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Want To Cut Kesh After 10 Years As An Amritdari/keshdari - Please Advise


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Without providing a valid reason for wanting to cut your hair it's a bit nonsensical asking for a counter, at the end of the day it's your personal choice, the worst thing you can do is be something that you really don't believe in, my experience is this, I took Amrit when i was young because my whole family did so they expected me to follow in their path, they had taken Amrit a few years previously, I had very little knowledge of the responsibility it carried but i tried my best, i grew older, followed the path of Sikhi but found myself drifting away, i'm now in my 40's, i never cut my kesh, never ate meat or drank alcohol or had any other vices, i do however trim my beard so yes I broke the sacred bond I made with the Guru but after many conversations with my parents they have realised that they should not have made me and my sibling's take Amrit at such a young age without us understanding the responsibilities that come with it. I now find my self re-learning everything about Sikhi but this time I'm doing it because i want to and because my children want to and i actually find myself closer to Waheguru now than I ever was before, maybe one day if i'm ready i may take Amrit again.

As far as guilt tripping goes there is plenty of it about but Sikhism has taken a somewhat fascinating turn over the last few years where the younger generation are encouraged to learn and make up their own minds as opposed to the old fashioned "your going to disappoint everybody of you don't follow the path" lectures but, like i've already mentioned, without providing a valid argument your basically just asking people to counter a general argument.

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I think you are confused as to what a sehajdhari sikh is , Guru Nanak Dev ji set the requirement for kesh not Guru Gobind SIngh ji it was the first rehit given to Bhai Mardana, so even being a sehajdh

maybe he could see what you couldn't ... that we ALL are people of one breath , the current one ...there are no guarantees for the next and the last one is gone ...we should use every precious breath

if you cut kesh you will loose gurus mohar hence you wont be a sikh anymore sehajdhari means who has kept kesh and will continue to grow it slowly not the modern version people who cut kesh dont fo

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Disclaimer: I am also a Western educated person with a thorough background in the sciences. While my particular interests lie in Biology, I am a pharmacist by profession, which means chemistry was an emphasis in my education.

Why did I tell you the above? Because if you think education in the Western system is somehow a means to dismiss the "backward" thoughts of religion, you are delusional and frankly must not have done a single day of Nitnem in your life.

Warning: The below is about to get brutal. I think it is deserved, as you are already leaning towards cutting your kesh after being Amritdhari and you need some good old fashion yelling.

Human condition is EXACTLY what Gurbani addresses. Science can make new inventions, it can made life "easier", but it has NOT resolved the affairs of the human condition. People are truly less happy now then they were before. Comforts do not equate to happiness. The world is diving further and further into a materialistic frenzy, desperately looking to satisfy their needs externally rather than internally, where self contentment is the true key to happiness. Guess what - GURBANI SAYS THIS.

What you fail to realize is that one of the stages of Simran is "Gurmukh Rom Rom Har Dhaivai" - you want to cut off the very machinery that will drive Naam Simran? Naam Simran that is the very core of Sikhi and the very tool that Guru Sahib gave to you to (eventually) do Simran with, you want to eliminate. You think the Gurus arbitrarily made hair sacred for a Sikh? Do even know that hair is something that was sacred to the Jews (read the Bibile - God's command as delivered through Moses), the Hindus (read what punishment was relegated to Brahmins for the highest crimes), Christians (Jesus of Nazereth - read about the Nazerenes) and many others? They weren't all stupid or irrational. Hair is a very important tool for spiritual progress, but you want to eliminate it and maintain a spiritual "patit" jeevan (oxymoron).

Basically, it sounds like you did not get into Sikhi for the right reasons or knew why you were getting into Sikhi. It is not about guilt tripping and what others did. We as a Panth have to understand that this is not a sustainable means of getting our youth involved into Sikhi. There is a spiritual reason for what the Gurus did - ALL OF IT. Your statement about setting aside religion for science to solve the human condition point to a severe deficit of understanding what Gurbani actually says. You REALLY need to read and understand Gurbani first. When you heard about those Shaheeds, did you ever wonder WHY they made all of those sacrifices? What was do precious about Sikhi to them that they were willing to die? Perhaps you should spend some time contemplating the WHY more than the actions themselves.

You can be a sehajdhari and do Naam Simran? Sure, anyone can do recitation of the Gurmantar - why even have Amrit at all? When Gurbani says that the very name of a Nirgura is bad, what do you think your status will be as a patit? Naam Kamai - actual earning of Naam that will count in the end to its full potential - can ONLY be done by an Amritdhari Gursikh. Naam Simran will impart some benefits to any who recite it, but its full accounting and kamai is for the Amritdhari Gursikh.

What Guru would accept your donation of 10% when you have retracted your head that you gave to the Guru? It's like saying to your parents that you are no longer their son/daughter, but will still pay rent for living there - yeah, slightly insulting.

You are breaking the covenant between you and the Guru and the only Darshan you will have is of Jamdoots, who will not be kind. But if I tell you more about that, you will blame me for guilt tripping you or scaring you back towards Sikhi.

Look, let me put it this way. By whatever means, you have entered into Sikhi. It does not sound like you have good Sangat at all. You owe it to yourself to get some good Sangat of learned Gursikhs and start to read and understand Gurbani. Ask your questions to them and they will respond. But truth be told, when one does Sangat of Gursikhs, questions disappear themselves. One does not get answers - one stops asking because the questions lose their importance. When you read Gurbani, UNDERSTAND its meanings. Try to feel its meanings. For a Sikh, mere reading is not enough - understanding and finally FOLLOWING Gurbani's teachings is key. You need to discover what Gurbani actually says, how it relates to the human condition and the solutions it offers. I doubt you are getting any Anand from (or doing) any Naam Simran 0 if you were, the peace and tranquility it delivers would be enough to never question your being an Amritdhari Sikh. How long have you been ignoring Nitnem, Rehat and other things? You can probably graph your own looseness in Rehat and Gursikhi with the rise of doubts and your current state.

What will be will be. Cut hair or not, it will not make a difference to Sikhi. Vaheguru created the Khalsa and Vaheguru will always have victory. This is about you. You need to sort it out, do a bit more delving into what Sikhi actually is before you make whatever decision you are about to make. You have, frankly, failed to make any positive progress alone or with whatever Sangat you have been associating. You really need some Gursikh sangat to address your spiritual needs and get any understanding of Gurbani that has escaped you for 10 years. This is for your own betterment, nobody else. Sikhi is not about doing favors for anyone - it is for you to awaken your true nature and essence and going beyond the materialistic presentation of the world.

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Guest anongram101

ms514 ji

But let’s just pretend that I had 1) Really done nitnem 2) Devolved into Sikh, via books & katha 3) Had done sangat of sikhs who you class as chardikala sikhs….. then the answer is still that in the eyes of informed Sikhs such as ms514 , and according to accepted Sikh Canon/Theology I would be a worthless patit.

Basically ms514, your reply was the one I was waiting for…

Regardless of the Jamdhoots, afterlife, 84 lakh cycle…right here and now, being a patit in the Sikh community is far too high a price to pay. Essentially there is no way to leave Amrit without being an outcast. I suppose I’ll take your suggestion about being a better Amritdari Sikh, since there is no alternative.

Thank you

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Guest anongram101

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

ms514 ji, I have some more points I want to put to you.

I do believe in Gurbani, and in all honesty believe in amrit, and in Khalsa Panth- but I wanted/ part of me still wants to opt out. I can assure you I have delved quite deeply in the meaning of Naam, and the spiritual stages a bhagat goes through. I have tested the saying/vajan of modern day Mahapurak Brahmgiani Sikhs. A modern day respected Mahapurak said that if a Sikh does 20 Japji Sahib, he will get what he desires. I tested this by attempting to do 20 Japji Sahibs a day, though at that time the most I managed was 14 in a day, my hearts desire was granted to me (despite the extreme unlikelyhood of the occurence under normal circumstances). The reason I took amrit was I read 'bandgi nama by raghbir singh bir'.

But over the last 10 years, what has influenced my thinking or approach to make the comparison between bhagati, and secular intellectual pursuits, particularly in the sciences, though not restricted to science are the following:

K. Anders Ericsson's work on 'expertise'
Mike csikszentmihalyi's work on 'flow states'
Carol Dweck's work on 'mindset'

Other Authors/Researchers work on 'Mastery'

& in general empiricism and deductive reasoning.

Due to this influence, I had started to imagine myself as a Sikh with cut hair. I suppose it was/still is a case of having my cake and eating it to. I'm not hurting anyone.

I would greatly appreciate any comments,

Kind Regards,

Anon

PS

Historically and right up until WW1, if troops tried to leave the battlefield, or refuse to follow orders, they were usually killed (troops shot for cowardice by british in WW1), even tortured to death (i.e. romans). Even in modern times there is usually prison time to serve (i.e. soliders awol in USA). So when Guru ji, let the 40 sikhs go, with only having to write a bedwaa, that was the most compassionate, lenient act in the history of warfare.

Today whereas, a Sikh who wants to leave amrit, is given the most severe penalty by modern day sikhs, short of violence i.e. being Patit outcaste. Thats severe. It's the absolute maximum penalty one can be given,

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

ms514 ji, I have some more points I want to put to you.

I do believe in Gurbani, and in all honesty believe in amrit, and in Khalsa Panth- but I wanted/ part of me still wants to opt out. I can assure you I have delved quite deeply in the meaning of Naam, and the spiritual stages a bhagat goes through. I have tested the saying/vajan of modern day Mahapurak Brahmgiani Sikhs. A modern day respected Mahapurak said that if a Sikh does 20 Japji Sahib, he will get what he desires. I tested this by attempting to do 20 Japji Sahibs a day, though at that time the most I managed was 14 in a day, my hearts desire was granted to me (despite the extreme unlikelyhood of the occurence under normal circumstances). The reason I took amrit was I read 'bandgi nama by raghbir singh bir'.

But over the last 10 years, what has influenced my thinking or approach to make the comparison between bhagati, and secular intellectual pursuits, particularly in the sciences, though not restricted to science are the following:

K. Anders Ericsson's work on 'expertise'

Mike csikszentmihalyi's work on 'flow states'

Carol Dweck's work on 'mindset'

Other Authors/Researchers work on 'Mastery'

& in general empiricism and deductive reasoning.

Due to this influence, I had started to imagine myself as a Sikh with cut hair. I suppose it was/still is a case of having my cake and eating it to. I'm not hurting anyone.

I would greatly appreciate any comments,

Kind Regards,

Anon

PS

Historically and right up until WW1, if troops tried to leave the battlefield, or refuse to follow orders, they were usually killed (troops shot for cowardice by british in WW1), even tortured to death (i.e. romans). Even in modern times there is usually prison time to serve (i.e. soliders awol in USA). So when Guru ji, let the 40 sikhs go, with only having to write a bedwaa, that was the most compassionate, lenient act in the history of warfare.

Today whereas, a Sikh who wants to leave amrit, is given the most severe penalty by modern day sikhs, short of violence i.e. being Patit outcaste. Thats severe. It's the absolute maximum penalty one can be given,

you cannot be a sikh without kesh it is the sign of the pritam rehit given by Guru Nanak Dev ji ...so if you cannot obey the Guru then why should you expect Him to treat you the same as those who give their all for their Guru ji?? You mind and ego has hoodwinked you , secular gian is as nothing in front of that of Gurbani ...

are you married? because you would be affecting her 100 % and that is hurting her

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A gursikh once told me, There is no bad person, only bad actions.

So Amritdharis generally stay away from patits. Any Amritdhari that understands Sikhi will not look at patits as evil, or bad, or hate them. they will just stay away, simply because our sangat greatly influences us. Greatly. It is extremely foolish to think that our sangat does not influence us. I have seen many amritdharis become patits in high school, simply because they hung out with people with no regard for Sikhi. Its not that people should hate others. But being a slight loner in school and staying amritdhari is better than becoming so social with everyone that doesn't care about sikhi that the Amritdhari also loses interest. People might say that this is extreme, but I have seen so many kids around my age leave Sikhi. All of them were too involved with people that did not care about Sikhi. If this is extreme, then why have so many Amritdharis left Sikhi?

So we don't hate anyone. But we have to save ourselves. I can't stress enough about how sangat has an effect on us. I think a lot of people underestimate it. If you watch the Basics of Sikhi calgary katha of baljeet singh and his journey to sikhi there are some bani quotes in it in the second half of the video.

He gives some bani to support keeping good sangat and some bani to support the fact that only sants are capable of not leaving their disposition no matter who they meet, but all of the rest of us should save ourselves. I personally think that guru sahib will let me know when I am capable of changing others for the better. When I am given the seva I will carry it out. Until then, I save myself.

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I am not a deep study of western philosophy or a great admirer of it. I had taken Western Philosophy in college and found the thought process of Western philosophers very basic and rather boring. Much of the philosophy seemed to confuse one rather than enlighten. I personally was not impressed. Most appeared as self centered and attempts to rationalize the experience with the 5 senses and make sense of everything by using a limited human intellect that cannot see beyond its limited sensory perception and limited mental capabilities.

Sikhi is a game of love. Those who have been blessed with the drive to do Naam Simran and delve into what Gurbani says (and then follow) fall deeper and deeper in love. But that is why Gurprasad is in the Mool Mantar - it requires the Almighty Grace on a Sikh to be so enamored. This is not a path of discussion or musing about whether the table exists after you cease to experience it with your senses. This is a quest for reuniting desperately with the Almighty. It is an experience. Gurbani is not a dry philosophy for debates - it drives at the very core of a human with passion and depth that one realizes, not understands. Gurbani reveals and appeals to the inner self and brings forth a drive to work towards a relationship with that Almighty, all pervading God, all the while being driven further and further mad and less attached to the ways of the world based in materialism and sensory satisfaction.

I think I cannot explain this well enough - it is something Sikhs experience and don't/can't really put on paper and tell you how it is perceived in the 5 senses.

As you are possibly Amritdhari longer than I am, please do give some insight to the deeper meaning of Naam and what you have discovered about it. It would be good to get more experienced Sikhs to reveal what they have discovered.

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I stumbled on this forum by chance and when I read your comments many thoughts raced through my head so I have jotted them down as fast as I could. Please accept this as my opinion of my understanding of being a Sikh.

You are not the first one to want to do do this and won't be the last one. There are uncountable number of staunch amritdhari sikhs who have become disillusioned with their situation in life due to mutlifactorial issues. When we come into this life some of us are born into sikh families but we are not really Sikh until we understand it and choose it as our path to follow - until then we are blind followers or brainwashed. Sooner or later we all come to a stage in life when we want answers, hopefully not too late in life but better late than never. I have met a lot of Sikhs, from gianis to raagis to kathakars and so called "sants" , and as one says you never truly know someone unless you have lived with them - I can truly say I only know one who follows the path of righteousness and lives a life of a Sikh as the Gurus say. I am fortunate to have the experience of this unique simple Sikh, as I believe there can only be a handful like him that have reached a spiritual stage through true bandagi.

Sikh Dharm (Dharm= path of righteousness) is a way of life through a philosophy laid down by Parmatma through the Guru - "khasam ki bani". One human life time was not enough so as you know it took several years through a succession of Gurus. You first have to have faith and belief in the teaching of the Gurus and then you have to try to understand what this is through your own "khoj" or research. There are too many Sikhs preaching rather than practicing what they preach and too many of us find it easier to listen to these people as it is easier because you think they have done all the necessary research - just like you take your teachers word for granted because they have done a degree in their subject. Unfortunately, there is no degree on Sikh Dharm and you are going to have to do your own PhD!

Do not worry that you are having these thoughts. It is good to question everything that bothers you - and this is usually through ignorance or misunderstanding, though in your case seems like the second one is applicable. Remember Guru Nanak's sons did not follow him - if a Guru cannot change his son's thinking and accepts God's will you should not feel bad for questioning your way of life. The sangat we keep has an undeniable influence on us and the only way to deflect this is through the teachings of our Gurus - of nam japna, kirt karna and Seva; where you reach a stage of spiritual awareness that has like a forcefield around you. A lot of people do Seva , simran and kirt but still do not find contentment and inner peace - this is because their expectation comes through 3rd party information. When you do your own "Khoj and bandagi" you start to feel a change in you and then each time you do your nitnem or simran you want more of it - you find a "taste" you have not had before. Then it starts to have a positive effect on everything you do at home and work, in social interactions and daily life. You will realise that everything that happens in your life, both good and bad, is a result of His will determined through your karm.

Our Bani reminds us repeatedly , know who you are and where you have come from and where you are going. You are "atma" (soul) on a journey to "Parmatma" (supreme soul) . This journey through Sikh Dharm is a journey of "Prem" (love) , truth and helping the needy, and you have a choice to follow whatever path you wish.

Regarding keeping uncut hair: having amrit and keeping the 5 Ks do not make you a sikh - you have to read, research, understand and then practice the teachings of the Gurus- as I said already you have to have faith in your teacher the Guru, and therefore all their teachings. So in Sikh Dharm you cannot separate teachings from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji - they were the 1st to the 10th Nanaks so all one. It is true that at that time Sikhs would not all have uncut. My belief is that this was a gradual process over the time of the Gurus culminating in the final form that Parmatma had for us. As Rome was not built in a day, the Gurus laid the foundations over time so that Sikhs would have a strong base to flourish from. So just as a house is unstable without foundations, so it is not complete without a roof- therefore the Gurus teachings start with the 1st Nanak and complete with the 10th Nanak and a Sikh is complete with his/her uncut hair. I am sure you have read the basics of the Dasam Granth - if not please do.

In my opinion you are fortunate to have exposure to Sikh Dharm and you should try to understand Sikh philosophy of life. If you still wish to reject this path then as you say "so be it" - but you will have tried. Just remember whatever you do in this life will go with you to the next - unless, of course, you attain mukti in this one - and Sikh Dharm teaches us that this is possible. You can look at any other religion but you will still need to research into it before you reach wherever it is you want. If you do nothing and carry on as you are you will remain in doubt and discontent.

Whatever decision you make I hope you are happy with it.

Wishing you well,

From Another Sikh viewpoint.

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Guest Anongram101

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I am not a deep study of western philosophy or a great admirer of it. I had taken Western Philosophy in college and found the thought process of Western philosophers very basic and rather boring. Much of the philosophy seemed to confuse one rather than enlighten. I personally was not impressed. Most appeared as self centered and attempts to rationalize the experience with the 5 senses and make sense of everything by using a limited human intellect that cannot see beyond its limited sensory perception and limited mental capabilities.

Sikhi is a game of love. Those who have been blessed with the drive to do Naam Simran and delve into what Gurbani says (and then follow) fall deeper and deeper in love. But that is why Gurprasad is in the Mool Mantar - it requires the Almighty Grace on a Sikh to be so enamored. This is not a path of discussion or musing about whether the table exists after you cease to experience it with your senses. This is a quest for reuniting desperately with the Almighty. It is an experience. Gurbani is not a dry philosophy for debates - it drives at the very core of a human with passion and depth that one realizes, not understands. Gurbani reveals and appeals to the inner self and brings forth a drive to work towards a relationship with that Almighty, all pervading God, all the while being driven further and further mad and less attached to the ways of the world based in materialism and sensory satisfaction.

I think I cannot explain this well enough - it is something Sikhs experience and don't/can't really put on paper and tell you how it is perceived in the 5 senses.

As you are possibly Amritdhari longer than I am, please do give some insight to the deeper meaning of Naam and what you have discovered about it. It would be good to get more experienced Sikhs to reveal what they have discovered.

In my almost 10 years as an Amritdari, I see parallels with the below, with Sikhi & Naam:

K. Anders Ericsson's work on 'expertise', states that to be an expert in any domain, an individual needs 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. Deliberate practice, meaning practice done with intense focus, with an aim of continuous improvement. Essentially his research proved to be an expert, you need minimum of 10,000 hours of quality practice. This 10k rule applies to Surgeons, Mathematicians, even Athletes. Parallels with Naam Kamai Concept?

Mike csikszentmihalyi's work on 'flow states', States that when an individual truly focuses on a task, becomes one with it, a state of flow is experienced. In this state of flow, the perception of time alters radically, hours seem like minutes, while seconds seem like endless hours. Often individual who engage in extreme sports, such as snowboarding off mountains, experience this flow state frequently. It’s a heighten, absorbed state of mind and the research states that anyone, absorbed enough will experience flow states. For example all the great Mathematicians, Artists, even elite craftsmen have historically experienced this while engaged in their work. Parallels with Sehaj, Anand States Sikhs experience?

Carol Dweck's work on 'mindset' states that people have two types of mindset, either a limited, defeatist ‘I can’t do this’ mindset, or progressive mindset which views setbacks as challenges to be overcome. If you lack this mindset, it is unlikely you will ever achieve mastery in life and/or experience flow states. Parallels with Sikh Chardi Kala Concept?

Other Authors/Researchers work on 'Mastery' have combined the ideas of expertise, flow, mindset to formulate a compelling theory of mastery. That the highest human activity is the pursuit of Mastery in any given domain or field. That the pursuit of Mastery, gives true transcendent happiness, above and beyond gross material possessions. Parallels with sikh concept of rejecting maya, and gross desires for higher Gurmukh ideal?

Btw you say you’re are a pharmacist, I interested to know how you view the body of work that stands behind your profession, the empirical edifice that has been built up over centuries, the application of the scientific method to alleviate human suffering, the institutes of research, the commercial enterprises, funding by secular goverments that support your profession.

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Guest anongram101

I stumbled on this forum by chance and when I read your comments many thoughts raced through my head so I have jotted them down as fast as I could. Please accept this as my opinion of my understanding of being a Sikh.

You are not the first one to want to do do this and won't be the last one. There are uncountable number of staunch amritdhari sikhs who have become disillusioned with their situation in life due to mutlifactorial issues. When we come into this life some of us are born into sikh families but we are not really Sikh until we understand it and choose it as our path to follow - until then we are blind followers or brainwashed. Sooner or later we all come to a stage in life when we want answers, hopefully not too late in life but better late than never. I have met a lot of Sikhs, from gianis to raagis to kathakars and so called "sants" , and as one says you never truly know someone unless you have lived with them - I can truly say I only know one who follows the path of righteousness and lives a life of a Sikh as the Gurus say. I am fortunate to have the experience of this unique simple Sikh, as I believe there can only be a handful like him that have reached a spiritual stage through true bandagi.

Sikh Dharm (Dharm= path of righteousness) is a way of life through a philosophy laid down by Parmatma through the Guru - "khasam ki bani". One human life time was not enough so as you know it took several years through a succession of Gurus. You first have to have faith and belief in the teaching of the Gurus and then you have to try to understand what this is through your own "khoj" or research. There are too many Sikhs preaching rather than practicing what they preach and too many of us find it easier to listen to these people as it is easier because you think they have done all the necessary research - just like you take your teachers word for granted because they have done a degree in their subject. Unfortunately, there is no degree on Sikh Dharm and you are going to have to do your own PhD!

Do not worry that you are having these thoughts. It is good to question everything that bothers you - and this is usually through ignorance or misunderstanding, though in your case seems like the second one is applicable. Remember Guru Nanak's sons did not follow him - if a Guru cannot change his son's thinking and accepts God's will you should not feel bad for questioning your way of life. The sangat we keep has an undeniable influence on us and the only way to deflect this is through the teachings of our Gurus - of nam japna, kirt karna and Seva; where you reach a stage of spiritual awareness that has like a forcefield around you. A lot of people do Seva , simran and kirt but still do not find contentment and inner peace - this is because their expectation comes through 3rd party information. When you do your own "Khoj and bandagi" you start to feel a change in you and then each time you do your nitnem or simran you want more of it - you find a "taste" you have not had before. Then it starts to have a positive effect on everything you do at home and work, in social interactions and daily life. You will realise that everything that happens in your life, both good and bad, is a result of His will determined through your karm.

Our Bani reminds us repeatedly , know who you are and where you have come from and where you are going. You are "atma" (soul) on a journey to "Parmatma" (supreme soul) . This journey through Sikh Dharm is a journey of "Prem" (love) , truth and helping the needy, and you have a choice to follow whatever path you wish.

Regarding keeping uncut hair: having amrit and keeping the 5 Ks do not make you a sikh - you have to read, research, understand and then practice the teachings of the Gurus- as I said already you have to have faith in your teacher the Guru, and therefore all their teachings. So in Sikh Dharm you cannot separate teachings from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji - they were the 1st to the 10th Nanaks so all one. It is true that at that time Sikhs would not all have uncut. My belief is that this was a gradual process over the time of the Gurus culminating in the final form that Parmatma had for us. As Rome was not built in a day, the Gurus laid the foundations over time so that Sikhs would have a strong base to flourish from. So just as a house is unstable without foundations, so it is not complete without a roof- therefore the Gurus teachings start with the 1st Nanak and complete with the 10th Nanak and a Sikh is complete with his/her uncut hair. I am sure you have read the basics of the Dasam Granth - if not please do.

In my opinion you are fortunate to have exposure to Sikh Dharm and you should try to understand Sikh philosophy of life. If you still wish to reject this path then as you say "so be it" - but you will have tried. Just remember whatever you do in this life will go with you to the next - unless, of course, you attain mukti in this one - and Sikh Dharm teaches us that this is possible. You can look at any other religion but you will still need to research into it before you reach wherever it is you want. If you do nothing and carry on as you are you will remain in doubt and discontent.

Whatever decision you make I hope you are happy with it.

Wishing you well,

From Another Sikh viewpoint.

I more than 100% accept the teaching of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and Gurbani is my Guru. Truth be told, I don't want to be a perfect Sikh, but I can't face being a Patit, so I am forced to continue being an Amritdari. I don't blame the Sikh Religion for this, but I do resent being forced to remain amritdari. I should have the right to leave.

I have probably read many 100’s if not going onto 1000 books, by different western researchers & authors. And I assure you that I do not simply accept what some Phd has said. I reject probably 70%-80% of what I read. Thankfully I have been blessed with Critical faculties of the mind, to allow me to weigh up and evaluate, before accepting fact, theory or even philosophy. Unlike traditionally in India, and in Asia…in the West the student (and we are all students, no matter our age, i.e. we are all Sikhs, if we are committed to truth and learning) is encouraged, expected to 1) Gather Data 2) Analyse 3) Evaluate 4) Make reasoned judgement. We do not just accept something, just because someone has a Phd. You implore me to do my khoj, research, but you all have the expectation, that there is only one conclusion: A Sikh must take amrit, and a Sikh cannot leave amrit.

Btw, please feel free to summarise your understanding of the Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Sikhi has a very large emphasis on Gurprasad - when the Almighty will allow it, the Sikh will progress. Practice of repetition and rituals in a quantity to achieve a finite goal is not Sikhi, it is Karam Kand. There is no guarantee that if one does XXX number of paaths/Naam Simran malaas, that they will be liberated. Sure, Brahm-Gyani Mahapurakhs (who are one with the Almighty) may have insight and prescribe a certain number of whatever to achieve something, but the human effort and intellect will not be able to deduce the number. Such an attempt in Gurbani is called Mun-Hatt - to attempt to force your will to do something.

From your description, mindset seems quite ego-centric. A Sikh has only has Ardaas and the support/guidance of Gurbani. Nothing is guaranteed and in the hands of the Almighty. There is indeed a concept of Karams and Hukam, but those are alterable to some extent by your own intentions, actions in the current life and Gurprasad, which can embellish or minimize what is to come.

Interesting vichar from a Gursikh, which Gurbani says as, "Aakhan Aukhaa Saachaa Naao" - Naam meditation is very difficult. The Gursikh spoke of how Pooran Gursikhs would advise interested souls to contemplate Gurbani first, and as they progressed, then spoke of Naam Kamai through Gurmantar Jaap/Simran. Again, Gurprasad it at play - one could have Kirpa done by the Almighty and achieve the highest of states by repeating Naam 10 times, or could spend ten lifetimes reciting Naam and still progress little. Such is God's way and hence why Gurbani says that we will cry and wail for the Almighty to save us and one day the Almighty will one day hear our calls and bless us. This is an appeal to the Almighty for that Gurprasad, which is an element lacking in the Mun-Hatt approach of many Western philosophers. It is not a matter of repeating Naam 10K times and achieving liberation. If you can recite Naam just once with full concentration, that would the highest of achievements - as it requires committment of mind, body and soul AND Gurprasad to be able to do so. It is not a mechanical repetition per se (Which has its own fruits and should not be abandoned, but the attempt to fully be attentive, focus on the objective or having love for the Almighty and a deep longing to unite with the Almighty is vital to progress. The mind must achieve a stillness and the Naam must prevail as the one thought).

There is a very large element of deep bairaag-love that must exist in the pursuer of Bhagti. Without love, it is not kamai, but again Mun-hatt. "Jin Prem Kio, Tin Hi Parbh Payo". Skill, repition, even mastery are not useful without love. The Almighty is the seer or all and the knower of all - this is not a skill being practiced, but rather a Divine Love, Pain of separation, Joy of Union based on a deep yearning for reconnection withe Source Truth from which we have been disconnected. This is not a mechanical act of repitition (Karam Kand which Guru Sahib has condemned as empty ritualism), but a practice born out of deep love. Without love, there is no progress, as the Almighty will dispence Mercy and progress to those who practice out of love.

My job as a pharmacist is a means to survive. The body is a machine and man's quest to understand things has led to a very limited knowledge of how the body works, what medicines will have what effect. the body is a complex machine created by the Almighty. I do not refute evolution and other scientific principles, but rather see it as another aspect of the Almighty's play - if we can make complicated games and simulations, can not the Almighty make the most grand simulation/game of all, complete with rules and creations? We enhance our understanding of the world through scientific study by observation, but have to understand that there are limits to our senses. We enhance our senses all the time (microscope, non visible light spectrum being made visible by new technology, new theories that replace old ones). Scientific pursuits are slow as they are dependent on man-made mental pursuits, but interesting enough, the quest for truth is the underlying principle for scientists. Religion centered people focus on the pursuit of the Source Truth, aka. the Almighty, which is the source of all truths. Their faith is their tool and unfettered devotion to be united with the Almighty their goal. As they pursue this goal, truths are revealed to them as they progress. The classic incident of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji having the Simritis/Shastras (can't remember which one) revealed to him while pursuing Bhagti is an example of such an occurrence. Once the Source is tapped, the truths that it originated are revealed and accessible. Perhaps the parallel can be a computer attempting to crunch data to derive conclusions about the world alone (Mun-hatt) vs. plugging into God-net and suddenly, the information is simply there - no processing needed. How to make that connection and become one with the God-net, if you will, is the pursuit of the Bhagats. However, the connection is what the Bhagats seek, not the knowledge. Knowledge is simply there, but it is that reconnection with the God-net, which was severed at birth, that is most important. (This is turning out to be quite weird way to explain things).

Western medicine in itself is interesting, as I do not perceive it to be any better than Ayeruvedic medicine. The scientific method of repeatable results is at odds with the Eastern (or at least Indian) tradition of experience and in some cases, revelation of medicines that work. My father, who suffered from psoriasis is proof of this. Western medicine still has no cure for it, and yet, he is cured of psoriasis because of Ayeruvedic medicines.

My understanding of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - I don't "understand" Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, what to speak of Dasam Patshah's Bani? Summary would be that the Almighty is beyond comprehension and limits. And we have Gurbani that states, "Vah Vah Bani Nirankar Hai, Tis Jaevad Avar Na Koe" - Gurbani is itself the Almighty. Gurbani is Infinite and there is no limit. I cannot summarize the Infinite with a Finite mind. The Almighty reveals to all through Gurbani what they need to be revealed and the revelations can evolve as time passes. What others (in particular Giani Sher Singh of Ambala) have said of Dasam Patshah's Bani is that Jaap Sahib of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji is equivalent to Japji Sahib of Sahib Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In such a manner, where the Kirtam Naam is described in Jaap Sahib, the remainder of Banis speak to the various aspects and tales related to that Kirtam Naam. There are other aspects to Dasam Patshah's Bani - educating Sikhs on Hindu granths and Avtaars, Bir Rassi Banian, realities of man-woman relationships and such that I am not in any sort of means an expert on. I leave it at that, as I have more faith in studied Gursikhs who have accomplished much more than I than my own perspectives.

None of the above means anything towards what I have accomplished - I am working towards the lofty goals of Gurmat and stand very much junior to my goals and expressed views. But what I have experienced so far is indeed enough to keep me going. Otherwise, I have "felt" such from doing Sangat of Gursikhs - they emanate Gurmat and though I am nowhere near where they are, they exude such and is perceived from their presence.

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Sikh Dharam is best, truly an middle way-sargun/nirgun absolute truth path has everything in it has multitude aspects of divine coming from one source-Ikongkar. It's truly amazing especially if you experience it and if its understood properly.


Gurbani (not just mere akhar, meaning, gurbani feeling, gyan, antriv arths) talks to seeker as soon seeker recites it, if seeker is receptive will feel it. In nutshell, gurbani helps remove mind egoic conditioning, loosen it in stages (bhagati-love, shabad , gyan). When our egoic mind conditioning is weakened or slowly remove by bhagti, seva, love, bibek, gyan then naam/absolute truth- hakum starts unfolding within.


However, as ms514 pointed out Gurparsad is main thing. Gurparsad is start and end game. Sikh cannot make full effort as no single effort can reach there on its own only sikh can do is loose its egoic mind conditioning by dis identify with mind, be in receptivity and surrender to Guru and instead of seeker trying to consume in shabad or gyan let guru- shabad gyan consume you fully until it dawns.


Another perspective is of gurmat gyan..Gurmat Wisdom also says, one needs to relax be vary of ego ego makes it dramatic/sob personal story its all game its illusion anyway because from absolute truth point of view- its god seeking god- god expereincing itself via creation, meditating on itself :)


Sargun nirgun nirankar sun samadhi aap apan kiya nanak ape fer jaap ||


I am in strong beleif anyone who cuts kesh or convert from sikhism is not because of religion or sikh theology or gurbani itself but because of bad subjective expereinces from people or groups etc.


Old traditional Gurmat process is pretty smooth transition, seamless as things are taught in stages- having kesh, five ks- take sanaskar amrit is premilinary step one after seeker takes that step then focus is entirely on understanding inner gurmat with bibek adapting gurmat than manmat not just conceptually but pratically in expereince, abiding in gurmat updesh, carry through gurmat journey with 5 ks, basic rehit-nitnem/amrit vela gets seamless or 2nd nature. The problem only arises when people get caught up in conceptual stuff (loose their sleep over it, debate to death) or wrap their head around intial stages in gurmat-outside rituals. We really need to real low down our rhetoric on some of the basic stuff as i also feel main message - absolute truth in gurmat gets lost in all rhetoric stuff.


At the end, we can talk about sikhi to the max but one thrist is not quenched by talk about semantics of water- h20, quench is removed by drinking it.

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Guest Anongram101

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Sikhi has a very large emphasis on Gurprasad - when the Almighty will allow it, the Sikh will progress. Practice of repetition and rituals in a quantity to achieve a finite goal is not Sikhi, it is Karam Kand. There is no guarantee that if one does XXX number of paaths/Naam Simran malaas, that they will be liberated. Sure, Brahm-Gyani Mahapurakhs (who are one with the Almighty) may have insight and prescribe a certain number of whatever to achieve something, but the human effort and intellect will not be able to deduce the number. Such an attempt in Gurbani is called Mun-Hatt - to attempt to force your will to do something.

From your description, mindset seems quite ego-centric. A Sikh has only has Ardaas and the support/guidance of Gurbani. Nothing is guaranteed and in the hands of the Almighty. There is indeed a concept of Karams and Hukam, but those are alterable to some extent by your own intentions, actions in the current life and Gurprasad, which can embellish or minimize what is to come.

Interesting vichar from a Gursikh, which Gurbani says as, "Aakhan Aukhaa Saachaa Naao" - Naam meditation is very difficult. The Gursikh spoke of how Pooran Gursikhs would advise interested souls to contemplate Gurbani first, and as they progressed, then spoke of Naam Kamai through Gurmantar Jaap/Simran. Again, Gurprasad it at play - one could have Kirpa done by the Almighty and achieve the highest of states by repeating Naam 10 times, or could spend ten lifetimes reciting Naam and still progress little. Such is God's way and hence why Gurbani says that we will cry and wail for the Almighty to save us and one day the Almighty will one day hear our calls and bless us. This is an appeal to the Almighty for that Gurprasad, which is an element lacking in the Mun-Hatt approach of many Western philosophers. It is not a matter of repeating Naam 10K times and achieving liberation. If you can recite Naam just once with full concentration, that would the highest of achievements - as it requires committment of mind, body and soul AND Gurprasad to be able to do so. It is not a mechanical repetition per se (Which has its own fruits and should not be abandoned, but the attempt to fully be attentive, focus on the objective or having love for the Almighty and a deep longing to unite with the Almighty is vital to progress. The mind must achieve a stillness and the Naam must prevail as the one thought).

There is a very large element of deep bairaag-love that must exist in the pursuer of Bhagti. Without love, it is not kamai, but again Mun-hatt. "Jin Prem Kio, Tin Hi Parbh Payo". Skill, repition, even mastery are not useful without love. The Almighty is the seer or all and the knower of all - this is not a skill being practiced, but rather a Divine Love, Pain of separation, Joy of Union based on a deep yearning for reconnection withe Source Truth from which we have been disconnected. This is not a mechanical act of repitition (Karam Kand which Guru Sahib has condemned as empty ritualism), but a practice born out of deep love. Without love, there is no progress, as the Almighty will dispence Mercy and progress to those who practice out of love.

My job as a pharmacist is a means to survive. The body is a machine and man's quest to understand things has led to a very limited knowledge of how the body works, what medicines will have what effect. the body is a complex machine created by the Almighty. I do not refute evolution and other scientific principles, but rather see it as another aspect of the Almighty's play - if we can make complicated games and simulations, can not the Almighty make the most grand simulation/game of all, complete with rules and creations? We enhance our understanding of the world through scientific study by observation, but have to understand that there are limits to our senses. We enhance our senses all the time (microscope, non visible light spectrum being made visible by new technology, new theories that replace old ones). Scientific pursuits are slow as they are dependent on man-made mental pursuits, but interesting enough, the quest for truth is the underlying principle for scientists. Religion centered people focus on the pursuit of the Source Truth, aka. the Almighty, which is the source of all truths. Their faith is their tool and unfettered devotion to be united with the Almighty their goal. As they pursue this goal, truths are revealed to them as they progress. The classic incident of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji having the Simritis/Shastras (can't remember which one) revealed to him while pursuing Bhagti is an example of such an occurrence. Once the Source is tapped, the truths that it originated are revealed and accessible. Perhaps the parallel can be a computer attempting to crunch data to derive conclusions about the world alone (Mun-hatt) vs. plugging into God-net and suddenly, the information is simply there - no processing needed. How to make that connection and become one with the God-net, if you will, is the pursuit of the Bhagats. However, the connection is what the Bhagats seek, not the knowledge. Knowledge is simply there, but it is that reconnection with the God-net, which was severed at birth, that is most important. (This is turning out to be quite weird way to explain things).

Western medicine in itself is interesting, as I do not perceive it to be any better than Ayeruvedic medicine. The scientific method of repeatable results is at odds with the Eastern (or at least Indian) tradition of experience and in some cases, revelation of medicines that work. My father, who suffered from psoriasis is proof of this. Western medicine still has no cure for it, and yet, he is cured of psoriasis because of Ayeruvedic medicines.

My understanding of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - I don't "understand" Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, what to speak of Dasam Patshah's Bani? Summary would be that the Almighty is beyond comprehension and limits. And we have Gurbani that states, "Vah Vah Bani Nirankar Hai, Tis Jaevad Avar Na Koe" - Gurbani is itself the Almighty. Gurbani is Infinite and there is no limit. I cannot summarize the Infinite with a Finite mind. The Almighty reveals to all through Gurbani what they need to be revealed and the revelations can evolve as time passes. What others (in particular Giani Sher Singh of Ambala) have said of Dasam Patshah's Bani is that Jaap Sahib of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji is equivalent to Japji Sahib of Sahib Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In such a manner, where the Kirtam Naam is described in Jaap Sahib, the remainder of Banis speak to the various aspects and tales related to that Kirtam Naam. There are other aspects to Dasam Patshah's Bani - educating Sikhs on Hindu granths and Avtaars, Bir Rassi Banian, realities of man-woman relationships and such that I am not in any sort of means an expert on. I leave it at that, as I have more faith in studied Gursikhs who have accomplished much more than I than my own perspectives.

None of the above means anything towards what I have accomplished - I am working towards the lofty goals of Gurmat and stand very much junior to my goals and expressed views. But what I have experienced so far is indeed enough to keep me going. Otherwise, I have "felt" such from doing Sangat of Gursikhs - they emanate Gurmat and though I am nowhere near where they are, they exude such and is perceived from their presence.

I have been humbled - thank you. I have a feeling you are younger than me, but much wiser - you have put my mind at rest. And I agree with what you have said regarding number of paath's. I have experienced Anand, only when doing significant amounts of paath & simran. I have never achieved significant hit of Anand, poise with a Single Gur Mantra - no matter how much I focused, which is one thing I am disappointed about. I took Amrit 10 years ago, because I felt like a failure, and by standards of upper class indian society I was something of a loser. After taking Amrit, I have progressed relatively remarkably... to the extent that people do get jealous... After taking Amrit, I have gotten everything I wanted, all the success, and am poised to achieve more... I suppose the Devil (proverbially speaking) inside me says "You took Amrit, because you were a loser, 10 years later, your effectlvely a winner, and you are poised to achieve more - would it not be brilliant if you could enjoy your success with a nice clean shave, decent haircut, expensive clothes, socially mingling with your upper class colleagues - why live as an outcaste."

One thing that has not helped is, I have not really met strong gursikhs. I have met young Gursikhs really into Sikhi, forgive me for saying, seemed a little weak in the real world. I have met younger Gursikhs, who I tried to mentor career wise, who came across as both arrogant and weak - they could not hack their really hard uni courses, or they could not hack holding down a very demanding professional job. Whereas I have known mona sikh, very religion ignorant, who were extradinarily tough world wise, they would push through fatigue, stress, setbacks, failures to achieve their dreams - heads of divisons in major companies, or atleast senior managers in blue chip companies. I would have expected young gursikhs to have this kind of drive, but many, many did not. So the devil inside me said "See its only weak ones, like you were, who take amrit, all the tough ones don't need to, and you're one of the tough ones now. As they say in the West, religion is a crutch for the weak, disempowered. The new generation of Gursikhs, definitely do not have an iota of spirit/drive of old sikhs of Khalsa Raj era, etc..."

But I was wrong...really was wrong...Ego had blinded me...thanks for all your time.

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Jio, where are you if you don't mind me asking (not address or anything specific, generally - state or maybe even city and country). If you are in an area where there is Sikhi, there may just be some Sikhs that can provide good Sangat. Even if you cannot find good Sangat locally, it may be worth traveling to Sikhi programs to get that Sangat and at least get a recharge that will keep propelling you towards Sikhi.

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