Why Are People Born Disabled?

[Bijla Singh]

When someone rapes someone, a new karma gets generated and this cycle will never end unless one learns to forgive. This is why becoming a guru-wala and living Gurmat lifestyle is so important. Karma is not always “<banned word filter activated> for tat”. In other words, a rape is not always the result of past life rape. It could be anything. Karma doesn’t always determine the exact outcome. Past karma puts one in a certain situation and all the subsequent events depend on one’s own choices which depend on present karma. For example, if person X hurt Y in past life and in present Y has the chance to get even, it will depend on Y to decide the course of action. It could be rape, murder, decapitating etc. If Y forgives X then karma ends there for Y but X will have to suffer some other way but in any other case a new karma will get generated and Y will have to suffer in future. Karma never stays static. If everything depended on past karma and there was no escape from it then that would leave all Gurbani principles useless. But such is not the case, Guru Rakha

[Sherdil]

No.

Are you serious with these questions bro?

What about Sudama? He was a Brahman, who was destitute. You do know who he is yeah?

Bro, I keep asking questions because you can't give me a straight answer. You have contradicted yourself with each response.

Guru Arjan was burned alive. Guru Tegh Bahadur was decapitated. The Saibzadey were killed. Was it because of their Karam? If you can tell me what Bhai Mardana was in his past life, then surely you can tell me what the Gurus and Sahibzadey did to deserve their fate.

By the way, Bhai Mardana was a Muslim. Therefore he wasn't part of any varna, as you have stated.

[Bijla Singh]

Bro, I keep asking questions because you can't give me a straight answer. You have contradicted yourself with each response.

Guru Arjan was burned alive. Guru Tegh Bahadur was decapitated. The Saibzadey were killed. Was it because of their Karam? If you can tell me what Bhai Mardana was in his past life, then surely you can tell me what the Gurus and Sahibzadey did to deserve their fate.

By the way, Bhai Mardana was a Muslim. Therefore he wasn't part of any varna, as you have stated.

They willfully sacrificed their lives to set an example for us. How does this relate to past karma in any way? Those who took part in torturing the physical body of Guru Sahib earned new karma and suffered hell for sure. It is a sheer misunderstanding to relate everything to past karma because it takes away freewill and man’s freedom of choice.

Caste and karma are not related. Caste is manmade according to which society is divided into hierarchy system. Karma can determine whether one will be born as a poor or a rich person regardless of caste. According to Gurmat, good karma is determined by how close a person is to Sikhi and Satguru. Material wealth plays no part in it.

Bhai Mardana Ji became a Sikh and kept rehat of Guru Sahib. He was cremated not buried. His son and nephew also became ragis in Guru Darbar. Guru Rakha

[Sherdil]

They willfully sacrificed their lives to set an example for us. How does this relate to past karma in any way? Those who took part in torturing the physical body of Guru Sahib earned new karma and suffered hell for sure. It is a sheer misunderstanding to relate everything to past karma because it takes away freewill and man’s freedom of choice.

Caste and karma are not related. Caste is manmade according to which society is divided into hierarchy system. Karma can determine whether one will be born as a poor or a rich person regardless of caste. According to Gurmat, good karma is determined by how close a person is to Sikhi and Satguru. Material wealth plays no part in it.

Bhai Mardana Ji became a Sikh and kept rehat of Guru Sahib. He was cremated not buried. His son and nephew also became ragis in Guru Darbar. Guru Rakha

What about when we say Hukame andhar sabh koh, bahar Hukam nah kohi. If everything is done by God then who is good and who is bad? Where does free will come into play?

How can karma decide who is born rich or poor. What use is money, when Guru Sahib has told us that money is of no use after we die. How is money any kind of reward. If anything, it makes you more attached to Maya because you have the ability to purchase materialistic things.

Bhai Mardana was still born a Muslim. Therefore, he was not born into a lower varna as Chatanga stated.

[Sherdil]

Guru Tegh Bahadur and the elder Sahibzadey gave their lives willingly.

Guru Arjan was arrested by the Moghuls and the younger Sahibzadey were captured and buried in a brick wall.

You have said that If person X hurts person Y, then person Y has an opportunity to get even with person X in the next life. If person Y takes revenge, then the karmic cycle continues. If person Y doesn't take revenge, then he doesn't attain any bad karma, but person X keeps on suffering until he can do something to make up for it.

How do you know that Guru Arjan didn't do something bad to his torturers in his past life? By your logic, maybe God gave the torturers an opportunity to get even. Where does one karmic cycle begin and another end.

DISCLAIMER: THE GURUS AND SAHIBZADEY DID NOT DESERVE THEIR FATE. THEY DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG. THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY BAD KARAM. THEY WERE BETTER SIKHS THAN ALL OF US. THEY HAVE MY UTMOST RESPECT.

[Bijla Singh]

What about when we say Hukame andhar sabh koh, bahar Hukam nah kohi. If everything is done by God then who is good and who is bad? Where does free will come into play?

Do you know what Hukam really means? Don’t interpret it as a direct command like in Semitic faiths. Being everything in Hukam means everything operates according to laws and rules set by God. Karma is also a system within Hukam. When Guru Sahib says that as you sow so shall you reap it refers to freedom of choice. One cannot rape someone and then claim that God did it. God’s laws are very clear that if one does rape they will suffer the consequences. This is His Hukam.

How can karma decide who is born rich or poor.

How else do you explain one having all the luxuries of life and one living in poverty? Why is there randomness and why is God being unfair to the poor ones for no reason? Gurbani is clear that karma is behind all of this.

What use is money, when Guru Sahib has told us that money is of no use after we die.

But that doesn’t negate the fact that one is born in a rich family due to past good deeds.

How is money any kind of reward. If anything, it makes you more attached to Maya because you have the ability to purchase materialistic things.

I never said money is a reward. If one lives according to Gurmat then they can use the money for good and they will have less things to worry about and focus more on simran.

How do you know that Guru Arjan didn't do something bad to his torturers in his past life? By your logic, maybe God gave the torturers an opportunity to get even. Where does one karmic cycle begin and another end.

First of all, it is Guru Arjan Dev Ji. At least write the full name. The reason Guru Sahib did not suffer due to past karma is because Gurbani states:

ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਘਰਿ ਕੀਅਉ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਾ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੀ ਆਸਾ ॥

ਤੈ ਜਨਮਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਓ ॥

This means that Guru Sahib realized Gurmat and God at birth. Anyone with bad past karma cannot achieve this state at birth. This leads to the conclusion that He was an enlightened soul that came to earth born in the house of Guru Raamdas Ji and Bibi Bhaani Ji both of whom were great gursikhs not ordinary people. He came to lead the Sikh community not suffer. Further, He lived his life according to Sikh ideals and had all the God-like attributes. This means he had no “bad karma” to begin with. Even if for the sake of argument I assume that He had some “bad karma” then it would’ve been erased and completely exhausted due to His noble lifestyle. What evidence do you have to suggest that Guru Sahib had a past karma accumulated? And what evidence do you have to show that His past karma did not get exhaust even after obeying the Satguru with all humbleness and utmost devotion? Even today Panj Pyare tell new Amritdharis that their past karam, birth, caste, sins etc. all have been erased and it holds true as long as they live according to Gurmat. Based on this, I can safely declare that when Guru Arjan Dev Ji took naam from Satguru Raamdas Ji, His past karmas were erased. Therefore, He could not have suffered due to any past karma because He did not have any. Also, He would not have been called first and leaders of martyrs of Sikhism. I find it ridiculous that due to sangat of a few days a Sikh’s karma could change from death sentence to a thorn but Guru Sahib’s karma could not be reduced. Satguru is controller of everything and He is free from karma. He runs karma system and changes karmas of Sikhs but not bound by it. Study Gurbani first to understand who Satguru really is before bringing Him down to human level.

Karma cycle ends with grace of Satguru when one becomes united with God. Do you not read Jap Ji Sahib everyday that states: ਕਰਮੀ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥

Gurbani states ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਜਨਮੇ ਗਵਨੁ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ॥ Guru Rakha

[Beginner]

SHerdill, no point talking about the karam of Guru Ji vecause they werre ABOVE this syustem. forget where i saw the post but when people reach a certain avastha, they are above good and bad deeds, out of karam! Guru Ji willingly did everything. No diff. between them and God, they themselves were determingin peoples' karam so y wud they be bound by it?

[Sherdil]

Do you know what Hukam really means? Don’t interpret it as a direct command like in Semitic faiths. Being everything in Hukam means everything operates according to laws and rules set by God. Karma is also a system within Hukam. When Guru Sahib says that as you sow so shall you reap it refers to freedom of choice. One cannot rape someone and then claim that God did it. God’s laws are very clear that if one does rape they will suffer the consequences. This is His Hukam.

I agree that Hukam is the law of the Universe. Karma is cause and effect. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is a law of physics. I get that.

How else do you explain one having all the luxuries of life and one living in poverty? Why is there randomness and why is God being unfair to the poor ones for no reason? Gurbani is clear that karma is behind all of this.

Gurbani states that we return because we have karam to make up for. It doesn't state what we come back as, nor does it state that the karam from our past life plays any interference in our current life. We simply come back to try again.

What evidence do you have to suggest that Guru Sahib had a past karma accumulated? And what evidence do you have to show that His past karma did not get exhaust even after obeying the Satguru with all humbleness and utmost devotion?

Lol. Didn't you read my disclaimer? I am not saying Guru ji suffered due to past karam.

Karma cycle ends with grace of Satguru when one becomes united with God. Do you not read Jap Ji Sahib everyday that states: ਕਰਮੀ ਆਪੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਕੇ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥

"Karmi aapae aapni, kahi nehre kahi dhoor." Your karma is in your own hands. It brings you closer or farther from God.

Gurbani states ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਜਨਮੇ ਗਵਨੁ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ॥ Guru Rakha

"Sat gur kae janamae, gavan mitayah". Born into the guru's home, my reincarnation has ended.

This was written by Guru Nanak. It means that those who realize Waheguru do not have to go through the cycle of birth and death again. He has realized God, therefore he has freed himself from this cycle.

[panther]

Sherdil bro i think what Bijla Singh veer + Beginner bro was saying is that it doesn't apply to Guru Sahibs as they were totally Supreme no doubt and that rape is excluded as a punishment method for bad past lives. But when ordinary Sikhs become disabled or shaheed it happens because of our leaders which resulted in the innocent ordinary Sikhs getting killed or being born disabled.

Also chatanga veer was right about Bhai Mardana Ji's caste. In Pakistani Punjab the Mirasi caste are called Kanjars because the menfolk do music and the women are passed around as hoe's in places like Heera Mandi in Lahore. So before Bhai Mardana Ji became Sikh and wiped out his old caste origins the high caste Muslims would spit on people of Mirasi/Kanjar caste and wouldn't allow them to enter mosques. Because the Kanjar tribe have always been hated by Muslims, so much that it became a swear word.

But Sherdil bro i agree with you that Bhai Mardana Ji didn't deserve caste discrimination like being spit upon by the Muslims just because peeps think that he was an evil sinner in his previous life. The thing is for him to be the 1st Sikh and the closest companion of Guru Nanak Dev Ji (which is as high a blessing as any1 could hope for!!!) the whole thing about him sinning in his previous life doesn't really make much sense

[chatanga]

What about when we say Hukame andhar sabh koh, bahar Hukam nah kohi. If everything is done by God then who is good and who is bad? Where does free will come into play?

Bhai Mardana was still born a Muslim. Therefore, he was not born into a lower varna as Chatanga stated.

Free will is what all human beings have but this free will doesnt mean that we dont have any good or bad karma from our past lives. I have free will but certain events took place in my life that stopped me from acheiving certain things in my life. I tried my best, but it just wasnt to be. So i just try to be the best Sikh i can and stay in santokh and accept hukam.

Bhai Mardana and all othe muslim converts from hinduism, especially the lower castes, never shook off their varan or caste once they became muslims. The muslims of the higher castes still avoid them whenever possible. And yes it still happens today in Pakistan.

Bro, I keep asking questions because you can't give me a straight answer. You have contradicted yourself with each response.

i can't see where, if you could point it out i would be obliged.