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BBC Documentary on illegal immigration from Punjab


Azaad
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I think the truth lies somewhere in between what WLS and HSD2 wrote. In a sense the people who came over in the 50s and 60s were probably more greedy if that's the right word to better themselves when the situation in Punjab was much better than it is now. Agriculture was on the up, land holdings hadn't become uneconomic and government jobs including the army were still there to be had. Compare this with now, no hope of a government job even in the police or the army for Jats. Land holdings have been made uneconomic due to high rate of mamla or theka.

HSD2 is right about the UK. It's pretty much a lost cause especially since the Muslims are now close to 5% of the population. Most of Europe has gone the same way, the UK's hope is that a significant number of white Eastern Europeans settle here and as well as paying taxes to fund the benefits of the chavs /Paks and the pensions of the oldies their high birth rate will also negate the rise in the number of Muslims. Being nearly 5% the Muslims will now really start to push their agenda in earnest with the threat that if the country doesn't accept their shyt then there's plenty of Muslim youth that may become radicalised if they don't see the majority bending to the will of the minority. They've drained the country's treasury dry like no other people have and Sikhs will probably need to consider whether they still want to be contributing their hand earned money to a country that seems to think that paying for Islamic road shows and bogus exhibitions about the 'contribution' of Islam to the world is a country worth staying in. Probably the only option left for the Sikhs who have the skills and means is emigration to US/Canada or Australia/NZ. This what most of the ambitious goray are doing.

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It's pretty much a lost cause especially since the Muslims are now close to 5% of the population. Most of Europe has gone the same way, the UK's hope is that a significant number of white Eastern Europeans settle here and as well as paying taxes to fund the benefits of the chavs /Paks and the pensions of the oldies their high birth rate will also negate the rise in the number of Muslims. Being nearly 5% the Muslims will now really start to push their agenda in earnest with the threat that if the country doesn't accept their shyt then there's plenty of Muslim youth that may become radicalised if they don't see the majority bending to the will of the minority. They've drained the country's treasury dry like no other people have and Sikhs will probably need to consider whether they still want to be contributing their hand earned money to a country that seems to think that paying for Islamic road shows and bogus exhibitions about the 'contribution' of Islam to the world is a country worth staying in. Probably the only option left for the Sikhs who have the skills and means is emigration to US/Canada or Australia/NZ. This what most of the ambitious goray are doing.

Like the UK didn't bring this on itself in anyway by jumping into ill thought, dubious, resource motivated (oil everyone!) wars in Arab lands - as well trying to pathetically measure swords with Afghans by sending simple, naively patriotic white boys (who'd struggle with gaining GCSE's) to fight abroad. Sadly for them kismet just had it that this would happen when the western banking system would collapse, itself due to the arrogance and irresponsibility of white bankers. Such is luck.

Point is that blaming everything on Muslims is a mug's game. There is plenty of blame laying closer to home (for the indigenous that is). Some of you sycophantic peasants would do well to extract your tongues from the metaphoric Anglo (sinking) backside by the way - but maybe that's hard for you? A genetic thing perhaps? lol

If the British ship is sinking, the Brits at the helm MUST take the blame for it. Brits have created plenty of problems abroad for a few centuries now, karma was bound to kick in sooner or later.

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I dont think he was blaming the musis. More like he was just pointing out that the musis arent sympathetic to Sikhs. No one has a history with them like we do. They pump themselves up with stories about how bad we are to justify their own hate.

Sitting around waiting for the goreh to get their comeuppance with a big grin on our faces whilst taking our eyes of the su//eh would be pretty stupid.

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^^^

I hear that. but one of the few things we have going for us is that we (most of us anyway) haven't got that deeply rooted terror of su//ay that Europeans have probably as a consequence of getting their backsides handed to them during the crusades and now in Iraq/Afghanistan. If we lose that confidence it will make things worse.

I've said before on other forums, one of the number one contributing factors to wahhabi types feeding and fueling themselves is Eurotrash 'foreign policy' which gives them a just cause on a plate. Whitey is no better than su//ay in terms of mischief.

If we are destined to kick off - maybe inevitably, what choice do we have but to do it bravely, even if we are outnumbered.

Plus you are wrong, read his post, he turns goray into victims of su//ay without any serious criticism of their own hand in matters. I think he is one of those jat sycophant types. There are plenty about. Where are Babbari types when you need them huh? lol

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You ask what his parents have to do with it before going on about how different generations are different.

His parents generation in Punjab much like my grandfather's generation got on with it, whether it was in Punjab or England. There were no unions for Sikhs in Punjab back then and not all of them understood employees rights in the UK either. My grandad told me about someone from his village who went to the Midlands to work in a factory. The supervisor asked him if he wanted to do overtime. He said sure. 40 hours later he was still there. Hadnt gone home, hadnt stopped, just kept going. I doubt someone from my generation would do something like that. Also, to accuse our grandparents of illegal immigration is wrong. Plenty got here legally and had to avoid things like national service because they were so legal.

As for your little speech about England, it has changed massively. Only a fool would think that Canada, a land with massive living space and educated population could compare to the bleak overcrowded isle packed with unemployed uneducated goreh and musis that is Britain. How can UK Sikhs feel pity for people who come here with the main ambition of getting enough money to build a big house back in EP with an Indian Airforce MIG model on the roof? Are they high on Disney movies? They dont want the money to build hospitals in EP. They dont want to build better schools in EP. They dont want to improve EP at all. Yet they still come expecting milk and honey even when every objective indicator says the opposite. It's like a toddler going up to Jimmy Saville expecting a lollypop and getting something else. So many UK Sikhs want out of the UK but EPs keep coming here expecting us to wipe their backsides. I know people with engineering degrees who can only get jobs in Sainsburys here but are offered crazy money to go abroad. And they go abroad - who can blame them? Over 50% of muslim men in the UK are unemployed. There are white homes where 3 generations have never held a job. Who wants to pay taxes to support them? Sikhs are net contributors to HM Treasury and give per capita more than anyone else apart from the Jews. But that wont last as so many Sikhs are leaving. The immigrants who came here in the 60s are leaving when their educated children establish themselves abroad. What hopes do these EPs have? The races you mention have turned their areas into nothing more than ghettos. Overusing council services has created a strain that wont last. Are you happy to see you local school go down the drain because they dont have the resources to teach all the children from English chav mothers looking for benefits, Somalis, Poles, Paks etc etc.? EPs come here all doe eyed and expect it to be the 1960s. I'll happily help a Sikh immigrant out. I'll tell him he's screwed up and should have stayed in India and got an education if he wanted to emigrate. I wont support the enslavement of Sikh immigrants into the inequal structure of British society like many Poles and Somalis are finding themselves in.

To summarise, Britain needed labour in the 1960s. Jobs came easily. Houses were cheap. Uncles worked their asses off and bought rows of houses. They are selling them now and moving to nicer areas or leaving the UK. Recent immigrants dont have that luxury.

I didn't know things were so bad in the UK.

Where are Punjabis who have been settled in the UK for a while generally looking to move then? America?

Is there really a mass exodus going on, or is it something people talk about and think about but hardly ever do?

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I tell you what plays a big part in this! This imagined 'greatness' to many pindus have where they believe they are 'sons of the lord of the manor' and thus beneath doing such work back home. But they'll come here and work like dogs in cement no problem.

spot on. ive seen our brothers do the rubbishest work here, inc cleaning toilets, and getting shouted at by nobody's, whilst in panjab they were too arrogant and lazy to help in the fields.

For those of you who, like me, had your family come over in the 1950's. Like me, it was likely your family came over illegally by assuming a false pakistani passport and sailing from Karachi. For those of you who had family come over after the introduction of controls in the early 1960's it is likely your family came over illegaly by someone in your family falsely assuming the positions of son/daughter/ wife of someone else.

My grandfather came over through a ticket system kind of like a lottery. All the people who cam over at that time came like this. i ahve never heard of people coming illegally in the 1950s.

The lottery system of coming to england enabled the "lower castes" to come to england as well. I wondered how it was that chamars and choore who didnt have a pot to pee in could make it to the UK. This was how they got here.

Our grandparents and parents were met with a community of Sikhs that went out of their way to help their fellow man. Unfortunately for the current lot of immigrants, they are met with us : The most miserable, self-centered, self-loathing bunch of complainers the world has ever witnessed. A community never happy unless we put the next man down. I pity the Sikh immigrant that comes here to England. Not because they can't make it in England but because they have to meet us. They'll look around them and see settled Poles helping new arrivals from Poland into work. They'll see Pakistanis helping new arrivals from Pakistan into the shop trade. They'll see settled Bangladeshis helping new arrivals from Bangladesh into the restaurant trade. They'll see settled Afghan Sikhs using their bridarari system to settle the next man up in his own shop, who will then himself have a duty to set the next one up. Then they'll see their own turn their noses up at them. They'll be raided each and every day by the Border Force led by teams of their own people. They will be treated like rubbish by their own people.

This is were we DO fail as a community. Lessons to be learnt from ouyr Afghan brothers.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between what WLS and HSD2 wrote. In a sense the people who came over in the 50s and 60s were probably more greedy if that's the right word to better themselves when the situation in Punjab was much better than it is now. Agriculture was on the up, land holdings hadn't become uneconomic and government jobs including the army were still there to be had. Compare this with now, no hope of a government job even in the police or the army for Jats. Land holdings have been made uneconomic due to high rate of mamla or theka.

The land return in the 60s was meagre, and just about sustainable. it was only in the 1970s with fertilisers and new grain strains, that agriculture began to expand and prosper. So i wouldnt put it down to greed driving people to come here. More like survival.

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His parents generation in Punjab much like my grandfather's generation got on with it, whether it was in Punjab or England. There were no unions for Sikhs in Punjab back then and not all of them understood employees rights in the UK either. My grandad told me about someone from his village who went to the Midlands to work in a factory. The supervisor asked him if he wanted to do overtime. He said sure. 40 hours later he was still there. Hadnt gone home, hadnt stopped, just kept going. I doubt someone from my generation would do something like that. Also, to accuse our grandparents of illegal immigration is wrong. Plenty got here legally and had to avoid things like national service because they were so legal

I am in no mood right now to reason with you too much. Suffice to say there is a hidden Britain right now that clearly not too many know much about. You obviously know about the rights of the man and woman in a job with a contract with the employer itself. But that, my friend, not only only tells half the story it is also the story of our parents generation. Hrd working jobs but with some rights. And so welcome to the life of the manual agency worker in Britain today. The work that 'respectable' employers give to agencies because if they asked their own workers to work under the same conditions and pay it would take them back to the Dickensian workhouses. Trust me bruvs when I tell you how bad things are.

On your other point : I have no right whatsoever to impose my own family circumstances upon yours. That is not my intention. But, when I tell you that my family were among the pioneers that came at the end of WW1 and settled in what was then the UK's largest Sikh community in the east end and then, after permanently moving to Southall after the general at the Wolf rubber factory was so keen on recruiting Sikhs like who had served with him in the army, my family brought in others under false pretences. My grandfather himself told me this and 100% of the pioneers thus far have verified it : After there started to become a fairly large non-white community in the east end of London ( the Bhatra Sikhs....from 1920 onwards) , the British govt asked the Nehru govt to 'stop' the Punjabis 'pouring in'. Nehru obliged....in a roundabout way....by moving, in 1951, the Indian passport office from Delhi to Bombay. The whole thing was designed to make it too difficult for rural Sikhs to get passports. 50% of Sikhs then travelled to Bombay but the other half (perhaps more) , like my grandad and most of the other bajurgs I had talked to, travelled in to Pakistan and obtained Pakistani passports before boarding a ship to England.

As for your little speech about England, it has changed massively. Only a fool would think that Canada, a land with massive living space and educated population could compare to the bleak overcrowded isle packed with unemployed uneducated goreh and musis that is Britain.

Have you been to canada ? They have a drug problem 20 times worse than ours. They have working class no good alcohilics 20 times worse than ours. They have public heroin shooters that make Amsterdam look like Disneyland. They have Jamaican gang violence in Toronto that makes ours look like a kids cartoon. They have more muslims living among Sikhs than we do here in London.

There is a reason why all Australians vall us whinging poms. We have a habit of whinging. We whinge. We complain all the bloody time.

California......Italy......Canada......Australia. See these places get more uneducated rural Sikh Punjabi men and women than we ever get.

Do you think our Canadian, Californian, Italian and Australian brothers and sisters would ever get so neglectful that they would let our newly arrived Sikhs become the poorest of all in the land ? Th roughehest sleepers in the land ? The most homeless in the land ? The hungriest in the land ?

Someone a few messages ago (it may have been you) made a joke about new immigrants from Punjab prostituting themselves on the street. It was a joke I know but have you ever driven through here in Southall after midnight ? There are our newly arrived sisters out on the Broadway at night doing just that. Do you think the Californian Sikh community would have allowed things to get so desperate ? Do you think the Italian Sikhs would have loved their money so much that they could tolerate it ?

Like I said.........The problem is us. We are nothing but whinging poms. We, the established Sikh community are too stupid to realist that other nations and other cities have the same problems worse than us........but still remain chardi kala and help.

The problem is us. We are too miserable and too self critical to do anything positive for the new arrivals. The only alternative is to blame the new arrivals.

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Have you been to canada ? They have a drug problem 20 times worse than ours. They have working class no good alcohilics 20 times worse than ours. They have public heroin shooters that make Amsterdam look like Disneyland. They have Jamaican gang violence in Toronto that makes ours look like a kids cartoon. They have more muslims living among Sikhs than we do here in London.

There is a reason why all Australians vall us whinging poms. We have a habit of whinging. We whinge. We complain all the bloody time.

California......Italy......Canada......Australia. See these places get more uneducated rural Sikh Punjabi men and women than we ever get.

Do you think our Canadian, Californian, Italian and Australian brothers and sisters would ever get so neglectful that they would let our newly arrived Sikhs become the poorest of all in the land ? Th roughehest sleepers in the land ? The most homeless in the land ? The hungriest in the land ?

Someone a few messages ago (it may have been you) made a joke about new immigrants from Punjab prostituting themselves on the street. It was a joke I know but have you ever driven through here in Southall after midnight ? There are our newly arrived sisters out on the Broadway at night doing just that. Do you think the Californian Sikh community would have allowed things to get so desperate ? Do you think the Italian Sikhs would have loved their money so much that they could tolerate it ?

Like I said.........The problem is us. We are nothing but whinging poms. We, the established Sikh community are too stupid to realist that other nations and other cities have the same problems worse than us........but still remain chardi kala and help.

The problem is us. We are too miserable and too self critical to do anything positive for the new arrivals. The only alternative is to blame the new arrivals.

Bhaji, I think you are over-embellishing when it comes to Canada's situation. Sikhs pretty much run Canada. They are well established and well connected in government. New Sikh immigrants have a good safety net in Canada, because they already have family members there that can support them. Canadian politicians are also mindful of Sikh issues, and consequently immigrant issues, because they make up a large percentage of the voting block. I've been to Canada numerous times, and they aren't shooting heroine in the streets like you said.

I think different types of Sikh immigrants go to different countries. It is much harder to immigrate to America, than it is to Canada or U.K. American immigration policy favors educated immigrants. They want people with degrees that will help America compete globally. Generally there is great fervor among people in Punjab, to go abroad. Since it is easier for uneducated people to emigrate to U.K. and Canada, more of them end up there. No degree, no money, and no family support will cause some of them end up destitute.

Australia's Sikh community of Woolgoolga are thriving. They've made a fortune from their banana plantations, that have been operating for generations now. The wealthiest Australian Sikhs now live in Woolgoolga. Sikhs have had similar success with plantations in California and British Columbia.

It's the type of immigrants that the country attracts that is the main issue.

EDIT: Don't forget about the Italian Sikhs! Those hard working folks have been credited by the Italians themselves, for saving Italy's cheese industry.

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Bhaji, I think you are over-embellishing when it comes to Canada's situation. Sikhs pretty much run Canada. They are well established and well connected in government. New Sikh immigrants have a good safety net in Canada, because they already have family members there that can support them. Canadian politicians are also mindful of Sikh issues, and consequently immigrant issues, because they make up a large percentage of the voting block. I've been to Canada numerous times, and they aren't shooting heroine in the streets like you said.

I think different types of Sikh immigrants go to different countries. It is much harder to immigrate to America, than it is to Canada or U.K. American immigration policy favors educated immigrants. They want people with degrees that will help America compete globally. Generally there is great fervor among people in Punjab, to go abroad. Since it is easier for uneducated people to emigrate to U.K. and Canada, more of them end up there. No degree, no money, and no family support will cause some of them end up destitute.

Australia's Sikh community of Woolgoolga are thriving. They've made a fortune from their banana plantations, that have been operating for generations now. The wealthiest Australian Sikhs now live in Woolgoolga. Sikhs have had similar success with plantations in California and British Columbia.

It's the type of immigrants that the country attracts that is the main issue.

EDIT: Don't forget about the Italian Sikhs! Those hard working folks have been credited by the Italians themselves, for saving Italy's cheese industry.

West London doesn't seem to have a clue about what he is talking about.

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I am in no mood right now to reason with you too much. Suffice to say there is a hidden Britain right now that clearly not too many know much about. You obviously know about the rights of the man and woman in a job with a contract with the employer itself. But that, my friend, not only only tells half the story it is also the story of our parents generation. Hrd working jobs but with some rights. And so welcome to the life of the manual agency worker in Britain today. The work that 'respectable' employers give to agencies because if they asked their own workers to work under the same conditions and pay it would take them back to the Dickensian workhouses. Trust me bruvs when I tell you how bad things are.

On your other point : I have no right whatsoever to impose my own family circumstances upon yours. That is not my intention. But, when I tell you that my family were among the pioneers that came at the end of WW1 and settled in what was then the UK's largest Sikh community in the east end and then, after permanently moving to Southall after the general at the Wolf rubber factory was so keen on recruiting Sikhs like who had served with him in the army, my family brought in others under false pretences. My grandfather himself told me this and 100% of the pioneers thus far have verified it : After there started to become a fairly large non-white community in the east end of London ( the Bhatra Sikhs....from 1920 onwards) , the British govt asked the Nehru govt to 'stop' the Punjabis 'pouring in'. Nehru obliged....in a roundabout way....by moving, in 1951, the Indian passport office from Delhi to Bombay. The whole thing was designed to make it too difficult for rural Sikhs to get passports. 50% of Sikhs then travelled to Bombay but the other half (perhaps more) , like my grandad and most of the other bajurgs I had talked to, travelled in to Pakistan and obtained Pakistani passports before boarding a ship to England.

It is not a hidden Britain - everyone else just doesnt feel the need to go on about it as you do. If you're not a middle aged Sikh with a profession or business then the easiest way to find work quickly is through an agency especially in the short term. I've worked in warehouses lugging 20kg sacks onto trucks for hours on end and I've done the generic desk jockey jobs too - whatever I have to to get some money. If this is the only work available to a lot of young Sikhs who are far more educated than the Fauji off the boat and even you admit it is Dickensian, why are you encouraging others to come and get caught in this trap?

Over 50,000 Sikhs initially came to Britain. There is plenty of variation in a group that big. I wasnt saying you were wrong, just that extrapolating what happened to your family onto others was a bit wide of the mark.

Have you been to canada ? They have a drug problem 20 times worse than ours. They have working class no good alcohilics 20 times worse than ours. They have public heroin shooters that make Amsterdam look like Disneyland. They have Jamaican gang violence in Toronto that makes ours look like a kids cartoon. They have more muslims living among Sikhs than we do here in London.

There is a reason why all Australians vall us whinging poms. We have a habit of whinging. We whinge. We complain all the bloody time.

California......Italy......Canada......Australia. See these places get more uneducated rural Sikh Punjabi men and women than we ever get.

Do you think our Canadian, Californian, Italian and Australian brothers and sisters would ever get so neglectful that they would let our newly arrived Sikhs become the poorest of all in the land ? Th roughehest sleepers in the land ? The most homeless in the land ? The hungriest in the land ?

Someone a few messages ago (it may have been you) made a joke about new immigrants from Punjab prostituting themselves on the street. It was a joke I know but have you ever driven through here in Southall after midnight ? There are our newly arrived sisters out on the Broadway at night doing just that. Do you think the Californian Sikh community would have allowed things to get so desperate ? Do you think the Italian Sikhs would have loved their money so much that they could tolerate it ?

Like I said.........The problem is us. We are nothing but whinging poms. We, the established Sikh community are too stupid to realist that other nations and other cities have the same problems worse than us........but still remain chardi kala and help.

The problem is us. We are too miserable and too self critical to do anything positive for the new arrivals. The only alternative is to blame the new arrivals.

Canadian drug issues are no better or worse than what is going on in the UK amongst the youth. It's a bit weird to moan about drug use especially considering East Punjabis are the ones doing their best to imitate 1980s Harlem. The Canadian Sikhs have been sleeping to the problems of the muslims, but when/if they wake up they probably wont put their heads in the sand like we did. They have the political clout to make it more difficult for islamic immigration as well as of other ways to subdue muslims in other ways. Things that we never had in the UK.

The thing about Cali/Italy/Canada/Australia is that they have room for new immigrants. Either they arent that populated fully anyway or in Italy's case, Italian farmers are making way for them. The UK has a far more abrasive and divisive culture, terrible climate, not enough houses, few opportunities etc. Yeah, I get what you mean about helping them, but it becomes pointless if they keep coming and screwing themselves up in the process. Have you watched the videos? The only new immigrants that get ahead are the ones who do so off the back of other recent immigrants as Dal and other pointed out. A little ironic, no? Surely the best thing to do would be to stop them coming or pointing them in the right direction. I'm not whinging either, most of the points about culture/climate have come from immigrants who are here and even with work want to go back as England is so god damn depressing.

I know about the prostitutes, I also know most of their customers are probably our lot too. Sikhs here give so much money to Gurudwaras who do nothing with it. In West London/East Berkshire there are entire rows of houses and roads owned by Gurudwaras who had committees that wanted to avoid paying tax on all the money they had put in the bank. I know I shouldnt talk about it, but it's got to the point where I just dont care. Why are the committees not housing these people then? Of course if one of the old fogies was here they would give the usual excuses that the older generation are so quick to come up with when amongst their own. But why should my generation feel like we let the immigrants down? We didnt lose the War for Khalistan and turn EP into what it is now. We dont vote for Badal or produce sons who join the Punjab Police force. We dont sell the drugs that they shoot up their veins. We dont sit on Gurudwara Committees who look after mountains of cash. We dont go ape for a parcel of land. We arent responsible for their reckless West/whitey worshipping. We dont run businesses that take advantage of them. We arent responsible for the stupid assumptions that EPs make. So why blame us kids?

If I could build a time machine so that all EPs could go back to 1960s Britain and enjoy living in terraced housing, eat bad food, interact with ugly smelly English people, enjoy racism etc I would. But I cant so I'll do the next best thing - tell the truth. We cant even look after people who have been here for decades, what hope do the new immigrants have? Plenty of UK Sikhs dont live the high life here like in other parts of the Anglosphere. A lot of poeple here pay for big houses in EP once they pay off their mortgages. They do it so they have somewhere to go if kicked out of England and they cant get into a decent country. EP is a last resort. Why EPs think this reflects an 'easy life' abroad just shows how stupid they are. Surely the immgrants should make a go of EP like the Germans/Japs/Koreans/Taiwanese/Chinese all have in their countries? On a Washington Post article about drug use in Punjab, one of the commenters said it was 'Darwinism in action'. As bad as that sounds it is true. If these dodos want to hurl themselves off a cliff thinking they can fly, then go for it. If we all went back to EP do you think they would just bend over backwards to help us, especially if they werent related? They'd rob us blind and then some. There is a reason why rich NRIs dont invest in Punjab - they are never going back there no matter what if it is the same way as when they left it.

Being Chardikala is for when life when throws some unexpected hardships. Not when someone tells you to brake and you decide to drive your car into a wall at 90mph. Being Chardikala is about striving for a better tomorrow - not about using hope or deliberate ignorance as a drug to tolerate the pathetic situations we make for ourselves. Maybe if East Punjabis took better care of their women and drug addicts back home, the old fogeys in the UK might start doing something too.

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