Guru Nanak sahib at Mecca

[Jonny101]

Nobody says that miracles are more important.The point is they are not caused.They do happen with god's will.

My question is quite valid.There are many people who cann't read Guru Granth sahib. Are they debarred from god realization in sikhi? Pl let us know.

Very true. I personally know of men women(elderly) who cannot read nor write. But they have full Sharda in Guru Jee. They go to Gurdwara to do hours of seva, do paath of what little Bani they have memorized and do Naam Simran. Even thought they are unread, yet they are many times better Sikhs than naastics like Dhunda and Ghagha.

[GPS]

per missionary philosophy if one cann't read Gurbani he is useless. But Guru sahib's teachings enshrined in Guru Granth sahib ji do not differentiate between a literate and illiterate person.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Veerji I can't believe you deny it, Prof Sahib Singh Jee's translation mentions the Mandhir rotating around Bhagat Namdev Jee.

Here is the link:http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/pdf/1151-1175.pdf

go on Ang 1164 on the shabad that starts with "hast tere dehre aiya"

Prof jee translated the shabad as Bhagat Namdev Jee was kicked out of the Mandhir, he went to the back side and was in vairaag. To keep the laaj of His Bhagat, Vaheguru made the Mandhir rotate around Bhagat Namdev. I am not saying this, this is as per Prof Sahib Singh Jee.

Please be honest. Honesty is the greatest Shingaar of a Sikh.

Veer ji I repeat again that Prof. Sahib Singh tells the essence and I know they have translated as you are saying.

No body is denying it.

Bhagat Namdev was denied of entering into Mandir. Now there are Mandir and Gurdwara dedicated to Bhagat Namdev.

Mandir is actually rotated. People who were not allowed enter into mandir, we bow them(Guru Granth Sahib).

[GPS]

But there are still mandirs where low castes are not allowed.

Point is that temple was moved. This is written in gurbani and a sikh believes in that. We are not talking about after effects.So is shabad about sulhi khan. There is no confusion about that.

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

बिलावलु महला ५ ॥

Bilāval mėhlā 5.

Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl:

ਸੁਲਹੀ ਤੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਰਾਖੁ ॥

सुलही ते नाराइण राखु ॥

Sulhī ṯe nārā▫iṇ rākẖ.

The Lord saved me from Sulhi Khan.

ਸੁਲਹੀ ਕਾ ਹਾਥੁ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਪਹੁਚੈ ਸੁਲਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਮੂਆ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

सुलही का हाथु कही न पहुचै सुलही होइ मूआ नापाकु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Sulhī kā hāth kahī na pahucẖai sulhī ho▫e mū▫ā nāpāk. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The emperor did not succeed in his plot, and he died in disgrace. ||1||Pause||

ਕਾਢਿ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਖਸਮਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਗਇਆ ਹੈ ਖਾਕੁ ॥

काढि कुठारु खसमि सिरु काटिआ खिन महि होइ गइआ है खाकु ॥

Kādẖ kuṯẖār kẖasam sir kāti▫ā kẖin mėh ho▫e ga▫i▫ā hai kẖāk.

The Lord and Master raised His axe, and chopped off his head; in an instant, he was reduced to dust. ||1||

ਮੰਦਾ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਪਚਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਦੀਨਾ ਧਾਕੁ ॥੧॥

मंदा चितवत चितवत पचिआ जिनि रचिआ तिनि दीना धाकु ॥१॥

Manḏā cẖiṯvaṯ cẖiṯvaṯ pacẖi▫ā jin racẖi▫ā ṯin ḏīnā ḏẖāk. ||1||

Plotting and planning evil, he was destroyed. The One who created him, gave him a push.

ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੀਤ ਧਨੁ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਇਆ ਸਭ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਕੁ ॥

पुत्र मीत धनु किछू न रहिओ सु छोडि गइआ सभ भाई साकु ॥

Puṯar mīṯ ḏẖan kicẖẖū na rahi▫o so cẖẖod ga▫i▫ā sabẖ bẖā▫ī sāk.

Of his sons, friends and wealth, nothing remains; he departed, leaving behind all his brothers and relatives.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਨ ਕਾ ਕੀਨੋ ਪੂਰਨ ਵਾਕੁ ॥੨॥੧੮॥੧੦੪॥

कहु नानक तिसु प्रभ बलिहारी जिनि जन का कीनो पूरन वाकु ॥२॥१८॥१०४॥

Kaho Nānak ṯis parabẖ balihārī jin jan kā kīno pūran vāk. ||2||18||104||

Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to God, who fulfilled the word of His slave. ||2||18||104||

ang 825

[Jonny101]

But there are still mandirs where low castes are not allowed.

Point is that temple was moved. This is written in gurbani and a sikh believes in that. We are not talking about after effects.So is shabad about sulhi khan. There is no confusion about that.

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

बिलावलु महला ५ ॥

Bilāval mėhlā 5.

Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl:

ਸੁਲਹੀ ਤੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਰਾਖੁ ॥

सुलही ते नाराइण राखु ॥

Sulhī ṯe nārā▫iṇ rākẖ.

The Lord saved me from Sulhi Khan.

ਸੁਲਹੀ ਕਾ ਹਾਥੁ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਪਹੁਚੈ ਸੁਲਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਮੂਆ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

सुलही का हाथु कही न पहुचै सुलही होइ मूआ नापाकु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Sulhī kā hāth kahī na pahucẖai sulhī ho▫e mū▫ā nāpāk. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The emperor did not succeed in his plot, and he died in disgrace. ||1||Pause||

ਕਾਢਿ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਖਸਮਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਗਇਆ ਹੈ ਖਾਕੁ ॥

काढि कुठारु खसमि सिरु काटिआ खिन महि होइ गइआ है खाकु ॥

Kādẖ kuṯẖār kẖasam sir kāti▫ā kẖin mėh ho▫e ga▫i▫ā hai kẖāk.

The Lord and Master raised His axe, and chopped off his head; in an instant, he was reduced to dust. ||1||

ਮੰਦਾ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਪਚਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਦੀਨਾ ਧਾਕੁ ॥੧॥

मंदा चितवत चितवत पचिआ जिनि रचिआ तिनि दीना धाकु ॥१॥

Manḏā cẖiṯvaṯ cẖiṯvaṯ pacẖi▫ā jin racẖi▫ā ṯin ḏīnā ḏẖāk. ||1||

Plotting and planning evil, he was destroyed. The One who created him, gave him a push.

ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੀਤ ਧਨੁ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਇਆ ਸਭ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਕੁ ॥

पुत्र मीत धनु किछू न रहिओ सु छोडि गइआ सभ भाई साकु ॥

Puṯar mīṯ ḏẖan kicẖẖū na rahi▫o so cẖẖod ga▫i▫ā sabẖ bẖā▫ī sāk.

Of his sons, friends and wealth, nothing remains; he departed, leaving behind all his brothers and relatives.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਨ ਕਾ ਕੀਨੋ ਪੂਰਨ ਵਾਕੁ ॥੨॥੧੮॥੧੦੪॥

कहु नानक तिसु प्रभ बलिहारी जिनि जन का कीनो पूरन वाकु ॥२॥१८॥१०४॥

Kaho Nānak ṯis parabẖ balihārī jin jan kā kīno pūran vāk. ||2||18||104||

Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to God, who fulfilled the word of His slave. ||2||18||104||

ang 825

This is another Shabad proving that miracles can and did happen. It was the Miracle of Vaheguru that He saved his Bhagat(Guru Ji) and killed Sulhi Khan. I am not saying this, this is as per Prof Sahib Singh Jee's translation.

[tuhintuhin]

SIKHI itself is miracle.......becuase Dasam Patshah Says " Karo Khalsa Panth Teesr Parvesa"

waheguru ji could you explain this please......

[tuhintuhin]

per missionary philosophy if one cann't read Gurbani he is useless. But Guru sahib's teachings enshrined in Guru Granth sahib ji do not differentiate between a literate and illiterate person.

I remember a sakhi her from the times of Dasve paatshah...there was an illiterate sikh, don't remeber the name,,,,,he came to Guru ji ...Guru ji said ke path kareya kar..he said he doen't know how to read n write....Guru ji said ok I'll tell you what to recite later, but for now start doing "ghorean/horses" di sewa .....sikh started sewa but was eagerly waiting fro Guru ji's bachans......

.....then Jidan Guru nu bhaawe Guru sahib didn't tell him anything and had to go somewhere.....at the moment when Guru sahib ji was getting on his horse, that sikh was standing in front of the horse...Guru sahib said "pare hat",,,,,,and went away.....sikh thought Guru ji had preached him the word to recite upon.......he wholeheartedly with innocent heart full of love for Guru ji strated reciting "pare hat" 24/7....and other sewadars used to mock at him.....But with guru ji's kirpa that sikh got all the gyan and avastha and Guru ji explained to others that it's innocent love for akaal purkh ji, "bhole bhaa mile raghu raeya"

I might have messed up in between the sakhi, memebers are very welcome to correct that....

[VanHelsingh]

I remember a sakhi her from the times of Dasve paatshah...there was an illiterate sikh, don't remeber the name,,,,,he came to Guru ji ...Guru ji said ke path kareya kar..he said he doen't know how to read n write....Guru ji said ok I'll tell you what to recite later, but for now start doing "ghorean/horses" di sewa .....sikh started sewa but was eagerly waiting fro Guru ji's bachans......

.....then Jidan Guru nu bhaawe Guru sahib didn't tell him anything and had to go somewhere.....at the moment when Guru sahib ji was getting on his horse, that sikh was standing in front of the horse...Guru sahib said "pare hat",,,,,,and went away.....sikh thought Guru ji had preached him the word to recite upon.......he wholeheartedly with innocent heart full of love for Guru ji strated reciting "pare hat" 24/7....and other sewadars used to mock at him.....But with guru ji's kirpa that sikh got all the gyan and avastha and Guru ji explained to others that it's innocent love for akaal purkh ji, "bhole bhaa mile raghu raeya"

I might have messed up in between the sakhi, memebers are very welcome to correct that....

Yes, a great sakhi. I've heard this one as well. Just shows how much can be achieved when you place full faith in Guru Sahib.

[GPS]

Gurbani does not differentiate between a lettered and an unlettered person.. The emphasis is on Naam simran.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ जो प्राणी गोविंदु धिआवै ॥
Jo parāṇī govinḏ ḏẖi▫āvai.
That mortal who meditates on the Lord of the Universe,

ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ पड़िआ अणपड़िआ परम गति पावै ॥१॥
Paṛi▫ā aṇpaṛi▫ā param gaṯ pāvai. ||1|
whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme status ||1|

ang 197

[UKLondonSikh]

Our history say that Guru Nanak sahib went to Mecca and as mullah turned his feet to otherside, Mecca rotated to that side. But faithless missionaries refute that saying it is not possible.

There is Gurdeep s johl who writes on this forum that he does not believe in this.

He writes

Rotation of Mecca and Panjokhra Sahib issue veerji I don't either believe leave aside Dilgeer.

Showing miracles is against Gurmat.

But rotation of Mecca is endorsed in Bhai Gurdas ji Vaar also. Bhai sahib was born during last year of Guru Angad dev ji and lived till time of Sri hargobind sahib.

Missionary mindset does not understand that miracles are not caused but occur as will of God to aid his devotees.

Many young minds come to this forum for learning sikhi.What type of example we are giving them by disowning our history?

UK = GPS Paji, I don't place much credence in the story that Mecca rotated either. For me, my Guru's Truth and Highness shines brightly enough through the fact that they taught the Muslims that God does not reside in Mecca alone but in ALL directions. The deep point made by Guru Sahib does not need embellishment by stating that Mecca itself rotated. The matter is not about disowning our Panth's history - it's about reclaiming the True history which aligns with Gurmat and Gurbani. I'm 100% sure that Gurdeep Paji, Dhunda Sahib, Panthpreet Singh Khalsa and others that you view as atheists care about Sikhi just as passionately as you do (for which I genuinely respect you, even though I often disagree with you on this particular matter).

Great topic veerji. The Makkah rotation saakhi finds mention by non other than Bhai Gurdas Jee's varaan. As Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhinranwale jee mentions, some(very few actually) began denying this saakhi out of fear of Muslims.

Like the makkah rotation, another Saakhi from the jeevani of bhagat namdev jee mentions the rotation of a Mandhir. This event is mentioned in Gurbani itself. Gurbani mentions many such miracles of Vaheguru that have occurred. Unfortunately many missionaries are so brainwashed by the metriculation passed Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana that they cannot think outside the box.

UK = Jonny Paji no Gursikh will ever fear Muslim beliefs. Guru Sahib liberated the poor and instituted Langar. Prophet Muhammad, as a rich Slaveowner, traded in the lives of innocent human beings and children as well as clearly developing Islam as effectively an Arabic Empire (under the guise of submission to Allah). Jameen aas'maan da farq haii Paji.

UK = The Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Gurbani is metaphoric and refers to the fact that God's illumination was more brightly present "outside" of the Mandir (with the shardha of the True devotees of The One meditating upon the True Name) as opposed to inside the Mandir where the wretched caste-discriminating Mahants had lost all spirutual connection to Akaal Purakh ParmAathma.

Missionaries just want to prove that their Bulls**t Parchar is more miraculous than Our Satguruji's Miracle.

If they say Miracle are against Gurmat.....then SGGSJI is also miracle because SGGSJi bani cannot be written by any human......If you get cured from Illness and DIsease by reading Bani.....it is also Miracle.......If Baba Deep singh ji Carried his head on this Palm just to save his Sikh Dharam......Then that is ALso Miracle..

UK = MP Paji every Sikh on the planet agrees with you in so much as that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is indeed a greater miracle than any debateable miracle which has been written about in relation to Sikhi in more recent history as an attempt at embellishment and which merely serves to drag the Sikh Panth into the same maya that Hindu's, Muslims and Christians with their incredible unbelievable miracles are clearly engrossed in.

UK = For anyone that is cured from a disease, every Sikh on the planet will utter "Vaheguru" on such an occurence.

UK = Mohinder Pal Paji I respect your sharda in believing that Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh carried his head in his hand whilst fighting for however many hours or days you believe. However, do you not agree that it is even more incredible if Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh received an (ultimately fatal) sword wound to their neck but still with unmatchable bravery kept on fighting whilst losing blood so long as their heart was pumping with Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji's body fighting till the very end for Sarbat dha Bhalla. You believe that they fought with a decapitated head held in one hand. Others believe they fought so long as their physical body would phsyically allow them despite losing so much blood from their neck. That doesn't mean either side has any less reverence for Dhan Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji. Who is the greater Mahapursh - one who fights with a decapitated head in hand or one who continues fighting till their last breath suffering severe blood loss from ultimately fatal wounds. Don't answer that - just think about it in your heart Paji.

Bro, I agree with you. But we are not talking about Ridhi Sidhis. We are talking about the out right denial of miracles through out history which have even been mentioned in Gurbani and Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji. We cannot write them off or try to deny them because to deny those occurrences would be to deny the truthfulness of Gurbani.

UK = Jonny Paji no Sikh on the planet can deny the 100% truth of Gurbani.

UK = However, interpretations can differ and we shouldn't lose Panthic Unity as a consequence.

Bhagat Namdev Jee was kicked out of the Mandhir, he went to the back side and was in vairaag.

To keep the laaj of His Bhagat, Vaheguru made the Mandhir rotate around Bhagat Namdev.

UK = Jonny Paji just like how Guru Sahib explained to the Muslims that there is no direction in which God is not present, it needs to be borne in mind that for God to be "present" with Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj it does not require a physical building to literally rotate. Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj was in vairaag in a state of spiritual bliss with the Lord outside of the Mandir. The wretched caste-discriminating Mahants inside the Mandir were as far away from God in spiritual terms as evil people can be. That's the rotation Maharaj was referring to. Literal interpretation will lead our Panth into the same acceptance of miracles as Christians, Muslims and Hindu's. Sikh ik vakhri Qaum ne.

Miracles are not caused.They do happen with God's will. Rotation of Mecca was not caused by guru sahib.It was God's act.

The problem with atheists is that they do not believe sikhi as a mystic path.

Now there is a slab erected since that time in memory of Guru sahib's visit and a place where Guru sahib had

dialogue with Peer behlol. He became Guru ji's disciple and did bhagti till his last breath where he had dialogue with Guru

ji. To turn him into a disciple was also a miracle.

The above is narrated by Swami anandmurthy in his famous poem " Song of swan bird" he passed by that place on foot on his way

to norway sometime in 1916 around.

Poblem with these missioanry cult is that they do not believe in existence of a soul. How can they believe in God. Their whole scholarship is fake.

UK = Paji it's highly questionable whether such a slab exists in Mecca attesting to the fact that Mecca rotated. The bigger testimony to such a miracle occurring would have been that the Qureshi caste (the Arab Brahmin caste that Muhammad belonged to and which controlled all funds donated by piligrims as a business) would have accepted the Truth of Sikhi along with all Muslims. Sadly the fact is that they haven't and most Arabs would not have even heard of Sikhi is indicative that such a Saakhi should not be interpreted literally. Is it not questionable whether God would have chosen to end the Mughal Empire and end all hunger, suffering and oppression in the World ... instead of rotating Mecca with the effect of no real change in the beliefs of the Arabs or Muslims more generally?

Sikhi is a simple path.Without Naam simran there is no sikhi. But Gurdip johal ridicule Naam simran and say gurbani itself is naam simran.

I asked him what about those who cann't read gurbani? He does not answer to that.

UK = GPS Paji i respect Naam Simran. I believe Gurdeep Singh also does. Sikhi is a simple path. All that certain people you oppose have dared to suggest is that Naam Simran must be accompanied by practical positive action thereafter. For example, when the Khalsa Fauj fought the Mughals for Sarbat dha Bhalla, they did not solely sit down on the battlefield and do literal Naam Simran alone. Real life actions have to accompany meditation is all that the pro-Gurmat kathavachaks like Dhunda Sahib and Panthpreet Singh Khalsa are saying.

UK = As for those who cannot read Gurbani ... there is absolutely no impediment from them to realise True Gian at a far greater level than myself, yourself, Jonny Paji or Gurdeep Paji. However, there are those who might proclaim themselves as Sants and Baba's who fail to "understand" Gurbani to a lesser degree than illiterates who live their lives as paragons of truth and humilty such as Bhai Lalo Ji to cite one example.

Bhai sahib, how can a person who does not believe in existence of soul can believe in God even. I asked a missionary does he believe in soul.He replied have you seen it. Then i asked him why do you believe in God since you do not see him.

These people do not believe in God but do not say it openly as they are scared.

UK = GPS Paji if every Sikh on the planet believes in ParmAathma how can anyone deny the the existence of a "soul"? What is denied is the conventional Hindu+Muslim thinkings relating to what the soul is, as opposed to simple blanket denial of the soul in an atheistic sense. Nobody from the pro-Gurmat camp would deny God - that is merely an allegation used by their opponents to try and discredit them.

per missionary philosophy if one cann't read Gurbani he is useless.

UK = GPS Paji that's a gross misrepresentation of the pro-Gurmat position. An illiterate can have higher God realisation than the most clever pakhandi Baba. Spirituality does not necassarily correlate with education and shardha. However, when certain so-called Sants and Baba's fail to understand Gurbani and twist the Truth in an anti-Gurmat way then it's not wrong to point out that rich Jatt businessmen like Gurinder Dhillon (Radha Soami Business Empire) and Ram Rahim Sidhu (Dera Congress Sirsa) do not understand Gurbani.

-----------------------

UK = GPS Paji from your words it seems like you feel that Gurdeep Singh is an non-Sikh and an atheist. I believe him to be as passionate about Sikhi and the Panth as you are.

UK = GPS Paji this is what I would say you need to consider before forming a judgement of him and where he stands in relation to you as your brother in the Panth from Ambala:

1. Is he angry about the clean chit given to a Jatt like Sajjan Kumar?

2. Is he angry about how Bhajan Lal treated our Qaum?

3. Is he angry about what happened at Hondh-Chillar?

4. Does he want all of our Panth to leave drugs, alcohol, female infanticide and biraderi discrimination behind?

5. Does he want 100% literacy within the Panth and 100% access to healthcare for gareeb members of the Panth?

If his answers to those questions match your answers, match my answers, match Jonny Paji's answers, match Sarbhjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda)'s answers, match Panthpreet Singh Khalsa answers, match SikhRi.org answers, match sikhilehar (youtube) answers, match Singh Sabha Canada's answers, match Giani Amrik Singh (Chandigarh) answers ... then why should GurSikhs see each other as two opposing parties? We are one indivisible Panth. Within that Panth there can be Unity in Diversity. Instead of labelling Amritdhari Gursikhs as non-Sikhs and atheists wouldn't we achieve more by continually striving to join forces on the issues that matter related to seeing the Panth in Chardi Kallah.

If we all saw the other Gursikh with a tyre around the other person's neck wouldn't we all defend each other without thinking about the other Gursikh's interpretation of Sikhi?

United we stand, Divided we fall! Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

We need to put our minor differences aside (though by all means we can respectfully debate them) and focus on using what our enemies have done to us in not freeing Bhai Rajoana, Professor Bhullar and others whilst freeing a proven murderer like Kishori Lal and now acquitting Sajjan Kumar ... and focus the energy and anger we have inside us on how we are going to uplift the Panth by building more schools, paying for more education for poor Sikh youth, building more drug rehabiliation and sports facilities in the villages, stamping out those who aid female infanticide and preserve the caste system as well as trying to extract what we can for the long term benefit of the Panth (as opposed to justice which we will have to get ourselves) as a 25million united front from Manmohan Singh before the next Indian General Election (which will occur within 12months maximum).