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singh181

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Man, you lot dont get it.

Do i want to be an inbetweener?

Thats just the way it is. I cant suddenly become an amridhari and follow the rehat how it is supposed to be done. But I have been lucky enough to have been taught and have enough understanding to realise that kesh is a powerful and divine part of the human body.

This is the case for a lot of keshdhari sikhs like myself.

Are you suggesting I choose a side like guptkuri said. Either take amrit or cut my hair?

OK.

You are keeping your full hair.

You don't do any of the bujjar kurehts.

You hopefully take shower every morning, may be not at 5am, but you do. You probably have atleast 2 K's.

Whats missing then??

Daily nitnem and 3 more K's. How hard that is anyways??

If we can spend years and years in universities to make ourselves suitable to get job.

Why one should not fulfill the thirst for getting Guru's happiness?

A university certificate gives you qualification to get job and be certain for questionable time that you will be employed.

Certificate from Guru's university gives you this:

sqgur kI syvw Aiq suKwlI jo ieCy so Plu pwey ]

sathagur kee saevaa ath sukhaalee jo eishhae so fal paaeae ||

Serving the True Guru brings a deep and profound peace, and one's desires are fulfilled.

So why aim for less.

And in no way, I would ever suggest cutting hair.

If you are destined, sooner or later you will be made capable of fulfilling the thirst of your soul.

crn srin gur eyk pYfw jwie cl

charan saran gur eaek paiddaa jaae chala

siq gur koit pYfw Awgy hoie lyq hY ]

sath gur kott paiddaa aagae hoe laeth hai ||

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Man, you lot dont get it.

Do i want to be an inbetweener?

Thats just the way it is. I cant suddenly become an amridhari and follow the rehat how it is supposed to be done. But I have been lucky enough to have been taught and have enough understanding to realise that kesh is a powerful and divine part of the human body.

This is the case for a lot of keshdhari sikhs like myself.

Are you suggesting I choose a side like guptkuri said. Either take amrit or cut my hair?

you misunderstood me. I am saying if you keep your khes and don't take amrit and aren't very religious, then you shouldn't say you are keeping your khes for sikhi. At that point you might as will just cut your khes. If you do it for yourself, more power to you. If you keep your khes because you want to work towards Sikhi and become amritdhari, then its great and you have every right to say your doing to it because your a sikh.

you+sikhi = khes = good

you+ khes = sikhi, doesn't equal nothing. You can't just keep khes and claim your doing it for sikhi. Khes to mean anything towards sikhi, has to come from you wanting to be a better sikh.

I am sorry, I am just frustrated of all the people that look like they are sikhs, say they are sikhs but then go on to do stupid things to disgrace sikhi. I am not saying your one of them. I am just saying unless you working towards being a good sikh, don't claim you keep khes for sikhi.

sorry, for any hurt feelings.

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OK.

You are keeping your full hair.

You don't do any of the bujjar kurehts.

You hopefully take shower every morning, may be not at 5am, but you do. You probably have atleast 2 K's.

Whats missing then??

Daily nitnem and 3 more K's. How hard that is anyways??

If we can spend years and years in universities to make ourselves suitable to get job.

Why one should not fulfill the thirst for getting Guru's happiness?

A university certificate gives you qualification to get job and be certain for questionable time that you will be employed.

Certificate from Guru's university gives you this:

sqgur kI syvw Aiq suKwlI jo ieCy so Plu pwey ]

sathagur kee saevaa ath sukhaalee jo eishhae so fal paaeae ||

Serving the True Guru brings a deep and profound peace, and one's desires are fulfilled.

So why aim for less.

And in no way, I would ever suggest cutting hair.

If you are destined, sooner or later you will be made capable of fulfilling the thirst of your soul.

crn srin gur eyk pYfw jwie cl

charan saran gur eaek paiddaa jaae chala

siq gur koit pYfw Awgy hoie lyq hY ]

sath gur kott paiddaa aagae hoe laeth hai ||

Daily nitnem is out of the question. I dont even know punjabi. Even if i learn, I do not have that thirst for god. I wish i did but i simply dont. You got to have it if you want to be able to do your nitnem fruitfully. Otherwise there is no point.

I am not saying i will never take amrit. I am just saying I have not got the drive to do it. Only god can bless me with that if he wants. I am so distant that i cant even be willed to ask for that thirst meaningfully and from my heart. Amrit at this point in my life is out of the question.

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you misunderstood me. I am saying if you keep your khes and don't take amrit and aren't very religious, then you shouldn't say you are keeping your khes for sikhi. At that point you might as will just cut your khes. If you do it for yourself, more power to you. If you keep your khes because you want to work towards Sikhi and become amritdhari, then its great and you have every right to say your doing to it because your a sikh.

you+sikhi = khes = good

you+ khes = sikhi, doesn't equal nothing. You can't just keep khes and claim your doing it for sikhi. Khes to mean anything towards sikhi, has to come from you wanting to be a better sikh.

I am sorry, I am just frustrated of all the people that look like they are sikhs, say they are sikhs but then go on to do stupid things to disgrace sikhi. I am not saying your one of them. I am just saying unless you working towards being a good sikh, don't claim you keep khes for sikhi.

sorry, for any hurt feelings.

What is wrong with you?

Dont you understand I am doing it for 'MY' sikhi! I wrote that in a previous post. Sikhi is a personal journey and I am not claiming I am a sikh simply by keeping my kesh only. I am not saying I am some sort of martyr and I am keeping my kesh for 'everybodys' sikhi.

How do you know I am not working towards sikhi. What do you know about what is inside me? Why would I keep my kesh if there is not an ounce of something there in me? My mum tells me to shave my beard off all the time but i dont.

Moderators, please let this post up, i want this girl to understand her shortcomings. Thank you.

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Kalsingh Veer Ji,

I am sorry. I think we are on completely different pages. I had originally made the comment after I read you saying "If anything, it shows we are deeply concerned with sikhi i.e. turban and beard and the future of it." I just don't see keeping khes as concern for Sikhi, if you don't follow rehit. And on a few separate occasions you made comments about not being that much into Sikhi for various reasons. That is your personal issue. I just didn't like the comment that you were saying its your concern for Sikhi, like you said in your pervious post its concern for 'your' sikhi, not everyones. That was the point i am trying to get at. If it is for your personal spiritual journey more power to you, but please don't say your showing concern for sikhi in general by keeping khes. Sikhi is a personal experience.

I am not saying you should cut off your hair or take amrit. A person takes amrit when they are ready. I am just saying if you keep your hair just to represent Sikhs but don't follow rehit, then you might as will cut off your hair. The you in this comment is not direct towards you, kalsingh but every sikh.

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Kalsingh Veer Ji,

I am sorry. I think we are on completely different pages. I had originally made the comment after I read you saying "If anything, it shows we are deeply concerned with sikhi i.e. turban and beard and the future of it." I just don't see keeping khes as concern for Sikhi, if you don't follow rehit. And on a few separate occasions you made comments about not being that much into Sikhi for various reasons. That is your personal issue. I just didn't like the comment that you were saying its your concern for Sikhi, like you said in your pervious post its concern for 'your' sikhi, not everyones. That was the point i am trying to get at. If it is for your personal spiritual journey more power to you, but please don't say your showing concern for sikhi in general by keeping khes. Sikhi is a personal experience.

I am not saying you should cut off your hair or take amrit. A person takes amrit when they are ready. I am just saying if you keep your hair just to represent Sikhs but don't follow rehit, then you might as will cut off your hair. The you in this comment is not direct towards you, kalsingh but every sikh.

Seems as if you just want to have the last comment in. Just what is your problem? You want one up on me is that it? You have just repeated yourself and said nothing new. Some amritdhari you are. Letting your pride get in the way of a minor internet debate.

I am showing concern for 'my sikhi'. My personal experience of sikhi and other peoples in my boat. If you dont understand this than there is nothing more i can say.

Moderators, please do allow this comment. It is the last one i will be posting to guptkuri. May the guru bless her and get rid of her hankar.

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Veer Ji, I was not trying to get in the last comment and I probably shouldn't be commenting right now but I have to clarify a few things. I am asking for waheguru to give me the ability to stay quiet but so far I have gotten better but not all the way. Now getting to the point. I was done commenting but you brought me back in the conversation by mentioning me again, so I thought maybe you didn't understand me and I was just trying to word myself better. Idk. Sorry, If I said anything wrong.

Also, please don't say I am amritdhar, I am not worthy of that tittle. I am still trying to perfect my rehit and waiting for Waheguru Ji to give me the opportunity to take amrit. I hope to take amrit as soon as I can.

Please Veer Ji, menu apni choti bhen samaj ka maaf kardo.

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Kuriya are not gone anywhere, just somehow didn't click on the topic till now.

As most of you already know. I am already married amritdhari, but was not when I married (both were not).

So you can see all parts of the story through my eyes.

Would I have considered amritdhari when I was looking for a husband??

Answer: NO

??:: Why not

Answer: because I had no sikhi in me, except that I went to gurudwara every 2 months. went for langar or just for the sake of going to Gurudwara and matha tek, socialized, ate langar and came home and told mom who I met at Gurudwara.

So if I couldn't imagine what sikhi is about, how I was going to accept the person who was amritdhari and was following it. I was not going to be appreciative of him being amritdhari. And I was not strictly sikh myself, so I was not going to be changing for him. becaue I was in denial of following sikhi at that time.

Next question: Why didn't I marry a clean shaven so called sikh guy then

Answer: I didn't limit myself to clean shaven or full bearded guys, but somehow had this GoD given attraction for bearded guys only. I call it GoD's play to have me go in more sikhi oriented family than my parents family. So i call it destiny. I was destined to walk on this path of SIKHI, thats why Guru Sahib let me marry only my husband whose parents were already amritdhari and slowly slowly the effect of Gurbani being recited in house, changed us (me and my husband) as well.

Now to comment in general.

If girls are not going for you because you are amritdhari, the answer lies in the fact that they don't wanna be following sikhism to the book. They wanna be just going to Gurudwara, to Gurpurb celebrations to mingle, to socialize, so that they can pretend to belong to sikhism. They are afraid of following the rehat. They are afraid that this Amritdhari guy would change them and they don't wanna change.

Being actual follower of sikhism is to change your lifestyle to fit into sikhi principles, not to change sikhi to fit your lifestyle. But unfortunately, today's so called born-to-sikh-parents sikhs are doing the latter.

So my suggestion to these Amritdhari brothers would be to stop wasting time for these girls. They are not worth it.

Take it like this. Is a particular girl willing to give her head to GURU Sahib. iF answer is NO. then she is not worth it.

If yes, then she WOULD like to get to know you better and you should be flexible too to compromise on other things except sikhi principles.

Some of the amritdhari guys out there are too stuck on somethings as well. They want the perfect piece all ready to acquire for them. But when there is perfect piece, then they themselves fall short on somethings. The balance is being hard to achieve.

Don't consider yourself to be best either. Because there are girls out there who follow sikhism better than you may be, so kill this ego in you. if there is some girl out there worth considering, get to know her little better. Give the process time. Things dont' unfold in one day or months. everything takes time.

Rest as I always say. you will meet one day the one whose kids father you are going to be. So be patient. Leave things on GOD. Work on your sikhi as it never reaches perfection. There is always room for more to improve on.

And when time comes, a girl will fall into your plate :-))

Hi Amarjit,

You have made some excellent points. But your situation is different to that posed by the original question and the source of the debate. Perhaps you could comment on that?

For example, how many girls do you know that would be willing to marry a person with turban and beard (who is amritdhari or not as the case may be)?

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Veer Ji, I was not trying to get in the last comment and I probably shouldn't be commenting right now but I have to clarify a few things. I am asking for waheguru to give me the ability to stay quiet but so far I have gotten better but not all the way. Now getting to the point. I was done commenting but you brought me back in the conversation by mentioning me again, so I thought maybe you didn't understand me and I was just trying to word myself better. Idk. Sorry, If I said anything wrong.

Also, please don't say I am amritdhar, I am not worthy of that tittle. I am still trying to perfect my rehit and waiting for Waheguru Ji to give me the opportunity to take amrit. I hope to take amrit as soon as I can.

Please Veer Ji, menu apni choti bhen samaj ka maaf kardo.

Hi,

Now that you have both made up....lol

The original debate seems to have gone a bit stray - my question to you is how many girls do you know who would seriously want their husband to be one who wears and turban and beard as most responses received have been from males....? There are many in betweeners out there - these are not bad people - in fact some are even better than people who show to the outside world something and within themselves are something else.

Would be good to have some IN BETWEENER FEMALES comment too?????

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Hi Amarjit,

You have made some excellent points. But your situation is different to that posed by the original question and the source of the debate. Perhaps you could comment on that?

For example, how many girls do you know that would be willing to marry a person with turban and beard (who is amritdhari or not as the case may be)?

My situation is no different than what you are asking.

I just explained you what happened in reality and got married to a guy with full beard (khulli, not even tied) and full kesh on head as well. The guy who asked me before engagement if I would like to see him with cut hair one day and to whom I answered "you won't look good without hair". A lion wouldn't be a lion without its mane. Would it?? He asked me to cut my hair before we got serious about sikhi (after marriage), but I never asked him to do so.

To All the boys and girls with any kind of body hair questions,

When you ask this question on a forum like this or anywhere else, all it shows (what you think is your issue), is that it shows your low self-confidence. Its not others who can question your identity. Its you, yourself, questioning your own identity. It just shows how serious you take your guru's word. How committed you could be to your Guru and for the matter of fact, to anybody in your life.

Just imagine you without hair (there are tons to show you as an example). Can they say they are committed to Guru?? No way. You loose your hair, you loose the first gift Guru said to keep in tact. One bujjar kurehit. YOu amritdhari or not, doesn't matter. You are not getting Guru dee khushi. Guru da sikh hove, te apne God given body nu change karn nu firda hove. How is that possible? You just interfered with vassel that God gave you to reside in temporarily. And manmukh thought s/he could mess up with it. Your first sign of manmukhta. Don't ever consider yourself Gurmukh. YOu cann't be, if you deny to listen to father outright and do it every week or everyday.

I am girl with facial hair. My husband didn't divorce me yet (and I didn't divorce him either earlier nor plan to do later either). My kids didnt stop saying mommy to me. My parents still consider me their daughter. My employers are still keeping me as their employee. I still have friends (got lot more new ones after giving head to Guru). I walk with full pride.

Anyone ever stares, laughs off just becaue I have facial hair, I think about dhan dhan Guru gobind singh jee (Bahane naal Guru sahib nu yaad kar lainee aa, bhala hove stare/laugh karan vaale da). I don't need anyone else watching for me more than HIM. And its has been 2.5years moving around with hair.

No, I am not going offtopic. I am trying to answer three topics here under one topic (1) this topic, 2). 15year old boy in NY asking similar question 3) Girls who wanted to ask Sant Jagjit Singh jee about having laser therapy to remove hair before Amrit (SICKening, whom are you trying to fool?, Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh jee?? You are better without Amrit, wait until next lifetime until you get strong enough with your identity).

To come to your question.

If a girl ever questions your hair, the girl who doesn't see a person who would be committed to her as much as he is committed to his Guru, That girl doesn't deserve you. You are too good for her. Move on.

The right girl will show up one day (at the end you need only one anyways, rest of them come along to have some learning lesson hidden through meeting them). The lesser the better it is to keep your insanity.I am not blaming girls here to loose your insanity, but this whole boy girl thing is just not worth it. There are better things to do in life at your age than worrying about girls liking you.

You will get much more satisfaction from life if you devote your time at some community hospital taking care of some patients, or teaching punjabi/sikh history to some kids at your local Gurughar than spending a time with girl for dinner or at movies.

Explore life above looking attractive to girls.

Think about happiness of Our Gurus rather than looking attractive to girls or boys or whoever you are trying to please.

Weight out the options. Who is more important to you?? Your Guru or the other gender?

who is gonna stick with you longer?

who is the giver of all you got in your life??

who can solve all your problems if you just can have faith in you??

Always weigh out the options before you give into your mind's temptations.

And LOVE yourself the way GOD made you. Do not temper with your body in anyway.

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In case you guys didn't realize, life is a path on which we run after our priorities. Choose them wisely.

"singh181" and "Kalsingh"

I don't know what your priorities in life are, and honestly, I am not bothered or interested to know either because I don't care. Its your life, live it the way you want to. Its upto you guys if you want to prioritize girls or Sikhi. Trust me, not a single person on this forum has the time to bother about your decisions in life and drag you to court if you don't follow Sikhi in the best possible way. The people here are only trying to help you out, and are doing so in the best possible way, and in a way that they see as Gurmat, based upon the Sikhi knowledge they've been blessed with. If you don't want to listen, hey, feel free to log off this site, and God bless you. You want to continue keeping your hair, hey, God bless you with more strength. You want to cut your hair, again, that is your decision. None of us is getting a box of sweets if you guys end up as chardi kala Gurmukhs, and none of us is going to get fined if you ruin your life spiritually. The gain and loss is totally yours, the decisions you make in life are totally yours, so please stop sounding like the opinions expressed on this forum are going to decide your fate. I am sorry but you'd be really miserable if that was the case. The bibiyaan here are only giving you a bibi's point of view. It is absolutely alright if you don't agree with them, and since this is an online forum it is but natural to sometimes misunderstand as to what the other person really meant. I found it funny how the bibi apologizing for misunderstanding was actually accused of being hankari. What a judgment!

Once again, only Gurujee knows what exactly is someone's spiritual stage in terms of Sikhi. Whether you are a monna, or Amritdhari, or an "inbetween non-Amritdhari", only Gurujee can judge you. When your time comes, by His grace you will find your significant other. Until then, you are are advised, encouraged and requested to continue improving upon your Sikhi. If you choose to do so, great! If not, do you think I would scratch my head even once? Trust me, I won't.

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i feel bad for the UK sardars, if this is the case. here in the states the "clean shaven sikhs" are often the backward or unpars. The wealthiest and most educated around here are usually sardars, professions ranging from Finance to doctors to lawyers. Our identity makes us stick out, and we are the minority here, just as rehatvan singhs were in guru sahibs time. this forces us to develop very confident personalities or else we would be eaten alive here of we were not confident with our appearance. our girls that have even the slightest interest in sikhi here prefer sardars. and not just sikh girls but sardars get alot of appreciation from other races here as well.

so you can blame bollywood and the media for brainwashing the girls, but you cant blame them if you have nothing to offer. Again as pre mentioned in posts, education, character and personality development, and not having a desi goghar hanging over your belt will help alot. tie your dastars "sabat soorat" and do seva or your dhara, parkash or tied.

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I do apologise for calling guptkuri a hankari.

I felt she was trying to annoy me (I guess she wasnt) because she had just repeated exactly the same things as before. So I wanted to annoy her by saying what i said. I am calmed down now and realise the error of my ways.

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In case you guys didn't realize, life is a path on which we run after our priorities. Choose them wisely.

"singh181" and "Kalsingh"

I don't know what your priorities in life are, and honestly, I am not bothered or interested to know either because I don't care. Its your life, live it the way you want to. Its upto you guys if you want to prioritize girls or Sikhi. Trust me, not a single person on this forum has the time to bother about your decisions in life and drag you to court if you don't follow Sikhi in the best possible way. The people here are only trying to help you out, and are doing so in the best possible way, and in a way that they see as Gurmat, based upon the Sikhi knowledge they've been blessed with. If you don't want to listen, hey, feel free to log off this site, and God bless you. You want to continue keeping your hair, hey, God bless you with more strength. You want to cut your hair, again, that is your decision. None of us is getting a box of sweets if you guys end up as chardi kala Gurmukhs, and none of us is going to get fined if you ruin your life spiritually. The gain and loss is totally yours, the decisions you make in life are totally yours, so please stop sounding like the opinions expressed on this forum are going to decide your fate. I am sorry but you'd be really miserable if that was the case. The bibiyaan here are only giving you a bibi's point of view. It is absolutely alright if you don't agree with them, and since this is an online forum it is but natural to sometimes misunderstand as to what the other person really meant. I found it funny how the bibi apologizing for misunderstanding was actually accused of being hankari. What a judgment!

Once again, only Gurujee knows what exactly is someone's spiritual stage in terms of Sikhi. Whether you are a monna, or Amritdhari, or an "inbetween non-Amritdhari", only Gurujee can judge you. When your time comes, by His grace you will find your significant other. Until then, you are are advised, encouraged and requested to continue improving upon your Sikhi. If you choose to do so, great! If not, do you think I would scratch my head even once? Trust me, I won't.

Hey,

Your comment has gone wildly off the original debate and have focussed on myself and Kalsingh. We have not ever mentioned anything about cutting hair, so for you to bring this up is a bit crazy and bewildering to me. This is not about people feeling insecure about themselves.

This is one of the biggest problems with our religion. We tend to have digs against each other rather than live in peace and harmony.

I think we are all agreed that there is a problem with marriage in uk. Is it not time for people just to be honest? People might say don't link all this to religion. Well, the point that most people are missing is (including Amarjit Kaur) the lower the number of girls who agree to marry a Singh (with turban and beard - inbetweeners or not as the case may be), the less chance of future generations of children having turbans and beards. Now you may say - so what as a person with a turban and beard is not always perfect. That may be the case. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did say you will recongnise a Sikh from a crowd of thousands. In the UK, will this still stand to be true in 10/15/20/30 years time.??????? With the comments coming on this site, it may be so as everybody appears to be sleeping into thinking they have comfy lives, the car, the money etc...they have forgotten what sacrifices the Guru Ji's made for the hair and turban and have sought to blame one another and then got intertwinned with points that they sought to make on religion and then at times has got personal. It just shows that we cannot even have a sensible debate.

Is the future for UK Sikh's - Mixed marriages, more divorces, westernised individuals. Whites, Blacks/Muslims/Sikhs walking into gurdwaras with mixed children. Now I know the gurdwara is open to people from all cultures and backgrounds, but don't people think we ARE IN DANGER OF LOSING OUR SIKHI.

Lets have a proper open debate before its too late.

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Your comment has gone wildly off the original debate and have focussed on myself and Kalsingh. We have not ever mentioned anything about cutting hair, so for you to bring this up is a bit crazy and bewildering to me. This is not about people feeling insecure about themselves.
It was you who started this thread. You wanted opinions, and you got honest ones. If an honest opinion sounds "crazy and bewildering", that can't be blamed totally on the responder. Have you ever thought that maybe your question was of that nature? My reason to direct the post towards yourself and Kalsingh was because you both have greater number of posts in this thread, and I felt to address them. It was not intended as a personal attack.
This is one of the biggest problems with our religion. We tend to have digs against each other rather than live in peace and harmony.
The problem is in us, not in the religion. Sikhi isn't a religion to begin with, its a progressive developmental process in my opinion. You are free and most welcome to disagree but thats how I see it. What you see as "taking digs at each other" is, like I said, one person honestly stating their opinion which may not always be a personal attack.
I think we are all agreed that there is a problem with marriage in uk. Is it not time for people just to be honest? People might say don't link all this to religion. Well, the point that most people are missing is (including Amarjit Kaur) the lower the number of girls who agree to marry a Singh (with turban and beard - inbetweeners or not as the case may be), the less chance of future generations of children having turbans and beards. Now you may say - so what as a person with a turban and beard is not always perfect. That may be the case. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did say you will recongnise a Sikh from a crowd of thousands. In the UK, will this still stand to be true in 10/15/20/30 years time.???????
Only Vaheguru knows what the future has in store for the Khalsa Panth, but as Sikhs we should have faith that this is Gurujee's kaum, and no matter what happens we can't and won't be wiped off from the face of this planet.
With the comments coming on this site, it may be so as everybody appears to be sleeping into thinking they have comfy lives, the car, the money etc...they have forgotten what sacrifices the Guru Ji's made for the hair and turban and have sought to blame one another and then got intertwinned with points that they sought to make on religion and then at times has got personal. It just shows that we cannot even have a sensible debate.
I disagree here. No one is taking lightly the struggle we're facing as a community on various fronts. In fact, from the little that I know about people here, individuals are making their own individual efforts (be it on a small scale) to make a change, to educate both Sikhs and non-Sikhs alike about Sikhi and Gurmat. We don't need to debate over things that can be reached to a conclusion amicably through discussion, which is in fact the purpose of this forum.
Is the future for UK Sikh's - Mixed marriages, more divorces, westernised individuals. Whites, Blacks/Muslims/Sikhs walking into gurdwaras with mixed children. Now I know the gurdwara is open to people from all cultures and backgrounds, but don't people think we ARE IN DANGER OF LOSING OUR SIKHI.
In Khalsa Raj we're going to have Amritdhari Sikhs of all racial and ethic backgrounds. Please elaborate on how is that tantamount to losing Sikhi? If whites/blacks/Muslims choose to walk on the path of Gurmat by their own free will, I'd say that would cement the foundation of Sikhi. Gurdwara Sahibs being open to everyone is what Sikhi is all about.
Lets have a proper open debate before its too late.
Most of your concerns are genuine, but I think its discussion and not debating that needs to be done. However, thats just my opinion.

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