Edl 'sikh Divison'

[DalbirSingh]

It seems people who are concerned with sikhs converting to islam, sikh girls eloping with muslim boy, underage sikh girls being victims of pedophilles who happen to be from a muslim background who then also engage in human trafficking of sikh girls, we tend to hear about it quite abit but it seems perhaps people want to do something about it, the government seems to be slightly low profiled about it due to the political sensitivity impact it can have.

Plus tv channels, the news don't really care about sikhs as much as they care about the edl, when sikhs speak through the edl they get noticed by the media. So it could be a form of gathering attention. The edl don't appear to be a pure nazi party they might have nazi members or an undercover nazi agenda, but nazis in the past were haters of jews and didn't care much about muslims infact many nazis had alliances with muslims such as hitler and the mufti. Besides EDL don't seem to be condemning Israel.

[TandooriSingh]

In response to Tandoori

Nowhere did I state Guru Tegh Bahadur died for Hindusim… I agree he died for Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, equal rights, and defending the innocent and that includes muslims freedom of religion, equal rights etc!

I'm glad you agree Guru Tegh Bahadur didn't give his life for something so stupid as Political Correctness. He didn't care about stroking Hinduisms ego, just its right to exist.

Who is taking away a Muslims freedom of religion ASIDE from Muslims themselves? Nobody and definitely not the EDL. It's Islam that wants apostates to be KILLED remember?

Bukhari (52:260): "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Muslims can be Muslims, but Sharia Law CANNOT co-exist with the rest of the world it's just that simple. If they want Sharia Law they should go live in a Muslim country. The very same Muslim countries incidentally treating religious minorities (like Sikhs in Pakistan and Afghanistan) like crap.

Equal Rights would be BRILLIANT! Too bad Muslims aren't happy with JUST that and want to force their ways on everyone else. One law for them and one for everyone else. Whether it be the implementation of Sharia, or the police and government just being too AFRAID to tackle Muslim crimes.

This is exactly why issues such as grooming have been allowed to occur for so long and run rampant. Police knew plenty but didn't act because they were just afraid of being labelled racist.

And yes… Thankfully I have taken the time to read the Koran (not a good read in my opinion) and have sought understanding from Muslims who actually speak Arabic and study the Koran, do you read in Arabic or you relying on translations someone made for you?… copying and pasting translations from the internet unfortunately doesn’t give one the understanding of the Koran and Hadiths in my opinion. There are many Sufi and moderate muslims who could take you translations and put them in a different context/interpretation. That is the difference between extremists and moderates! You obviously believe that all Muslims follow your extremist translation. I know they don’t!!!!

You HAVE? Wow, I commend you because that's more than 99% of Muslims are capable of it seems!

Do you want to know what Koran I mostly use? It's FREE after all.

http://quran.com/

There you have the ORIGINAL Arabic text, and you have 6 of the MOST POPULAR AND RESPECTED English translations, all of which say the EXACT SAME THINGS.

There's nothing extreme about them, THIS is the Koran that ALMOST ALL Muslims follow whether you like it or not. Do you have BETTER translations of the Koran? Feel free to share with the world.

The Hadith are the same, there are various translations but all of them say EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

Do you know what Allah says about CONTEXT? It doesn't matter because the Koran is 'perfect'.

11:1: Book is clear and free from imperfection. It is explained in detail.

Alif-Lam-Ra. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Quran and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings]. (This is) a Book, the Verses whereof are perfected (in every sphere of knowledge, etc.), and then explained in detail from One (Allah), Who is All-Wise and Well-Acquainted (with all things).

9:29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah.

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Please tell me what possible CONTEXT is there for this other than what it actually says? Note that there are HUNDREDS of offending quotes, this is just one.

The idea of having to be able to read Arabic to understand the Koran is also preposterous.

What percentage of the 1.5+ billion Muslims in the world can ACTUALLY read Arabic? The answer is not very high. Even Muslims who were taught to recite the Koran in Arabic in Madrassas generally have NO idea what any of it even means. How RIDICULOUS would it be if you HAD to be able to read Arabic in order to 'understand' the Koran? What does that say about the majority of Muslims who don't know any Arabic?

There are many sects of Islam, and they pretty much all hate and consider each other heretics. To the vast majority of Muslims Sufism isn't even Islam. Most of the Muslims in the UK are Pakistani Sunni (Orthodox) Muslims and follow the EXACT translations I have shown you.

I already said, the ONLY distinction between a 'moderate' and a 'radical' Muslim is simply how CLOSE they are following the Koran to the very letter. Osama Bin Laden was a VERY good Muslim for example! I'm sure many 'moderate' Western Muslims are HORRIFIED by what they actually know about the Koran.

I'm sorry my friend but you do not even know the half of it, even child grooming can be justified in the Koran alone.

Once again although I respect your understanding and knowledge of the term “Kuttha Meat” (never heard of this one before, where the Gurus also anti-Jewish then?!?). However, I would be interested in listening/reading your logic when this argument is put forth to Taksali/AKJ etc Singhs… and others who interpret Kutha as in meat full stop and nothing to do with Islam!? Which is what I personally believe…

The Guru's rejected ALL FORMS of ritual slaughter. This would include Muslim Halal, Jewish Kosher, and rituals that were performed by certain Hindu sects at the time.

It's not about being 'anti-religion', it's about not agreeing with clearly ridiculous and BARBARIC practices. Have you actually seen Halal slaughter taking place? It's disgusting. Look it up on Youtube.

No, Sikhs are ALLOWED to eat meat and it is considered purely a personal choice, our Guru's ate meat and were skilled hunters don't forget. Sikh warriors taking shelter in the forests, hills and jungles during times of war couldn't possibly sustain themselves without meat.

Kutha Meat is strictly forbidden. The meat Sikhs eat must be 'Jhatka' which means INSTANT KILL, the animal should have to endure the LEAST amount of suffering possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhatka

You can believe what you want, but the truth is absolute and won't change. I am TOTALLY AGAINST any misrepresentation of our faith.

You might argue that there is no evidence that Guru Hargobind Singh Ji did not build a mosque but I personally take the word of Baba Kirtan Singh (Tarna Dal) who has stated that the Mosque was built by Guru Sahib. But hey… once again I respect your view if you think Baba Ji is just speculating I personally don’t think Baba ji would speculate that his Jatha have been looking after the mosque.

Others have argued this point for me, all I can say for now is that there seems to be more evidence AGAINST the idea that Guru Hargobind built a Mosque than FOR it.

I would also like to point out that azans where only banned by Sikhs in some areas to prevent extremist Muslim preachers from gaining a platform to launch attacks on Sikh Empire and cause disharmony in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs reign. Its Muslim authors who propagate Sikhs to have been intolerant rulers who banned the Azan all across the Empire. I’m surprised you’re paraphrasing the rhetoric of Anti-Sikh authors. Talking of this period… I am proud that Sikhs did not stop Muslims from practicing Islam imagine the EDL in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs reign and its not as if they didn’t have to deal with Islamic extremism then… its just that they knew not to bash the whole of Islam.

Where is the evidence that the Azaan was banned only in SOME areas of the Sikh Empire? Honestly crazy preachers really don't need to try all that hard to reach their audience unfortunately...

Any evidence for Sikhs even being CLOSE to intolerant rulers to Muslims is incredibly weak, and the sources are hard to trace. Simply banning the Azaan would not make it so anyway, that's just called COMMON SENSE! I actually HOPE they did universally ban the Azaan. It shouldn't exist, it's simply annoying to anyone who isn't Muslim.

Imagine if Gurdwara's started blasting out our ideology (nevermind calls to war) on loudspeakers? Or any other religion did? HOW would Muslims react to that? I doubt they would appreciate it, they'd hit the streets in seconds!

Either EVERYONE should have their own 'Azaan' or nobody should have one. That is how equal rights works.

Again, you're stating that the EDL want Muslims to simply DISAPPEAR. This is false and there is NO evidence of this. Muslims have been part of EDL protests, and the EDL leadership has stated time and again they are against the ideology, encroaching Sharia Law and the Political Correctness that protects Islam, NOT individual Muslims. Muslims themselves are actually the first victims of Islam.

How is this anything but logical? Don’t you think Muslims paedophiles should be sent to jail JUST as quickly as any other?

Fact of the matter is Muslims aren't going anywhere and they won't change Islam. This is EXACTLY why pressing issues need to be sorted out NOW.

I would also like to point out that the case in Leicester also had Gujarati Hindu groomers involved and it wasn’t only guys from a muslim background! I would also like to point out that all the major Imams in Leicester condemned the groomers involved and Child grooming full stop, surely if you have the read the Koran and are knowledgeable about the true nature of Islam you would know such activities are not permitted in Islam! And yet the voice of the Imams is often ignored. And let me remind people if it has been forgotten that talking of Leicester… It was in Leicester itself in Big Johns restaurant that EDL members smashed the place up whilst the place was full of women and children who in terror had to hide in the kitchens whist drunken thugs ran amok! So yes they do smash up Muslim shops and businesses… anytime they enter a Muslim dominated area that’s what they do… I can’t believe even this point is up for debate when those who have bothered to go to an area once EDL have left will see the drunken mess they have left!

I already mentioned that one of the men who were arrested was of a Hindu background, but going by the names released its possible there were two. Names can be deceiving but I'll go with it anyway. Rotten filth comes in all forms.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Child-exploitation-case-ndash-court/story-18100272-detail/story.html#axzz2aCbGeuFv

Fact is MOST of the names here are Muslim names, and the shop that was ransacked by Sikhs was Muslim owned. The VAST MAJORITY of street based grooming in the UK and beyond is committed by Muslims. Muslims were CLEARLY at the heart of this grooming ‘gang’. I don’t like using the term ‘gang’ because that gives the illusion that these losers are to be feared.

What do the few Hindu names among them prove? All it proves is the fact that we can’t trust Hindu’s to sell out both THEMSELVES and of course US to these sick idiots. Some Hindu’s are willing to side with these guys, or give them money to get time with their ‘girls’.

You’re forgetting Hindu’s have suffered WAY more than Sikhs when it comes to any of the problems Muslims have caused historically and today. The Sikh population worldwide is just over 30 million, and there are billions of Hindu’s. There are well over twice as many Hindu’s in the UK than Sikhs. How many grooming victims do you think Hindu’s have racked up? It’s about as disgraceful as it gets if a Hindu is involved is this crap.

You’ve just proved my point really. It seems like its only White people that haven’t targeted the Sikh community, which just gives us MORE reason to side with the EDL!

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Hahahaha!

Oh believe me EVERYTHING is permissible in Islam; you can justify almost ANYTHING if you did it according to Allah’s will.

65:4: It is okay to have sex with Prepubescent girls

And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

4:3: You can have 4 wives and unlimited concubines/slaves ‘that your right hand possess’.

And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.

4:24: Forbidden from sex with a married Muslim women, but you can have sex with female captives and slaves. Also allows prostitution with ‘Temporary Marriage’.

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

4:28: Men cannot control themselves.

Allah wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak (cannot be patient to leave sexual intercourse with woman).

2:282: A woman is worth half that of a man.

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

98:6: Jews and Christians are unbelievers being the worst of creatures who will burn in hell

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

PLEASE tell me what the context is for any of this? Or are you simply lying about having read the Koran? I don’t see how you can miss any of this!

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The lip service of Imams and ‘moderate’ Muslims is all at once patronizing, useless and LIES. They really don’t care about any of the crimes Muslims commit against non-Muslims or even against even other Muslims (and they don’t want us to interfere either), all they want to do is not look bad.

Muslims will FREELY misrepresent their own faith in order to convince us that it is harmless and further Islam, the Koran allows this.

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I know about the ‘Big Johns’ incident. That was in 2010 and the EDL was a year old. Now it’s 2013, what OTHER attacks on Muslim businesses have those in an EDL protest been involved in? Give me proof that this is a recurring trend and not an isolated incident.

I condemn any act of violence on innocent people, but you can’t seriously tell me that cracking some windows and scaring some people in a crappy chicken shop is in the same LEAGUE as rape? Or actual terrorism?

Sikhs ransacked the shop in Leicester early THIS YEAR, because Muslim groomers exist THIS YEAR. A soldier was murdered in London and bomb plots were foiled THIS YEAR. These crimes by Muslims are RECURRING trends.

Also please tell me who is grooming Muslim girls? Who actually CARES enough to do that?

Like I said previously the EDL did not come out of nowhere…. But having pure hate of Islam and all muslims in my opinion is wrong. And I think this is the difference… I do wonder whether some people are so paranoid that muslims are calling them “kaffirs” and doing “black magic” and trying to “convert” them that they are unable to engage in meaningful engagement and discussion with practicing muslims. Anyone actually spoken to an Imam!? Or is this stuff just picked up from Internet and youtube?! They aren’t out to get you!!!

I think this is just one of those things where some Sikhs think its acceptable to team up with the EDL… I say good luck to them. I personally don’t find their views/actions compatible with Sikhi! But that just might me being a “liberal westernised Sikh" I suppose...

The EDL were born out of the will to combat the rubbish that comes out of the Islamic ideology and Muslims time and again. The problems existed LONG before 2009 I assure you...

Meaningful discussion? I WISH!

Where exactly were you when we were dealing with PakistaniPunjabi01? The only thing that came out of his keyboard was hilarious propaganda rubbish and childish insults. He was totally INCAPABLE of refuting Koran quotes and engaging in civilized discussions! Eventually he got himself banned.

I don’t believe in ‘Black Magic’ or any other superstitious nonsense, and I laugh at anyone who does. Sikhism looks down on superstition as you should know.

I ALSO believe that if ‘Black Magic’ DID exist... the very LAST people who would be capable of actually using it would be Muslims. Muslim countries in case you can’t tell are crapholes and they seriously need all the help they can get

You think Imam's are ANY use whatsoever? Listen to how Robert Spencer beats this guy down with basic Koran quotes. When confronted with REALITY, Muslims are paralyzed.

You’re free to call yourself a ’Liberal Westernized Sikh' (whatever that means, Sikhs have always had Liberal values) if you want. These days being a Liberal means you’re either a Socialist AND/OR will probably bend over for whatever demands come your way.

However you have to ask yourself WHAT are you doing to help ensure that tragedy does not befall our Sikh community or ANY community ever again?

Whereas I am on this forum spreading truth, what are you spreading? Lies? Confusion? Are you just allowing evil to propagate? Think about that.

The EDL are an actual ANSWER to these terrible problems. A perfect answer? No, but it’s better than nothing and can be improved, and it’s definitely better than protecting Muslims with a veil of ignorance and hoping the problems go away as some seem to advocate here. We must tackle the issues head on if we are to succeed.

[singh_comradz]

i support them, there is no sikh movement or even enough unity between the youth to tackle any issues within our community properly so why not give this a try

from browsing this site and occasionly posting i can already see that most people on here live sheltered lives and have probably never had any issues with the muslim community, so you wont understand, all this awareness, internet groups and gurdwara meetings with pappus wont solve anything

I've been in loads of fights with muslims from when I was younger, that includes ending up in hospital, so I'd disagree about the 'sheltered life' view you have and I'm sure many else will given their own experiences.

If we're truly worried about the 'spread of Islam' and think the answer is siding with white vigilante gangs or acting like gangsters, then we need to have more faith in Guru Sahib.

No doubt there are loads of Muslim extremists and we've all seen what their mission is, but we need to focus and gain strength of reading baani and following Maharaaj.

Having said that, respect to groups who have protected the honour of our community, against anyone who wishes to harm it.

By following Maharaaj, that's where singhs get their strength.

But agree with you that there are too many pappu's in the community, we see them come out of the woodwork when the youth protest or do something for a worthwhile cause.

[DalbirSingh]

Guru Sahib in his own ithais would be on the side of those who shared a common goal, like when it came to over throwing aurangzeb to put bahadur shah zafar on the throne of india considering him to be more tolerant, guru sahib sent singhs to fight for him, in a war people do get shaheed and guru sahib was given much rewards by bahadur shah zafar until he changed his tune and attacked the sikhs. What history teaches us is we should stand for truth so what if a few people who stand between truth and other things, we should stand with them when they are in the moment of truth.

[mrggg123]

did partition + british empire teach u guys nothing? Never side with the goreh. KDL sounds like a good idea 'khalistan defence league', don't go with the goreh, we've seen whats happened in the past.

[satbachan96]

mr gg sounds like a paki, im sure he is.....maybe pakistani panjabi...remember him...sikh never have been or never will be a sidekick or support to any other....hindus asked our help and goreh in world wars.. we stand independant in the name of our guru...people think we are joining edl in fight against muslim peodos... noo... edl are coming to lean on our sholders as we have fought this battle for many years....

[satbachan96]

The people here advocating hate of muslims, understand one thing.

When muslims killed millions of hindus during moghul raaj, none of the Guru Sahibaans preached hate towards one religion. Instead they raised the sword against the tyrant, regardlesss of what religion the tyrant followed, whether it was the moghuls, afghans, or hindu hill rajas.

Their actions set a precedent for us to follow.

veerji... when guru ji say muslim/sikh/hindu they are saying for the benefit of communication. lets face it veer ji majority of so called sikhs are thosr who were given birth to panjabi born parents who do not practice jaap of gurbani...so guru ji was talikin about real muslims/sikgs/hindus....but majority call them selves as muslim/sikh etc but they are not....

please appreciate the limite convo on forums.....so when guru ji is saying of real muslims and hindus he id talking of atam gyanis...but for the benifit of us idiots to underdtand guru ji says muslik/hindu....

[mrggg123]

im no pakistani

mr gg sounds like a paki, im sure he is.....maybe pakistani panjabi...remember him...sikh never have been or never will be a sidekick or support to any other....hindus asked our help and goreh in world wars.. we stand independant in the name of our guru...people think we are joining edl in fight against muslim peodos... noo... edl are coming to lean on our sholders as we have fought this battle for many years....

bro im no Pakistani just because I have gs in my name dosent mean those gs stand for gangster. Im just warning u guys look how racist goreh are to our ppl even today. Look in Canada Vancouver goreh used to be racist, apneh stood up to them now apenh in Vancouver have become the biggest gangsters in the world. Fair enough hate on some Pakistanis who are targeting us, but a word of warning goreh don't care a thing for us, they are using us as puppets. The only way we can insure our own kaum is to unite together as brothers instead of this gudwara caste crap, look at the riots we need that all the time. Sikhs in southall make me proud if it wasn't for southall we would have nothing.

[DalbirSingh]

im no pakistani

bro im no Pakistani just because I have gs in my name dosent mean those gs stand for gangster. Im just warning u guys look how racist goreh are to our ppl even today. Look in Canada Vancouver goreh used to be racist, apneh stood up to them now apenh in Vancouver have become the biggest gangsters in the world. Fair enough hate on some Pakistanis who are targeting us, but a word of warning goreh don't care a thing for us, they are using us as puppets. The only way we can insure our own kaum is to unite together as brothers instead of this gudwara caste crap, look at the riots we need that all the time. Sikhs in southall make me proud if it wasn't for southall we would have nothing.

Compare that to sikhs living in afghanistan and pakistan, then pick the lesser of the evils.

[mrggg123]

Compare that to sikhs living in afghanistan and pakistan, then pick the lesser of the evils.

i agree paaji our ppl are being treated hasrshly in these muslim countries.

All im saying is no one wants to help Sikhs. Pakistanis could help Sikhs by letting them have Lahore and moving from India where we are being persecuted. The goreh don't care a thing for apneh. Look how much we protest, they wont help us out. Instead they will give foreign aid to muslim countries, nothing to Sikhs. Most of our people pretend to be goreh, its shameful. These goreh split india and Pakistan up and spat in our face.

No one is our friend. The only people we cant trust is ourseleves. Until we sort the unity out in the Gudwaras etc, we wont make much progress. Im busy at the moment, but mark my words, I am going to try and make a difference. Look whats happened in America people have sprayed 'terrorist' across our gudwara, why are the American people not making anyone aware? Look what happened in the riots, muslims made a mockery out of us on sangat Tv, but no one said a thing. Once we have that unity, and be tight knit like the Pakistani community that's when things will change. Only place that happens is in Southall.