Sikh Clash With Police In London

[KhoonKaBadlaKhoon]

.

Actually there is a good point there and it reminds me of something I was going to write a few days ago when Hindu shopkeepers in Jalandhar city centre strarted fighting with the Sikh protestors. That report in Indian newspapers mentioned how one particularly powerfull shopkeeper there, a Dinesh Khanna, started making

But this is where we sometimes show ourselves to be not very well organised and bit of a shambles

^That uneducated argument displays so well how little understanding you actually have.

The reason we Sikhs have so forcefully been demonstrrating in western countries over the last 31 years is to remind the world that our kith and kin in Punjab are not allowed to do so. For example,

Sikhs often lack the foresight to go one step further, after we cool down, we just forget and resume.

Bro I know very well the ways of Punjab, what has happened then and whats happening now. My point is raj isnt given, its taken. We can sit in UK US Canada all we want doing protests, filling out petitions, raising awareness, and meeting politicians who simply don't care enough. But we have to walk the walk too, and be willing to go to Punjab one day to get our raj.

Plus, what has 31 years of protesting, raising awareness and all that in the Western world accomplished? Nothing, the only sort of justice Sikhs got was by the way AK 47's.

[MisterrSingh]

Plus, what has 31 years of protesting, raising awareness and all that in the Western world accomplished? Nothing, the only sort of justice Sikhs got was by the way AK 47's.

That won't work anymore, especially when the other side have weaponry that'll make our AK's resemble muskets compared to their arms. I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of being the valiant loser. Don't you want to win?

No, we need to look at certain events in Africa in the 70's and 80's, when foreigners sponsored by heavy duty financiers and military sources would undertake coups to destabilise and overthrow regimes and then install themselves as the law of that particular region.

I'm sorry, but western Sikh youth raised on a diet of Call of Duty and riddled with jathebandi politics have neither the stomach or the knowledge to undertake such a fight. Many talk the talk but stumble when it comes to the act of walking. Neither will a rag-tag bunch of native Punjabi guerilla forces with NO training ever be able to put the hurt in where it'll count. Instead, they will be overrun by the vastly better organised and trained Indians. Faith and bharosa has its place, but it needs to be backed up by muscle and skill. One without the other, as Sikhs who believe in both the spirituality and temporality of existence, simply cannot bear any fruit.

Protest is, for the time being, the best option. We need to stop imagining life is a movie where the good guys always win. Open any page of a history book and you'll see examples of the "baddies" not only winning but destroying the apparent good guys and wiping them from existence. That's just a fact of life. It's not fair but it happens.

The older I get the more I'm beginning to suspect the perfect opportunity we had of gaining our homeland was during the uprising of the 80's. That was our moment. But poor planning scuppered it. Instead, we were cornered and neutralised. We needed to act when India was still considered to be somewhat of a third world country. Now it has aspirations of being a world player and such countries do not break apart without huge civil unrest.

[KhoonKaBadlaKhoon]

That won't work anymore, especially when the other side have weaponry that'll make our AK's resemble muskets compared to their arms. I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of being the valiant loser. Don't you want to win?

No, we need to look at certain events in Africa in the 70's and 80's, when foreigners sponsored by heavy duty financiers and military sources would undertake coups to destabilise and overthrow regimes and then install themselves as the law of that particular region.

I'm sorry, but western Sikh youth raised on a diet of Call of Duty and riddled with jathebandi politics have neither the stomach or the knowledge to undertake such a fight. Many talk the talk but stumble when it comes to the act of walking. Neither will a rag-tag bunch of native Punjabi guerilla forces with NO training ever be able to put the hurt in where it'll count. Instead, they will be overrun by the vastly better organised and trained Indians. Faith and bharosa has its place, but it needs to be backed up by muscle and skill. One without the other, as Sikhs who believe in both the spirituality and temporality of existence, simply cannot bear any fruit.

Protest is, for the time being, the best option. We need to stop imagining life is a movie where the good guys always win. Open any page of a history book and you'll see examples of the "baddies" not only winning but destroying the apparent good guys and wiping them from existence. That's just a fact of life. It's not fair but it happens.

The older I get the more I'm beginning to suspect the perfect opportunity we had of gaining our homeland was during the uprising of the 80's. That was our moment. But poor planning scuppered it. Instead, we were cornered and neutralised. We needed to act when India was still considered to be somewhat of a third world country. Now it has aspirations of being a world player and such countries do not break apart without huge civil unrest.

I should have been more clear, I am NOT encouraging anyone to try and revive militancy again. I'm saying when we needed justice in the 80s and 90s, we didnt get it through protests. Didnt work then, wont work now, but now instead of militancy, we need a political takeover of both SGPC and state government. I dont mean takeover via Arab Spring/African foreign regieme change methods, we can all see how well that ends, not too mention no foreigners have interest to help fund a coup in Punjab. I dont know why people mention those events as if its something we should try to imitate.

There are many youth still today willing to fight, usually not the outspoken ones, but there are some. But of course with zero leadership and training, its useless.

I just dont understand how these protests are considered useful? As far as I can recall protests have never gotten Sikhs any significant results. Especially ones in the Western world, at least the recent Punjab protests achieved some backlash against Badals, but theyre starting to become a nuisance to many Sikhs. Now is the time to call Sarbat Khalsa and to try and regain control over SGPC. Destroy all credebility of SGPC leadership and force your way into the picture. I believe this is the course of action right now. Act now while we have some momentum. The state elections are still in 2017, by then we will have likely forgotten all this, so we need to focus on SGPC as its our best shot at some success. Also the farmers are angry with the govt right now, but give it some months, Badal will find a way to please them in time for elections and probably win again.

Youre 100% right, that was our chance and we lost. They were simply too conniving and resourceful for us. But at least we can say it wasnt their might that defeated us.

[MisterrSingh]

Just a general observation. Collective Sikh action is the key IMO. I mean, everyone singing from the same shabad sheet. Social agitation without spilling into self-destructive behaviour. But that requires organisation, patience, and vision. We have the heart and the never-say-die attitude, but those qualities I mentioned above are lacking in people back home, and without those there'll never be any genuinely serious or impactful change.

Talk the language of conciliation and inclusiveness to win over wary Sikhs and even non-Sikhs cowed into submissiveness and fear by the propaganda of the other side. Adopting a "us against the world" approach won't cut it in this day and age due to our relatively small numbers.

[lsingh]

There are some more effective non violent actions 5hat can be taken. If the Punjabi Hindus in the Cities oppose Sikhs then boycott their shops, go to Sikh ones. The pounds and dollars not being spent with them will convince them that they should get on with the Sikhs. An action that people abroad can take when they visit Punjab.

[MisterrSingh]

There are some more effective non violent actions 5hat can be taken. If the Punjabi Hindus in the Cities oppose Sikhs then boycott their shops, go to Sikh ones. The pounds and dollars not being spent with them will convince them that they should get on with the Sikhs. An action that people abroad can take when they visit Punjab.

Exactly.

[jkvlondon]

That won't work anymore, especially when the other side have weaponry that'll make our AK's resemble muskets compared to their arms. I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of being the valiant loser. Don't you want to win?

No, we need to look at certain events in Africa in the 70's and 80's, when foreigners sponsored by heavy duty financiers and military sources would undertake coups to destabilise and overthrow regimes and then install themselves as the law of that particular region.

I'm sorry, but western Sikh youth raised on a diet of Call of Duty and riddled with jathebandi politics have neither the stomach or the knowledge to undertake such a fight. Many talk the talk but stumble when it comes to the act of walking. Neither will a rag-tag bunch of native Punjabi guerilla forces with NO training ever be able to put the hurt in where it'll count. Instead, they will be overrun by the vastly better organised and trained Indians. Faith and bharosa has its place, but it needs to be backed up by muscle and skill. One without the other, as Sikhs who believe in both the spirituality and temporality of existence, simply cannot bear any fruit.

Protest is, for the time being, the best option. We need to stop imagining life is a movie where the good guys always win. Open any page of a history book and you'll see examples of the "baddies" not only winning but destroying the apparent good guys and wiping them from existence. That's just a fact of life. It's not fair but it happens.

The older I get the more I'm beginning to suspect the perfect opportunity we had of gaining our homeland was during the uprising of the 80's. That was our moment. But poor planning scuppered it. Instead, we were cornered and neutralised. We needed to act when India was still considered to be somewhat of a third world country. Now it has aspirations of being a world player and such countries do not break apart without huge civil unrest.

what about the 45% of the Indian army that are Sikhs?Are they not trained ?

[MisterrSingh]

what about the 45% of the Indian army that are Sikhs?Are they not trained ?

And what of the same Sikh personnel in 1947? In the 80's? What happened then? Where were they?

They were shipped out or kept at arm's length so as not to assist their brethren. If we believe those Sikhs in the Indian army will help us when things go bad, we are in dream land.

These people have pensions and families to worry about. Do you really believe they'll risk a lifetime's worth of service for an insurgency that won't bear any fruits and that will result in them being labelled as "traitors"?

These questions and issues are self-explanatory. They don't even merit too much consideration; that's how basic they are.

[Jeevan]

what about the 45% of the Indian army that are Sikhs?Are they not trained ?

According to a 1994 estimate, Punjabis (Sikhs and non-Sikhs) comprised 10 to 15 percent of all ranks in the Indian Army, although the state contained less than 3% of the country's population. The Indian government does not release religious or ethnic origins of the military personnel, but a 1991 report by Tim McGirk estimated that 20 percent of Indian Army officers were Sikhs.

And what of the same Sikh personnel in 1947? In the 80's? What happened then? Where were they?

They were shipped out or kept at arm's length so as not to assist their brethren. If we believe those Sikhs in the Indian army will help us when things go bad, we are in dream land.

These people have pensions and families to worry about. Do you really believe they'll risk a lifetime's worth of service for an insurgency that won't bear any fruits and that will result in them being labelled as "traitors"?

These questions and issues are self-explanatory. They don't even merit too much consideration; that's how basic they are.

Sikh soldiers did mutiny in 1984 but when you have the likes of Badal, Longowal, Tohra, Amarinder, KPS Gill, General Brar, SPGC, Akal Takht etc.etc. controlling Punjab & Sikhism as their own personal domain (Sikhism doesn't even get a look in) what point does a rebellion serve? Who are the real traitors of Sikhism?

Issue Date June 30, 1984

It began at Sriganganagar, a border town in Rajasthan where over 400 jawans of 9 Sikh Light Infantry rebelled. This was followed by the mutiny at Ramgarh near Ranchi in Bihar where, charged by rumours that women were being raped by the army in Punjab, 1,438 recruits revolted, killing Brigadier R.C. Puri, the commandant, and escaped with weapons. They surrendered after bloody gun battles in five places. Similar desertions took place in Pune, Thane, Jammu, Siliguri, Silchar and Alwar.

- Shekhar Gupt

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/operation-bluestar-a-tragedy-that-outraged-sikhs-but-underlined-importance-of-decisiveness/1/245520.html

Once Sikhism overhauls itself to tackle sycophants that even gave Siropa to Amitabh Bachchan with the allegations against him. Then there is casteism don't forget at one time the lower castes were barred from entering Harmandir Sahib, the evilness of female foeticide, singers like Gurdas Maan,Honey Singh paying more respect to other religions, lyrics compromising

of an adult theme based around girls & alcohol & the superiority of one caste over another, a lack of education, lack of diverse jobs in Punjab. Go to any Sikh house their DVD collection will be larger than their book collection?

Having said the above I am heartened with the likes of Basics of Sikhi, SAS, Khalsa Aid etc. I will end with a line from the Ardas if we just follow the fundamental of these lines we can revamp Sikhism into a world religion not one just concentrated in Punjab?

"Those who dwelled on God's Name, shared their honest earnings with others,

wielded sword in battlefield, distributed food in companionship"....,

[MisterrSingh]

Sikh soldiers did mutiny in 1984 but when you have the likes of Badal, Longowal, Tohra, Amarinder, KPS Gill, General Brar, SPGC, Akal Takht etc.etc. controlling Punjab & Sikhism as their own personal domain (Sikhism doesn't even get a look in) what point does a rebellion serve? Who are the real traitors of Sikhism?

I'd never call them traitors, hence the quote marks. But you know the Indian media will go overboard in their labelling of such personnel.

Regarding your point, who votes in these personalities time and time again? If the Punjabi electorate have the collective memory of a goldfish, then what to do? We can't vote out Badal and his chums.