Edl 'sikh Divison'

[taran0]

while i don't hold the edl in high regard ! (<-- read that bit again)

anyone willing to raise awareness and work together against child grooming and sexual exploitation should be welcomed regardless of their political views

one thing we can all agree on is that GROOMING is disgusting and WRONG and it has to stop !

we just need to be mindful of what their real aim is.... and make sure we are not being used as a political pawn - as "we not racist - look we have brown people"

I do feel though that due to the lack of attention to the Sikh Community, and sikh issues by british media and british police - unfortunately you are going to find more and more Young sikhs joining the EDL - as no one else is listening to them. They feel they have been sidelined and that Sikh concerns about behaviour that they witness from the muslim community is never taken seriously.

its just getting beyond a joke now

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Care-home-worker-guilty-raping-vulnerable-boy/story-19478430-detail/story.html

A former children’s home worker has been found guilty of raping and sexually abusing a vulnerable boy in care.

Victim Aaron Leafe suffered months of prolonged abuse by Anwar Ismail, before going to the police, saying: “I just want it to stop.”
The traumatised 15-year-old committed suicide six weeks later.

http://tyneandwear.sky.com/news/article/75796/south-shields-asian-gang-rape-trial-men-raped-children-court

Two schoolgirls were raped at a house where vulnerable youngsters were taken advantage of by older Asian men, a court heard.

A 14-year-old victim was held down by Raabsan Khan and Abu Sufian while Ferdoush Hasan raped her in a sickening attack last February, it is claimed.

Her ordeal was just days after another 14-year-old visitor at the property at Beaufront Terrace, South Shields, was taken into one of the rooms and raped by Hasan acting alone, jurors have heard.

some sikh edl members are going around with slogans like "not all pakistanis are groomers but nearly all groomers are pakistanis"

which i think is a bit inappropriate

[garch]

"If you cant see god in all you cant see god at all"

Mussalmana de vich una rab vasda jina sade vich!

Many of them see him less then me and you and some more... bas meh hor ne kuch kehna.

[Hammertime007]

This what the loony Sikhs against edll are doing

[S4NGH]

In response to Tandoori

Nowhere did I state Guru Tegh Bahadur died for Hindusim I agree he died for Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, equal rights, and defending the innocent and that includes muslims freedom of religion, equal rights etc!

And yes Thankfully I have taken the time to read the Koran (not a good read in my opinion) and have sought understanding from Muslims who actually speak Arabic and study the Koran, do you read in Arabic or you relying on translations someone made for you? copying and pasting translations from the internet unfortunately doesnt give one the understanding of the Koran and Hadiths in my opinion. There are many Sufi and moderate muslims who could take you translations and put them in a different context/interpretation. That is the difference between extremists and moderates! You obviously believe that all Muslims follow your extremist translation. I know they dont!!!!

Once again although I respect your understanding and knowledge of the term Kuttha Meat (never heard of this one before, where the Gurus also anti-Jewish then?!?). However, I would be interested in listening/reading your logic when this argument is put forth to Taksali/AKJ etc Singhs and others who interpret Kutha as in meat full stop and nothing to do with Islam!? Which is what I personally believe

You might argue that there is no evidence that Guru Hargobind Singh Ji did not build a mosque but I personally take the word of Baba Kirtan Singh (Tarna Dal) who has stated that the Mosque was built by Guru Sahib. But hey once again I respect your view if you think Baba Ji is just speculating I personally dont think Baba ji would speculate that his Jatha have been looking after the mosque.

I would also like to point out that azans where only banned by Sikhs in some areas to prevent extremist Muslim preachers from gaining a platform to launch attacks on Sikh Empire and cause disharmony in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs reign. Its Muslim authors who propagate Sikhs to have been intolerant rulers who banned the Azan all across the Empire. Im surprised youre paraphrasing the rhetoric of Anti-Sikh authors. Talking of this period I am proud that Sikhs did not stop Muslims from practicing Islam imagine the EDL in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs reign and its not as if they didnt have to deal with Islamic extremism then its just that they knew not to bash the whole of Islam.

I would also like to point out that the case in Leicester also had Gujarati Hindu groomers involved and it wasnt only guys from a muslim background! I would also like to point out that all the major Imams in Leicester condemned the groomers involved and Child grooming full stop, surely if you have the read the Koran and are knowledgeable about the true nature of Islam you would know such activities are not permitted in Islam! And yet the voice of the Imams is often ignored. And let me remind people if it has been forgotten that talking of Leicester It was in Leicester itself in Big Johns restaurant that EDL members smashed the place up whilst the place was full of women and children who in terror had to hide in the kitchens whist drunken thugs ran amok! So yes they do smash up Muslim shops and businesses anytime they enter a Muslim dominated area thats what they do I cant believe even this point is up for debate when those who have bothered to go to an area once EDL have left will see the drunken mess they have left!

Like I said previously the EDL did not come out of nowhere. But having pure hate of Islam and all muslims in my opinion is wrong. And I think this is the difference I do wonder whether some people are so paranoid that muslims are calling them kaffirs and doing black magic and trying to convert them that they are unable to engage in meaningful engagement and discussion with practicing muslims. Anyone actually spoken to an Imam!? Or is this stuff just picked up from Internet and youtube?! They arent out to get you!!!

I think this is just one of those things where some Sikhs think its acceptable to team up with the EDL I say good luck to them. I personally dont find their views/actions compatible with Sikhi! But that just might me being a liberal westernised Sikh" I suppose...

Your dignified response is worthy of much praise. Thank you good to see we have some Sikhs on this platform

[S4NGH]

This what the loony Sikhs against edll are doing

Who said he was against the EDL? His a member of the provincial parliament ontario. Read much?

[S4NGH]

I'm glad you agree Guru Tegh Bahadur didn't give his life for something so stupid as Political Correctness. He didn't care about stroking Hinduisms ego, just its right to exist.

Who is taking away a Muslims freedom of religion ASIDE from Muslims themselves? Nobody and definitely not the EDL. It's Islam that wants apostates to be KILLED remember?

Bukhari (52:260): "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Muslims can be Muslims, but Sharia Law CANNOT co-exist with the rest of the world it's just that simple. If they want Sharia Law they should go live in a Muslim country. The very same Muslim countries incidentally treating religious minorities (like Sikhs in Pakistan and Afghanistan) like crap.

Equal Rights would be BRILLIANT! Too bad Muslims aren't happy with JUST that and want to force their ways on everyone else. One law for them and one for everyone else. Whether it be the implementation of Sharia, or the police and government just being too AFRAID to tackle Muslim crimes.

This is exactly why issues such as grooming have been allowed to occur for so long and run rampant. Police knew plenty but didn't act because they were just afraid of being labelled racist.

You HAVE? Wow, I commend you because that's more than 99% of Muslims are capable of it seems!

Do you want to know what Koran I mostly use? It's FREE after all.

http://quran.com/

There you have the ORIGINAL Arabic text, and you have 6 of the MOST POPULAR AND RESPECTED English translations, all of which say the EXACT SAME THINGS.

There's nothing extreme about them, THIS is the Koran that ALMOST ALL Muslims follow whether you like it or not. Do you have BETTER translations of the Koran? Feel free to share with the world.

The Hadith are the same, there are various translations but all of them say EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

Do you know what Allah says about CONTEXT? It doesn't matter because the Koran is 'perfect'.

11:1: Book is clear and free from imperfection. It is explained in detail.

Alif-Lam-Ra. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Quran and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings]. (This is) a Book, the Verses whereof are perfected (in every sphere of knowledge, etc.), and then explained in detail from One (Allah), Who is All-Wise and Well-Acquainted (with all things).

9:29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah.

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Please tell me what possible CONTEXT is there for this other than what it actually says? Note that there are HUNDREDS of offending quotes, this is just one.

The idea of having to be able to read Arabic to understand the Koran is also preposterous.

What percentage of the 1.5+ billion Muslims in the world can ACTUALLY read Arabic? The answer is not very high. Even Muslims who were taught to recite the Koran in Arabic in Madrassas generally have NO idea what any of it even means. How RIDICULOUS would it be if you HAD to be able to read Arabic in order to 'understand' the Koran? What does that say about the majority of Muslims who don't know any Arabic?

There are many sects of Islam, and they pretty much all hate and consider each other heretics. To the vast majority of Muslims Sufism isn't even Islam. Most of the Muslims in the UK are Pakistani Sunni (Orthodox) Muslims and follow the EXACT translations I have shown you.

I already said, the ONLY distinction between a 'moderate' and a 'radical' Muslim is simply how CLOSE they are following the Koran to the very letter. Osama Bin Laden was a VERY good Muslim for example! I'm sure many 'moderate' Western Muslims are HORRIFIED by what they actually know about the Koran.

I'm sorry my friend but you do not even know the half of it, even child grooming can be justified in the Koran alone.

The Guru's rejected ALL FORMS of ritual slaughter. This would include Muslim Halal, Jewish Kosher, and rituals that were performed by certain Hindu sects at the time.

It's not about being 'anti-religion', it's about not agreeing with clearly ridiculous and BARBARIC practices. Have you actually seen Halal slaughter taking place? It's disgusting. Look it up on Youtube.

No, Sikhs are ALLOWED to eat meat and it is considered purely a personal choice, our Guru's ate meat and were skilled hunters don't forget. Sikh warriors taking shelter in the forests, hills and jungles during times of war couldn't possibly sustain themselves without meat.

Kutha Meat is strictly forbidden. The meat Sikhs eat must be 'Jhatka' which means INSTANT KILL, the animal should have to endure the LEAST amount of suffering possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhatka

You can believe what you want, but the truth is absolute and won't change. I am TOTALLY AGAINST any misrepresentation of our faith.

Others have argued this point for me, all I can say for now is that there seems to be more evidence AGAINST the idea that Guru Hargobind built a Mosque than FOR it.

Where is the evidence that the Azaan was banned only in SOME areas of the Sikh Empire? Honestly crazy preachers really don't need to try all that hard to reach their audience unfortunately...

Any evidence for Sikhs even being CLOSE to intolerant rulers to Muslims is incredibly weak, and the sources are hard to trace. Simply banning the Azaan would not make it so anyway, that's just called COMMON SENSE! I actually HOPE they did universally ban the Azaan. It shouldn't exist, it's simply annoying to anyone who isn't Muslim.

Imagine if Gurdwara's started blasting out our ideology (nevermind calls to war) on loudspeakers? Or any other religion did? HOW would Muslims react to that? I doubt they would appreciate it, they'd hit the streets in seconds!

Either EVERYONE should have their own 'Azaan' or nobody should have one. That is how equal rights works.

Again, you're stating that the EDL want Muslims to simply DISAPPEAR. This is false and there is NO evidence of this. Muslims have been part of EDL protests, and the EDL leadership has stated time and again they are against the ideology, encroaching Sharia Law and the Political Correctness that protects Islam, NOT individual Muslims. Muslims themselves are actually the first victims of Islam.

How is this anything but logical? Dont you think Muslims paedophiles should be sent to jail JUST as quickly as any other?

Fact of the matter is Muslims aren't going anywhere and they won't change Islam. This is EXACTLY why pressing issues need to be sorted out NOW.

I already mentioned that one of the men who were arrested was of a Hindu background, but going by the names released its possible there were two. Names can be deceiving but I'll go with it anyway. Rotten filth comes in all forms.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Child-exploitation-case-ndash-court/story-18100272-detail/story.html#axzz2aCbGeuFv

Fact is MOST of the names here are Muslim names, and the shop that was ransacked by Sikhs was Muslim owned. The VAST MAJORITY of street based grooming in the UK and beyond is committed by Muslims. Muslims were CLEARLY at the heart of this grooming gang. I dont like using the term gang because that gives the illusion that these losers are to be feared.

What do the few Hindu names among them prove? All it proves is the fact that we cant trust Hindus to sell out both THEMSELVES and of course US to these sick idiots. Some Hindus are willing to side with these guys, or give them money to get time with their girls.

Youre forgetting Hindus have suffered WAY more than Sikhs when it comes to any of the problems Muslims have caused historically and today. The Sikh population worldwide is just over 30 million, and there are billions of Hindus. There are well over twice as many Hindus in the UK than Sikhs. How many grooming victims do you think Hindus have racked up? Its about as disgraceful as it gets if a Hindu is involved is this crap.

Youve just proved my point really. It seems like its only White people that havent targeted the Sikh community, which just gives us MORE reason to side with the EDL!

================================================

Hahahaha!

Oh believe me EVERYTHING is permissible in Islam; you can justify almost ANYTHING if you did it according to Allahs will.

65:4: It is okay to have sex with Prepubescent girls

And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

4:3: You can have 4 wives and unlimited concubines/slaves that your right hand possess.

And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.

4:24: Forbidden from sex with a married Muslim women, but you can have sex with female captives and slaves. Also allows prostitution with Temporary Marriage.

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

4:28: Men cannot control themselves.

Allah wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak (cannot be patient to leave sexual intercourse with woman).

2:282: A woman is worth half that of a man.

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

98:6: Jews and Christians are unbelievers being the worst of creatures who will burn in hell

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

PLEASE tell me what the context is for any of this? Or are you simply lying about having read the Koran? I dont see how you can miss any of this!

================================================

The lip service of Imams and moderate Muslims is all at once patronizing, useless and LIES. They really dont care about any of the crimes Muslims commit against non-Muslims or even against even other Muslims (and they dont want us to interfere either), all they want to do is not look bad.

Muslims will FREELY misrepresent their own faith in order to convince us that it is harmless and further Islam, the Koran allows this.

================================================

I know about the Big Johns incident. That was in 2010 and the EDL was a year old. Now its 2013, what OTHER attacks on Muslim businesses have those in an EDL protest been involved in? Give me proof that this is a recurring trend and not an isolated incident.

I condemn any act of violence on innocent people, but you cant seriously tell me that cracking some windows and scaring some people in a crappy chicken shop is in the same LEAGUE as rape? Or actual terrorism?

Sikhs ransacked the shop in Leicester early THIS YEAR, because Muslim groomers exist THIS YEAR. A soldier was murdered in London and bomb plots were foiled THIS YEAR. These crimes by Muslims are RECURRING trends.

Also please tell me who is grooming Muslim girls? Who actually CARES enough to do that?

The EDL were born out of the will to combat the rubbish that comes out of the Islamic ideology and Muslims time and again. The problems existed LONG before 2009 I assure you...

Meaningful discussion? I WISH!

Where exactly were you when we were dealing with PakistaniPunjabi01? The only thing that came out of his keyboard was hilarious propaganda rubbish and childish insults. He was totally INCAPABLE of refuting Koran quotes and engaging in civilized discussions! Eventually he got himself banned.

I dont believe in Black Magic or any other superstitious nonsense, and I laugh at anyone who does. Sikhism looks down on superstition as you should know.

I ALSO believe that if Black Magic DID exist... the very LAST people who would be capable of actually using it would be Muslims. Muslim countries in case you cant tell are crapholes and they seriously need all the help they can get

You think Imam's are ANY use whatsoever? Listen to how Robert Spencer beats this guy down with basic Koran quotes. When confronted with REALITY, Muslims are paralyzed.

Youre free to call yourself a Liberal Westernized Sikh' (whatever that means, Sikhs have always had Liberal values) if you want. These days being a Liberal means youre either a Socialist AND/OR will probably bend over for whatever demands come your way.

However you have to ask yourself WHAT are you doing to help ensure that tragedy does not befall our Sikh community or ANY community ever again?

Whereas I am on this forum spreading truth, what are you spreading? Lies? Confusion? Are you just allowing evil to propagate? Think about that.

The EDL are an actual ANSWER to these terrible problems. A perfect answer? No, but its better than nothing and can be improved, and its definitely better than protecting Muslims with a veil of ignorance and hoping the problems go away as some seem to advocate here. We must tackle the issues head on if we are to succeed.

Wow. You are so arrogant. Unreal

[S4NGH]

The EDL may claim to be against Islamic extremism but their own actions are of extremists. They go outside Mosques while people are praying to almighty God, why on Earth do we want to ally ourselves to them? We Sikhs protect the rights of religious freedom not attack it, remember a couple of years ago during the London riots many Singhs guarded the Southall Mosque while our Muslim brothers prayed, that is what Sikhi is about. During that time we protected the Hindu jeweller shops which were a high priority for the looters, that is what Sikhi is about. Sikhi isn't about going to pubs while the EDL get tanked up and protest in the streets causing hatred in the community.

Sorry about the repeat post

Well said

[singh1986]

I forgot about this thread!

What a difference a few months make! It looks like Tommy Robinson himself agrees that the EDL is full of nazi racist extremists that kept getting invited back into the organisation and now run the organisation… that was pretty obvious in the first place… If the Sikh Defence League does still exist somewhere I wonder how they going to stand with these now completely outed white supremacists and racists?! I have a feeling that the cynics will say Tommy has been bought or become or muslim or something or black magic even!

However, he has chosen to join a moderate muslim organisation called Quilliam Foundation that look to fight Islamic extremism… I think I stated previously that there is such a thing as moderate muslims/imams in UK, which people found hard to believe. They really do exist! People like Imam Ibrahim Mogra that regularly speaks out agaisnt grooming etc. Also here is an organisation that everyone can support to fight Islamic extremism rather than shouting “who the f is allah” in a town centre. More Constructive what they do in my opinion.

Just briefly reading through all the posts people made from the Quran that they claim means Islam is evil, moderate Imams would state that those quotes are not applicable to muslims in these times/countries etc they would put them in a different time context!? and they would counteract those quotes with other ones that mean the exact opposite! I mean if some of the people quoting on here actually spoke to an Imam (which I am not, nor do I rep Islam) they would maybe stop hating muslims so much...

Also I have yet to find a Sufi Muslim that does not believe in Mohammad, how is that even possible?! Sufi Muslims also read the Quran!!!. Also it looks like basics of Sikhi guy Jagraj Singh I think his name is saying Guru Hargobind Ji built a Mosque – if this is such inaccurate info from an obviously learned Sikh then I wish someone would correct him and also correct the Nihangs of Tarna Dal… I’m inclined to listen to the views of Singhs/kaurs that evidently have a higher level of knowledge than me.

And Tandoori the issue about non-halal meat the only meat being prohibited in Sikhi is really being pushed in this thread by you to justify anti-Muslim arguments. (thought this was against forum rules?!). I personally look to the rehit of Damdami Taksal (hate mentioning Jathay) but I am against eating all forms of meat in Sikhi. But your gyan of Sikhi might be more than the majority of the rehit followed and handed down to Sikhs. I’m unwilling to accept non Halal Meat as acceptable. In my opinion all forms of animal slaughter is barbaric for you Halal seems to be only barbaric.

Also Proactive Ji I refer to a book called “Hari Singh Nalwa Champion of the Khalsa” that states Azaan was only banned for a short time in some areas to stop extremists preachers otherwise as stated previously the Sikh Raaj was tolerant and allowed the Azaan. I request you to provide one reputable source from a non Muslim that the Azaan had a blanket ban!? Another poster mentioned Sikh Raaj was renowed for being tolerant.

I would like apologise for referring to Guru Hargobind Ji with Singh at the end, it was done in error as I typed in haste. Im sorry if anyone else found that offensive or for anything else I have typed in error or caused offence. I dont proof read before posting and am error prone!

[Shaastar]

80 year Old OAP Joginder Singh was brutally attacked to the ground with his Dastar off and spat at the Edl Admin put up a link on Facebook.

instead of seeing sympathy a voice of Edl Followers put up comments like "f.. Asian pervert got what he deserved" " How dare he touch a girl" ..That seemed to drown out any sympathy with racial hatred without using the words "P..."

Edl founder Tommy went off to the BFP to enhance his Political Career back in 2010 new Edl Facebook Admins posted up article on "Race and ImmigratioN" talked about the negative effect other races had on Britain. This article was from earlier BNP publications.

a good deal of Edl followers were starting to come out of the closet some openly discussing they were Edl practically on street and voting for BNP ( despite Tommys assurances to the Public Edl and Bnp hated one another).Ok it might have cleared up a touch from 2010. But BNP Is no ordinary party its objective is to keep segregation and kick non whites out. Around that time Tommy came back and vowed to kick racists out.

I am pained apneh are going into these groups without knowing too much about them.

Edited Part 11.18am 13th Dec

( I apologise to Sangat for what was said of a deceased Sikh but those comments is what I had witnessed on facebook Edl Page as soon as The Admin put the link to the attack on. The comments were disgusting, I should have recorded them and showed the sangat. Please be aware of any group research into it yourself, spend time and study their activities, group consensus, go beyond the leadership Rhetoric to floor level to know what your getting into. In Past one man leadership may have binded that group but it dont mean hes repping all their concerns which can be racial). If we are to stand up to Grooming we have SAS in our own community.

[proactive]

The Jagmeet Singh poster was posted on the Sikhs against EDL site as proof that Sikhs and Muslims have great relations!!

If Jagraj Singh chooses to use the unsubstantiated story of Guru Ki Maseet in his parchar then that is his choice. Even if the Maseet story is true then why don't we see Guru Ki Maseets in all the towns that the Gurus founded. Is there such mosques in Amritsar, Goindwal, Kartarpur-Ravi, Anandpur Sahib, Kiratpur Sahib? Had this been a wide spread practice then just as each Gurdwara has a langar then each Gurdwara would have had a maseet next door built by Sikhs for the use of Muslims.

You talk about moderate Islam and moderate Imams! You are well and truly suckered by Islamic propaganda. The interesting thing about the Quilliam foundation is that the British convert whose name they use had beliefs exactly in line with the very extremists that the foundation claims to counter!

Watch this debate and you will realise that Maajid Nawaz of Quilliam Foundation's only argument in the end is that if non-Muslims accept that Islam is not a religion of peace the Muslims will then have no alternative but to get violent!!!