Amritdhari, non-amritdhari.

[Mehtab Singh]

Im still not sure i understand bibek but ive learned it depends on the individual keeping it and what their interpretation of it is. From being 100% against it im now 50-50 as I try to understand why people keep it. Although some people definitely take it over the top.

The following situation always comes to mind when talking about this subject

I was attending a function where there were Amritdharis and non-Amritdharis alike and the food was being served by Amritdharis, naturally. After finishing my food my empty tray was on the table , some Amritdharis sat down to eat, one had a drink poured for themselves and it ever so slightly touched my empty tray and they refused to drink it as if it had now been tainted or poisoned in some way.

I was quite shocked and it actually made me feel quite down. I felt worthless.

My point is other peoples empty trays had been right where the glass was, droplets of food had been spilled there, they could well have been from a used tray.

I know what jhooth is but what was this??

What makes this situation go against bibek??

What was now wrong with the drink??

You should have asked them to explain right there and then.

[MrDoaba]

You should have asked them to explain right there and then.

I did Veer Ji, i was ignored.

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

Doston Dekhaa Tamaasha Yahaan Ka, Bass

Tum Raho Yahaan Hum To Apne Ghar Challe

bai

[Mehtab Singh]

I did Veer Ji, i was ignored.

Then that is a shame that some folks follow Rehit without nimarta and don't even have the courtesy to explain why they do what they do, and don't even know what it is they are adhering to. It can be rotten from both sides. Some (not all) who claim to be Bibeki can (at times) be arrogant and look down on others (who are not Bibeki). Others who can't keep Bibek (due to their own weakness) end up mocking the Rehit outright. Both are misled, both are screwed up! The moment you lose nimarta, you lose the Anand of keeping Rehit. Be firm in your Rehit, but that doesn't mean you're insensitive and mean to others and don't even have the decency to explain.

[N30S1NGH]

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/68340-some-thoughts-on-breaking-hearts/?p=552075

I made similiar post on this topic..take whatever you will..!!

Satguru maharaj has its own amazing way of testing his sikhs to ensure his sikhs dristhi is sam dristhi. Sarbloh bibek is aligned with Gurmat there is no doubt and Sarbloh Bibek itself is NOT on clash course with sikh having sam dristht, as bibek has many levels true bibek are applied accordingly,

but what's on clash course is rather the mindset which have turned beautiful sargun rituals/devotion in sikhism including sarbloh bibek into dogma by one confining themselves/wrapping their head around it.

Sarbloh bibek just like other sargun rituals in the panth- shastar namaskar, raag kirtan, arti arta of sri guru granth sahib ji, danduth bandhana to sri guru granth sahib ji, kirtan bhakti, seva, dhof, jot, x number of patts, x of days in chalisa, x number of samagams, x number of rehansbhai, x number of hours of kirtan, x numbers of akhand patt sahib, x number of sehaj patt are landmarks in the marg towards vahiguroo which invokes devotion, bairaag and spike of prem in you but they are not the destination, they are landmarks which are suppose to help you to connect to nirgun saroop of vahiguroo (which is sarabvypak chaitan saroop) which can be only realized by Gurparsad and vision of sam dristhi- one vision if you cannot see god in all, you cannot see god at all, if one feels they are not slowing transcendenting towards nirgun saroop of vahiguroo via naam/gyan- sam dristhi then these sargun rituals are nothing but road blocks which maharaj has truly did khandan during that time - rose perception of all katar muslaman, fanatic pandits around that time from sargun into nirgun shabad gyan.

So at the end, each one of us are different states, avastha and perceptions/perceive vahiguroo ji differently some are more sargun in nature, some are more nirgun/sargun in nature, some perceive gyan saroop of nirgun, some perceive shabad saroop of nirgun, some perceive sargun saroop of nirgun..we all have different perceptions Just because sarbloh bibek helps one person, does not mean it automatically will help next person, same thing just because sarbloh bibek does not help one does not mean it will not help anyone else. That mindset is wrong..all the rituals are meant to help its just depending on different avastha within sikhs some rituals help more than others, thats all. Even sant mahapursh divine experiences (not talking about bhramgyan, bhramgyan is ONE) i am talking about divine experiences in mahapursh life are different some see- sri guru nanak dev nirankar partakh jot (Sargun saroop of nirgun) in dhan dhan sri guru granth sahib ji, some see sargun shabad saroop in dhan dhan dhan sri guru granth sahib ji and some see gyan saroop of nirgun- atamsaroop and some see gurbani agami nirgun saroop in dhan dhan dhan sri guru granth sahib ji.

I will end with sri akaal ustat kabith

ਸਿਜਦੇ ਕਰੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਤੋਪਚੀ ਕਪਟ ਭੇਸ ਪੋਸਤੀ ਅਨੇਕ ਦਾ ਨਿਵਾਵਤ ਹੈ ਸੀਸ ਕੌ ॥

सिजदे करे अनेक तोपची कपट भेस पोसती अनेक दा निवावत है सीस कौ ॥

If the Lord is pleased by prostrating before Him, then the gunner full of deceit bows his head several times while igniting the gun and the addict acts in the same manner in intoxication.

ਕਹਾ ਭਇਓ ਮੱਲ ਜੌ ਪੈ ਕਾਢਤ ਅਨੇਕ ਡੰਡ ਸੋ ਤੌ ਨ ਡੰਡੌਤ ਅਸਟਾਂਗ ਅਥਿਤੀਸ ਕੌ ॥

कहा भइओ म्ल जौ पै काढत अनेक डंड सो तौ न डंडौत असटांग अथितीस कौ ॥

What, then, if the wrestler bends his body several times during his rehearsal of exercises, but that is not the prostration of eight parts of the body.

ਕਹਾ ਭਇਓ ਰੋਗੀ ਜੋ ਪੈ ਡਾਰਿਓ ਰਹਿਓ ਉਰਧ ਮੁਖ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਨ ਮੂੰਡ ਨਿਹੁਰਾਇਓ ਆਦਿ ਈਸ ਕੌ ॥

कहा भइओ रोगी जो पै डारिओ रहिओ उरध मुख मन ते न मूंड निहुराइओ आदि ईस कौ ॥

What, then, if the patient lies down with his face upwards, he has not bowed his head before the Primal Lord with single-mindedness.

ਕਾਮਨਾ ਅਧੀਨ ਸਦਾ ਦਾਮਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਬੀਨ ਏਕ ਭਾਵਨਾ ਬਿਹੀਨ ਕੈਸੇ ਪਾਵੈ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਕੌ ॥੯॥੭੯॥

कामना अधीन सदा दामना प्रबीन एक भावना बिहीन कैसे पावै जगदीस कौ ॥९॥७९॥

But one always subservient to desire and active in telling the beads of the rosary, and also without faith, how can he realize the Lord of the world? 9.79.

ਸੀਸ ਪਟਕਤ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਕਾਨ ਮੈ ਖਜੂਰਾ ਧਸੈ ਮੂੰਡ ਛਟਕਤ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਸੌਕ ਸੋਂ

सीस पटकत जा के कान मै खजूरा धसै मूंड छटकत मित्र पुत्र हूं के सौक सों

If the Lord is realized by knocking the head, then that person repeatedly knocks his head, in whose ear the centipede enters and if the Lord meets by beating the head, then one beats his head in grief over the death of friends or sons.

ਆਕ ਕੋ ਚਰਯਾ ਫਲ ਫੂਲ ਕੋ ਭਛਯਾ ਸਦਾ ਬਨ ਕੌ ਭ੍ਰਮਯਾ ਔਰ ਦੂਸਰੋ ਨ ਬੋਕ ਸੋਂ ॥

आक को चरया फल फूल को भछया सदा बन कौ भ्रमया और दूसरो न बोक सों ॥

If the Lord is realized by wandering in the forest, then there is none other like the he-goat, who grazes the akk (Calotropis Procera), eats the flowers and fruit and always wanders in the forest.

ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਭੇਡ ਜਉ ਘਸਤ ਸੀਸ ਬ੍ਰਿਛਨ ਸੋਂ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਛਯਾ ਬੋਲ ਪੂਛ ਲੀਜੈ ਜੋਕ ਸੋਂ ॥

कहा भयो भेड जउ घसत सीस ब्रिछन सों माटी के भछया बोल पूछ लीजै जोक सों ॥

If the Lord meets by rubbing the head with the trees in order to remove drowsiness, then the sheep always rubs its head with the trees and if the Lord meets by eating the earth, then you can ask the leech.

ਕਾਮਨਾ ਅਧੀਨ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮੈਂ ਪ੍ਰਬੀਨ ਏਕ ਭਾਵਨਾ ਬਿਹੀਨ ਕੈਸੇ ਭੇਟੈ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਸੋਂ ॥੧੦॥੮੦॥

कामना अधीन काम क्रोध मैं प्रबीन एक भावना बिहीन कैसे भेटै परलोक सों ॥१०॥८०॥

How can one meet the Lord in the next world, who is subservient to desire, active in lust and anger and without faith? 10.80.

ਨਾਚਿਓ ਈ ਕਰਤ ਮੋਰ ਦਾਦਰ ਕਰਤ ਸੋਰ ਸਦਾ ਘਨਘੋਰ ਘਨ ਕਰਿਓ ਈ ਕਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

नाचिओ ई करत मोर दादर करत सोर सदा घनघोर घन करिओ ई करत हैं ॥

If the Lord is realised by dancing and shouting, then pecock dances, the frog croaks and the clouds thunder.

ਏਕ ਪਾਇ ਠਾਢੇ ਸਦਾ ਬਨ ਮੈ ਰਹਤ ਬ੍ਰਿਛ ਫੂਕ ਫੂਕ ਪਾਵ ਭੂਮਿ ਸ੍ਰਾਵਗ ਧਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

एक पाइ ठाढे सदा बन मै रहत ब्रिछ फूक फूक पाव भूमि स्रावग धरत हैं ॥

If the Lord meets by standing on one leg, then the tree stands on one foot in the forest, and if the Lord meets on observing non-violence, then the Sravak (aina monk) places his feet very cautiously on the earth.

ਪਾਹਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਜੁਗ ਏਕ ਠਉਰ ਬਾਸੁ ਕਰੈ ਕਾਗ ਅਉਰ ਚੀਲ ਦੇਸ ਦੇਸ ਬਿਚਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

पाहन अनेक जुग एक ठउर बासु करै काग अउर चील देस देस बिचरत हैं ॥

If the Lord is realised by not moving from one place or by wandering, then the stone remains at one place for many ages and the crow and kite continue wandering in several countries.

ਗਿਆਨ ਕੇ ਬਿਹੀਨ ਮਹਾ ਦਾਨ ਮੈ ਨ ਹੂਜੈ ਲੀਨ ਭਾਵਨਾ ਬਿਹੀਨ ਦੀਨ ਕੈਸੇ ਕੈ ਤਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥੧॥੮੧॥

गिआन के बिहीन महा दान मै न हूजै लीन भावना बिहीन दीन कैसे कै तरत हैं ॥१॥८१॥

When a person without knowledge cannot merge in the Supreme Lorrd, then how can these devoid of trust and faith ferry across the world-ocean?11.81.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਸ੍ਵਾਂਗੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਜੋਗੀਆ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਬਨੈ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਸਨਿਆਸ ਭੇਸ ਬਨ ਕੈ ਦਿਖਾਵਈ ॥

जैसे एक स्वांगी कहूं जोगीआ बैरागी बनै कबहूं सनिआस भेस बन कै दिखावई ॥

Just as an actor sometimes becomes a Yogi, sometimes a Bairagi (recluse) and sometimes shows himself in the guise of a Sannyasi (mendicant).

ਕਹੂੰ ਪਉਨਹਾਰੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਬੈਠੇ ਲਾਇ ਤਾਰੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਲੋਭ ਕੀ ਖੁਮਾਰੀ ਸੌ ਅਨੇਕ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਈ ॥

कहूं पउनहारी कहूं बैठे लाइ तारी कहूं लोभ की खुमारी सौ अनेक गुन गावई ॥

Sometimes he becomes a person subsisting on air, sometimes sits observing abstract meditation and sometimes under the intoxication greed, sings praises of many kinds.

ਕਹੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਚਾਰੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਹਾਥ ਪੈ ਲਗਾਵੈ ਬਾਰੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਡੰਡ ਧਾਰੀ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਲੋਗਨ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਵਈ ॥

कहूं ब्रहमचारी कहूं हाथ पै लगावै बारी कहूं डंड धारी हुइ कै लोगन भ्रमावई ॥

Sometimes he becomes a Brahmchari (student observing celibacy), sometimes shows his promptness and sometimes becoming a staff- bearing hermit deludes the people.

ਕਾਮਨਾ ਅਧੀਨ ਪਰਿਓ ਨਾਚਤ ਹੈ ਨਾਚਨ ਸੋਂ ਗਿਆਨ ਕੇ ਬਿਹੀਨ ਕੈਸੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲੋਕ ਪਾਵਈ ॥੧੨॥੮੨॥

कामना अधीन परिओ नाचत है नाचन सों गिआन के बिहीन कैसे ब्रहम लोक पावई ॥१२॥८२॥

He dances becoming subordinate to passions; how will he be able to attain an entry into Lord`s Abode without knowledge?.12.82.

ਪੰਚ ਬਾਰ ਗੀਦਰ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਪਰੇ ਸੀਤਕਾਲ ਕੁੰਚਰ ਅਉ ਗਦਹਾ ਅਨੇਕਦਾ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਹੀਂ ॥

पंच बार गीदर पुकारे परे सीतकाल कुंचर अउ गदहा अनेकदा पुकार हीं ॥

If the jackal howls for five times, then either the winter sets in or there is famine, but nothing happens if the elephant trumpets and <banned word filter activated> brays many times. (Similarly the actions of a knowledgeable person are fruitful and those of an ignorant one are fruitless).

ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਜੋ ਪੈ ਕਲਵਤ੍ਰ ਲੀਓ ਕਾਸੀ ਬੀਚ ਚੀਰਿ ਚੀਰਿ ਚੋਰਟਾ ਕੁਠਾਰਨ ਸੋ ਮਾਰ ਹੀ॥

कहा भयो जो पै कलवत्र लीओ कासी बीच चीरि चीरि चोरटा कुठारन सो मार ही॥

If one observes the ritual of sawing at Kashi, nothing will happen, because a chief is slayed and sawed several times with axes.

ਕਹਾ ਭਇਉ ਫਾਸੀ ਡਾਰਿ ਬੂਡਿਓ ਜੜ ਗੰਗਧਾਰਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਫਾਸਿ ਠਗ ਮਾਰਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਡਾਰ ਹੀਂ ॥

कहा भइउ फासी डारि बूडिओ जड़ गंगधारि डारि डारि फासि ठग मारि मारि डार हीं ॥

If a fool, with a noose around his neck, is drowned on the current of Ganges, nothing will happen, because several times the dacoits kill the wayfarer by putting the noose around his neck.

ਡੂਬੇ ਨਰਕ ਧਾਰਿ ਮੂੜ੍ਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਕੇ ਬਿਨਾ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਭਾਵਨਾ ਬਿਹੀਨ ਕੈਸੇ ਗਿਆਨ ਕੋ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਹੀਂ ॥੧੩॥੮੩॥

डूबे नरक धारि मूड़्ह गिआन के बिना बिचार भावना बिहीन कैसे गिआन को बिचार हीं ॥१३॥८३॥

The fools have drowned in the current of hell without deliberations of knowledge, because how can a faithless person comprehend the concepts of knowledge?.13.83.

ਤਾਪ ਕੇ ਸਹੇ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਪੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਤਾਪ ਨਾਥ ਤਾਪਨਾ ਅਨੇਕ ਤਨ ਘਾਇਲ ਸਹਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

ताप के सहे ते जो पै पाईऐ अताप नाथ तापना अनेक तन घाइल सहत हैं ॥

If the Blissful Lord is realised by the endurance of sufferings, then a wounded person endures several types of sufferings on his body.

ਜਾਪ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਪੈ ਪਾਯਤ ਅਜਾਪ ਦੇਵ ਪੂਦਨਾ ਸਦੀਵ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਉਚਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

जाप के कीए ते जो पै पायत अजाप देव पूदना सदीव तुहीं तुहीं उचरत हैं ॥

If the unmutterable Lord can be realised by the repetition of His Name, then a small bird called pudana repeats "Tuhi, Tuhi" (Thou art everyting) all the time.

ਨਭ ਕੇ ਉਡੇ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਪੈ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਪਾਈਯਤ ਅਨਲ ਅਕਾਸ ਪੰਛੀ ਡੋਲਬੋ ਕਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

नभ के उडे ते जो पै नाराइण पाईयत अनल अकास पंछी डोलबो करत हैं ॥

If the Lord can be realised by flying in the sky, then the phonix always flies in the sky.

ਆਗ ਮੈ ਜਰੇ ਤੇ ਗਤਿ ਰਾਂਡ ਕੀ ਪਰਤ ਕਰਿ ਪਤਾਲ ਕੇ ਬਾਸੀ ਕਿਉ ਭੁਜੰਗ ਨ ਤਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥੧੪॥੮੪॥

आग मै जरे ते गति रांड की परत करि पताल के बासी किउ भुजंग न तरत हैं ॥१४॥८४॥

If the salvation is attained by burning oneself in fire, then the woman burning herself on the funeral pyre of her husband (Sati) should get salvation; and if one achieves liberation by residing in a cave, then why the serpents residing in the nether-world do not attain liberation?.14.84.

[MrDoaba]

Then that is a shame that some folks follow Rehit without nimarta and don't even have the courtesy to explain why they do what they do, and don't even know what it is they are adhering to. It can be rotten from both sides. Some (not all) who claim to be Bibeki can (at times) be arrogant and look down on others (who are not Bibeki). Others who can't keep Bibek (due to their own weakness) end up mocking the Rehit outright. Both are misled, both are screwed up! The moment you lose nimarta, you lose the Anand of keeping Rehit. Be firm in your Rehit, but that doesn't mean you're insensitive and mean to others and don't even have the decency to explain.

Spot on!! Thankfully like i said im no longer 100% against it and im gonna try to continue to understand it further and i hope those who do keep it try to understand themselves why they are keeping it then it will be happy days! :D

[MrDoaba]

The way I see it is someone's jeevan, whether they are or aren't a Sikh, is more important. If someone has prem for Waheguru/God/Ram/Allah and does kirat kamai I think it's okay to eat from them.

I don't follow strict bibek though so I can be wrong.

You've reminded me of a story from when i used to watch Ramayan on t.v. I only vaguely remember it; Raam and Lakshman visit this old lady who has a lot of sharda in her heart towards Raam. She hand picks fruit before his arrival and takes a bite out of each one to ensure they get only the sweetest. When she offers it to Raam, Lakshman points out its jhoota but Raam still eats it and says something about prem and sharda.

Just a thought...

P.S. Ramayan was brilliant!

[Mehtab Singh]

Her name was Shabri, and Ram ate fruits which she had already tasted, i.e. they were joothhay, because she wanted to make sure she offered only the sweet ones. That is the height of true love! Its all about avastha. Having said that, no compromise should be made on Rehit, and at the same time one should never let go of nimarta and be ready to share and discuss with anyone who may be interested to learn and improve. Its a very thin line between fanaticism and shardha, between arrogance and nimarta. Gursikh should be wise enough to walk the "khanneyo tikhee vaalon nikkee" path of Gurmat.

[Sherdil]

Why would Guru Nanak need to give Bhai Lalo Naam? Lalo was already honest and hardworking. That is why Guru ji preferred his food over Malik Bhago's.Thats what Satguru does. He gives Naam. Guru Sahib took tours for the purpose of giving Naam to everyone not to find hardworking people to eat from. Eating food was never his concern to begin with. While honesty and hard work are important, one need to practice these within Gurmat otherwise one can sell tobacco and liquor and call himself an honest hard worker. At the same time, one can reveal secret information about Singhs to government authorities and claim to be truthful. Gurmat defines what honesty means and how it is to be practiced. Being an honest and hardworking doesnt negate the fact that one needs to have Naam to become mukat. This is the emphasis of Gurbani in almost every shabad. It is entirely your lack of understanding of Gurmat that prevents you from seeing the truth. Dont blame the Janamsakhis.Are non-amritdharis unhygenic?Are they?Do their sins rub off on the food?Anything done by physical body affects the mind. I have already proved it in the provided link in the last post.This is not a topic for behas. One needs to practice it to understand it and experience it. Gurmat is not understood by study but by practice. If you dont practice it, you will never get it. Guru Rakha

You have missed the point of the saakhi.

Bhai Lalo was not the one in need of Naam. It was Malik Bhago.

When Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana arrived in Saidpur, they passed by Bhai Lalo's workshop. Lalo put down what he was doing, and rushed to serve them. In those times to give a holy person food, drink and a place to stay was thought to bring blessings. Guru ji stayed with Bhai Lalo for some time.

Malik Bhago, a government official, learned of Guru ji's presence in the city and invited him to a grand feast. Guru Nanak initially declined, but finally relented under the persistence of Malik Bhago.

When Guru ji and Bhai Mardana arrived, Malik Bhago saw that they had brought Bhai Lalo with them. He was furious, that a low caste carpenter was brought to his feast. Guru ji told Malik Bhago that his wealth was attained by sucking the blood the poor. Guru ji asked, why he should partake in a feast of blood, when Bhai Lalo has provided him a feast of milk.

Guru Sahib left the feast, and news of his challenge to the caste system spread across the town. Before continuing on his journey, Guru ji blessed Bhai Lalo and instructed him to spread the teachings of honesty and hard work.

Selling tobacco and liquor, two things that can harm people's health, is not considered honest hard work.

Honest hard work is that which benefits society.

Bottom Line: An amritdhari can be a good person, but all good people aren't amritdhari.

[Bijla Singh]

I am well aware of the sakhi and its details. Every nigura person needs Naam to be saved. Why don't you study Gurbani first to understand this fact? Some like Bhai Lalo were ready to receive it without much hard effort while those like Sajjan and Malik Bhago had to be molded so their fields of hearts could be prepared to plant the seed of Naam. Bhai Gurdas Ji and Guru Sahib Himself make it emphatically clear that Akal Purakh gave Hukam to Guru Sahib to take udasis and give Naam to people. I am not here to convince you. You are entitled to your opinion and live the way you please but don't claim your personal opinions as Gurmat.