Krishna In Sikhism

[N30S1NGH]

Off course veer looking at the grand scheme of things- family histories are obviously irrelevant when it comes to bigger picture. But quote singh559 posted from sri sarbloh granth, maharaj is talking from social context, where lineage are considered in wider Indic culture just look at the time where guru maharaj took avtar..hardcore pandit fanatics refuse to listen to anyone who is not from their clan or higher clan..Vahiguroo ji sends his Guru avtar based on time, need, based on social environment around that time..off course clan does not matter when we look at bigger picture, as we have dhan dhan bhagat ravidas and other great saints (who are not necessarily from higher clan) bani in our sri guru granth sahib ji but when it comes to social status among pandits- Vahiguroo ji send Guru Avtar in highest clan in Indic society to break ahankar of these fanatic pandits ....its imperative, we look at things from social status and spiritual status don't mix it together otherwise we run into major issues and doubts. Guru Maharaj bani is never contradictory, its always our capacity to understand things in proper context.

Guru Maharaj gave us all the tools to fight hardcore pandit fanatics (as maharaj himself said khatri ko putt ho bhramin ko nahi to put pandits in its place !). Hence, they wrote about their lineage they belong to - bedi, sodhi and others in gurbani and glorified them so his sikhs can put back pandit bhramins in their place when neccessary by quoting guru maharaj great surya vanshi lineage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[UKLondonSikh]

^^^^^Paji i totally respect the sincerity of your viewpoint ... but pyaar naal I still honestly don't buy the theory that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj had to be born to the parents he was (in order to appease the fanatic Pandits upon highness of lineage issues) ... in essence, I genuinely believe these are fake stories appended on to distract us from the truth of what Guru Sahib's true message was.

I genuinely believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj pretty much exposed that SuryaVanshi lineage is no higher than any other by way of the fact Guru Sahib ate with Bhai Lalo Ji as opposed to the man of "supposed" high lineage Malik Bhago. To me that closes the case :-)

VJKK VJKF

[Sherdil]

^^^^^Paji i totally respect the sincerity of your viewpoint ... but pyaar naal I still honestly don't buy the theory that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj had to be born to the parents he was (in order to appease the fanatic Pandits upon highness of lineage issues) ... in essence, I genuinely believe these are fake stories appended on to distract us from the truth of what Guru Sahib's true message was.

I genuinely believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj pretty much exposed that SuryaVanshi lineage is no higher than any other by way of the fact Guru Sahib ate with Bhai Lalo Ji as opposed to the man of "supposed" high lineage Malik Bhago. To me that closes the case :-)

VJKK VJKF

Ditto. I thought all castes and lineages were supposed to be equal in the eyes of God. I don't think He would play favorites.

Let's not fall into the trap of assuming we understand God's plan. Only He knows why He does what He does.

This thinking is in realm of Abrahamic religions, where they believe that God is a guy in the sky making all these decisions. That isn't Sikhi.

[GPS]

If you read dasam granth sahib Guru sahib gives a message that offspring of king Rama indulged in war over material possesions

and finally were destroyed and left with only 20 villages.

Though Guru Nanak sahib was from same dynasty( Dyansty does not mean family), he gavea message of meditation to his followers

and his followers are flourshing. So the message is clear that caste has no significance.It is to follow path shown by Guru sahiban.

[chatanga]

A quick remimder...........Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj was about to put Bhai Sahib's Vaars in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, but out of humility Bhai Sahib said don't. Again fairy tales don't pass the test of Gurbani.

that is a fairy tale you've posted about Bhai Gurdas Ji. When Guru Sahib was dictating Adi Granth, the 15 Bhagats were sitting behind a screen, and as each of them read out their bani, it was written down. Bhai Gurdas Ji asked who is behind this screen? Guru Ji sadi the Bhagats are, but Bhai Gurdas instead of listening to and beleiving the Guru, lifted the screen to look for himself. So Guru Ji, because you didnt have faith in my answer, the vaaran of yours were to be included in the Adi Granth, but now they will form a seperate entity, and be the key to Gurbani.

Again fairy tales don't pass the test of Gurbani.

[KhalistaniGunMan]

Singh559 = Beautiful painting of devte coming to pay respects to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji :

UK = Paji whilst the painting might be artistically beautiful, this is why certain Sikhs who oppose portraits or photos in Gurdware hold the views we do. The painting indicates Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's divinity at birth ... as opposed to focussing on the truths that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj illuminated for the world through their bibek buddhi.

Singh559 = To further advance the discussion, n30 paaji, can you please further explain this line from Sarbloh Granth please?

UK = Sorry Paji i know the question wasn't aimed at me ... but the Bedi clan have no relavance to do with world spirituality and truthful living. In fact, way more corrupt people from that clan in percentage terms in direct contrast to Bhai Jaita Ji or Bhai Lalo Ji as two examples of greater virtuousness. In fact even to compare the two lineages from 1699 onwards probably insults Ranghrete. And this is part of why certain Sikhs do not hold faith in certain sections of DG. To do so is not to deny the importance of Amritdhari jeevan or to doubt for one second our Dashmesh Pitha ... but to have reason to believe that anti-Sikh forces wished to dilute the truth of Sikhi by interjecting irrelavant discourses within the spiritual conversation of Sikhi and Gurbani. Respect to those who believe in 100% of DG but equally those that hold the viewpoint that they have doubts about the authenticity of some sections of DG or SG have an equal faith in Dashmesh Pita and I think it's important that point is recognised. If we recognise that in all of our hearts then there is no way we can talk about the Panth splitting as many seek to portray. Both sides of the coin have utmost faith in Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and that's the truth of it (imho :-)

Anyone who doesnt accept Sri Dasam granth sahib ji and Sr Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji in their entirety do not love sri guru gobind singh ji as they reject his divine bani...simple!....the panth is already split with deep divisions ...and the panth divides even further with sikhs like you around who reject gurbani of dasmesh pita...your no better than the heretical missionary naastiks.....theres nothing more sickening than people who reject divine gurbani just because they cant stomach the reference to hindu devas and sakhis....i know exactly what group you belong to by your post..

[KhalistaniGunMan]

^^^^^Paji i totally respect the sincerity of your viewpoint ... but pyaar naal I still honestly don't buy the theory that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj had to be born to the parents he was (in order to appease the fanatic Pandits upon highness of lineage issues) ... in essence, I genuinely believe these are fake stories appended on to distract us from the truth of what Guru Sahib's true message was.

I genuinely believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj pretty much exposed that SuryaVanshi lineage is no higher than any other by way of the fact Guru Sahib ate with Bhai Lalo Ji as opposed to the man of "supposed" high lineage Malik Bhago. To me that closes the case :-)

VJKK VJKF

guru Nanak devji exposes suryavanshi lineage? lol...yet sri guru gobind singh ji claims lineage from sri raam chander ji himself in his divine bani

[N30S1NGH]

So coming back to this topic.

I totally agree that Sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale maha anand sagar katha of sri guru granth sahib ji katha should be offically declare an reference point in order to learn traditional Sikhi in the panth.

The problem is not with katha of sri guru granth sahib ji but the problem is actual listeners or readers who are trying to interpret gurbani, you have two extremes- protestant thought and sanatan thought propagated by some nihangs of uk (sikh hippy liberals).

Both extremes look at Gurbani not its totality but rather look at shabad, take them out of context to prove their thoughts or silly little flame wars.

I will give an very simple example of how their thought process function for eg- regarding subject of sargun hari avtars- position are held for or against (puran hari avtars- krishan and ram chandar ji).

Here is how their thought process:

Protestant thought: When it comes to puran hari avtars, they only see the glass- half empty (totaly ignore half full)

Snantan Thought (Sikh hippy liberals): When it comes to puran hari avtars, they only see the glass - half full (totally ignore half empty part)

Actual Gurmat thought:

When it comes to puran hari avtars, actual gurmat shows full view of the glass (half empty and half full).

Actual gurmat ways is to go through each shabad in gurbani, bhai gurdas ji varan, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth where it talks about avtars- a) go through uthanka of each shabd b) bhav arth of each shabad c) antriv arth of each shabad and then position held in each shabad. Position held in each shabad for puran hari avtars is different cannot be applied across the board- overall position in Gurmat.

After noting down all- position held in each shabad regarding puran hari avtars, anayalizing them carefully, then scholar can present with all their work with notes- overall position in Gurmat regarding puran hari avtars that our bhagats consider sargun saroop of Vahiguroo himself..!!!!!!!!!

So far, all the gyani samparda, nirmale and taksal upsamparda's, sevapanthis etc have all unanimously agreed - krishan maharaj is in sachkhand and vahiguroo ji came in sargun saroop of krishan and ram chand maharaj for its bhagats (bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji) , so they came in this conclusion after studying each position held in each shabad than after carefully analyzing each position held in various shabad regarding puran hari avtars- affirm an overall position held in Gurmat..

It's not job of sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale or any other mahapursh or teekakar to tell overall position held on various deep theological concept found in Gurmat but rather onus is on students to start making notes and study of them when they listen to gurbani lareevar katha of dhan dhan dhan sri guru granth sahib ji maharaj.

This seeing of full glass in its totality is not limited to complicated topics of avtars and Gurmat, but deep theological concept of sargun and nirgun and its upasana in Gurbani as well.

Personally speaking, i used to quote gurbani a lot to prove traditional gurmat thought in the past and sometimes get in heated debates (my own silliness). But I have stopped quoting from gurbani now in discussion as Gurbani is Agad Bodh very serene and divine to be engaged in debates..now at spare time, i m more inclined towards knowing- guru maharaj position held in each shabad..if position held from one shabad to another shabad are different on same subjects then affirm overall position by making notes and carefully anyalizing each shabad and position held in each shabad on various complicated concepts found in gurbani - sargun and nirgun form of Vahiguroo, sargun and nirgun devotion, shabad, naam and avtars in gurmat, bhagti,bhram gyan, atma-paratma etc.

It's best to discuss these complicated topics through theology as opposed to posting one or two lines from gurbani to prove your point as we may un-intentionly might be doing beadhi of gurbani of taking out of context.

[N30S1NGH]

guru Nanak devji exposes suryavanshi lineage? lol...yet sri guru gobind singh ji claims lineage from sri raam chander ji himself in his divine bani

Exactly veer, whilst in sikh bhagti these things does not matter but when engaging in social life or dealing with rss fanatics/hindu fanatics..we need to man up and tell these rss idiots - that our sikh dynasty/lineage is coming from satyuga and its anadi that we are more holy than you rss idiots...watch them giving you satkar and doo pooja of you then once they known our khatriya lineage..!!! ..what do we do instead? In insecurity we keep shying away from Gurmat by rejecting gurbani and become more more christianvadi/ferengi..lol and every kumb mela- nirmale beat these rss idiots and set up gurmat akhara...once nihangs tell them their khatriya traditions, rss fall on their feet and worship them when they see emobidement of shiv-vishnu-bhram-akaaal-kaal rooop..all in ONE AND ONLY KHALSA !!!!!!!!!

[JSinghnz]

N30SINGH,if someone has to come to learn how to go on and on like a broken record,

they could not find a better teacher than you.

On one hand, you state “Great quote Jsinghz veer, it just further proves how guru maharaj ji wanted us to rise above from fanatic sargun upasaks of sargun avtars to nirgun saroop of Vahiguroo Ji (all prevading!)..thats i have been saying all along in this thread. “

Then nek minute,” krishan maharaj is in sachkhand and vahiguroo ji came in sargun saroop of krishan and ram chand maharaj for its bhagats (bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji)

So what of simple English do you not understand when our Father Guru Gobind Singh ji

declares,

Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator. ||12|| (33 Sawayeas, Guru Gobind Singh Ji).

So please have some mercy on yourself and stop wasting your energy on these useless actions

And spend more time in remembering ONE WAHEGURU.