Jagraj Singh On Beeb This Sunday @ 10am

[MisterrSingh 4,782]

Yes, but what can half a million people do? Please tell me in clear language how are the Sikhs going to be used as pawns?

Ill feelings towards Muslims? They were already like that before any British set foot in India. The various posters in the Gurdwara does a far better job then any white man could ever do.

I think many here are suffering from illusions (delusions is better...ha ha) of grandeur.

i've already explained it to you. It's not about "doing," it's merely enough to create or stoke already existing divisions. If, hypothetically speaking, physical unrest does develop in the distant future, it will be enough to know that Sikhs will be against Muslims. Numbers and outcome aside, that's enough. Stop taking everything so literally.

[Quantavius 141]

i've already explained it to you. It's not about "doing," it's merely enough to create or stoke already existing divisions. If, hypothetically speaking, physical unrest does develop in the distant future, it will be enough to know that Sikhs will be against Muslims. Numbers and outcome aside, that's enough. Stop taking everything so literally.

And I have already explained it to you that division already exists. Our Gurdwaras do a far better job then any white man could ever do. Therefore this 'whitey' trying to get Sikhs riled up against Muslims is pure nonsense.

Stop imagining stuff. Whites are not drinking goblets of wine, laughing and then planning our demise. We don't even register on their radar.

[dallysingh101 2,173]

I'm warning you. If this continues, I'm going to be reporting you to the moderator. You're already on a short lease.

I'm real scared. What's next? You're gonna tell your mommy?

When the Sikh raj was crumbling under Hindu /bhekhi sikhs influence that is the first thing they tried to reverse , however the british recognised a good thing and made laws to restrict the hindu moneylenders again.

I think that's gibberish. I believe they did that (and prevented nonjuts from owning land) just because they knew juts are real easy to manipulate and use when you hand them a few things and throw them a few compliments. The irony is that whites from abroad were simply redistributing Panjabi wealth/resources (that they confiscated from true freedom loving Sikhs who fought against their hegemony),and making a big profit too. Not exactly putting their hands in their own pockets or noble. It was just an effective strategy to control people and make money. If contemporary jut habits are anything to go by, those juts of the past probably spunked away their money on ostentatious stuff trying to show off to everyone (or drinking), and eventually ended up going to the hindu money lenders to keep up the facade, then the money lender probably saw that the jut was an unparh pendu, who was innumerate too, and started to exploit the situation.

In any case, Anglos manipulated the scene to have the (then) profitable agricultural sector under wraps as well as accessing a steady stream of non-questioning 'storm troopers' to help them push their colonialism on other communities abroad.

[MisterrSingh 4,782]

And I have already explained it to you that division already exists. Our Gurdwaras do a far better job then any white man could ever do. Therefore this 'whitey' trying to get Sikhs riled up against Muslims is pure nonsense.

Stop imagining stuff. Whites are not drinking goblets of wine, laughing and then planning our demise. We don't even register on their radar.

Change the record, Q. I wasn't even alluding to "whitey" or any of the other nonsense you've got a chip on your shoulder about. The other posters you were interacting with may have mentioned something along those lines, I don't know, I hadn't read that far back. I was replying to your "numbers" argument; nothing more.

You're either being deliberately obtuse (a troll) or you're in need of a history, psychology, and sociology lesson. Since I don't have time for any of that, I'm sure you'll understand if I cease this nonsensical back-and-forth. Having a debate with someone in a mature manner with some give and take is preferable to the game-playing you seem to revel in on a regular basis. You can't stand Sikhs and brown people so much, then there's a straight-forward solution to your problem: leave this forum.

Therefore this 'whitey' trying to get Sikhs riled up against Muslims is pure nonsense.

As an aside, this might dispel some misconceptions you possess on the above subject. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/16/zac-goldsmith-leaflet-british-indians-heirlooms

The Guardian's a regressive-leftist rag, but even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

[dallysingh101 2,173]

And I have already explained it to you that division already exists. Our Gurdwaras do a far better job then any white man could ever do. Therefore this 'whitey' trying to get Sikhs riled up against Muslims is pure nonsense.

Stop imagining stuff. Whites are not drinking goblets of wine, laughing and then planning our demise. We don't even register on their radar.

We register on their radars quite high here. As useful, easy to manipulate idiots. I remember one SP brother telling me how the police 'accidently' left the files (with the home addresses) of some sullay that were kicking off with Sikhs unattended for a while during an interview. "I'm just going to the toilet, I'm going to leave these here, don't look at them." <wink wink>

You have to realise, history has given the impression (to goray) that Sikhs are easily malleable and readily manipulable. They especially love trying to play the Sikh vs Muslims angle in media. That's part of the reason they downplayed all the grooming that went on for decades and blamed Sikhs for being unreasonable. That's why they always try and point the finger at Sikhs for initiating violence at partition.

The tactic they use is called 'lightning rod' - the idea is to cause a deflection of Muslim anger onto Sikhs to take the heat off them. Luckily, these days, even fundamentalist sullay aren't falling for that one, or probably more accurately, they are seeing Sikhs as small fry right now and concentrating on the people that have been attacking their lands and causing mass death and destruction as a consequence (i.e. western Europeans).

[chatanga 1,058]

Whites never looted anything from colonies. This is a lie. There was nothing to loot as the east was largely agrarian societies. If anything they brought industry to the east.

Mr Q, why was the East India Company set up in the first place?

I will tell you.

To circumvent the high taxes imposed by the Dutch on spices, jute perfumes and tea, the EIC went to India, specifically Bengal where they traded as equals, but as soon as they took over, they took these commodities and taxed the local people to pay the Company's salaries. So they were killing two birds with one stone. They had the natives paying for Company, whilst the Company had the natives producing spices, jute, perfumes and tea for consumption back in England at a great profit.

Bengal is also a high producer of jute. I don't know what this is, but it was one of the main contentions between Pakistan and East Pakistan(Bangladesh) as the Pakistanis were taking all the profit for this coimmodity and using it for themselves in Pakistan, and giving very little to the Bengalis.

In African colonies the lure was oil but moreso diamonds.

[jkvlondon 5,663]

I'm real scared. What's next? Your gonna tell your mommy?

I think that's gibberish. I believe they did that (and prevented nonjuts from owning land) just because they knew juts are real easy to manipulate and use when you hand them a few things and throw them a few compliments. The irony is that whites from abroad were simply redistributing Panjabi wealth/resources (that they confiscated from true freedom loving Sikhs who fought against their hegemony),and making a big profit too. Not exactly putting their hands in their own pockets or noble. It was just an effective strategy to control people and make money. If contemporary jut habits are anything to go by, those juts of the past probably spunked away their money on ostentatious stuff trying to show off to everyone (or drinking), and eventually ended up going to the hindu money lenders to keep up the facade, then the money lender probably saw that the jut was an unparh pendu, who was innumerate too, and started to exploit the situation.

In any case, Anglos manipulated the scene to have the (then) profitable agricultural sector under wraps as well as accessing a steady stream of non-questioning 'storm troopers' to help them push their colonialism on other communities abroad.

by codifying they helped maintain a status quo which was favourable to the people as has been expressed even begrudingly by pakistanis not just jats were tilling the land . Please remember the angrez came expecting your idea of illiteracy but Maharaja Ranjit SIngh's policy of sending out educational materials for free meant the villagers were literate and numerate in fact 85% literacy is reported more than in england at that time. Having things run smoothly on from the way they were set up was less of a headache . DOn't get me wrong I am not praising them I am saying they didn't have an ounce of altrusim or sympathy for the natives or even original thought , just adopted the rules that were working for the Punjab.

As they started paying off their allies the twofaced bahmins and bhekhi sikhs they started getting influenced by their ideas and bahmins started pushing their agendas again

[chatanga 1,058]

I was hoping that Jagraj Singh wiould have said something about Nankana Sahib being in Pakistan as a lasting legacy of the British criminal rule in India.

I think that's gibberish. I believe they did that (and prevented nonjuts from owning land) just because they knew juts are real easy to manipulate and use when you hand them a few things and throw them a few compliments.

Are you talking about Jats?

[Quantavius 141]

Change the record, Q. I wasn't even alluding to "whitey" or any of the other nonsense you've got a chip on your shoulder about. The other posters you were interacting with may have mentioned something along those lines, I don't know, I hadn't read that far back. I was replying to your "numbers" argument; nothing more.

You're either being deliberately obtuse (a troll) or you're in need of a history, psychology, and sociology lesson. Since I don't have time for any of that, I'm sure you'll understand if I cease this nonsensical back-and-forth. Having a debate with someone in a mature manner with some give and take is preferable to the game-playing you seem to revel in on a regular basis. You can't stand Sikhs and brown people so much, then there's a straight-forward solution to your problem: leave this forum.

As an aside, this might dispel some misconceptions you possess on the above subject. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/16/zac-goldsmith-leaflet-british-indians-heirlooms

The Guardian's a regressive-leftist rag, but even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Take easy bro. Have a 'masala cha' on me. LOL!

I always expected you to be 'saner' one here. But I guess I'm wrong. If you ask me, some of the characters here need to be in a straight jacket. At the very least, in need for urgent therapy. LOL!!!

You and your gang are funny. You have more imagination then Walt Disney and Hollywood. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Balkaar 1,339]

Take easy bro. Have a 'masala cha' on me. LOL!

I always expected you to be 'saner' one here. But I guess I'm wrong. If you ask me, some of the characters here need to be in a straight jacket. At the very least, in need for urgent therapy. LOL!!!

You and your gang are funny. You have more imagination then Walt Disney and Hollywood. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quantavius if you had as many brain cells as you have 'LOL!'s you could honestly call yourself a half-wit.

[dallysingh101 2,173]

Please remember the angrez came expecting your idea of illiteracy but Maharaja Ranjit SIngh's policy of sending out educational materials for free meant the villagers were literate and numerate in fact 85% literacy is reported more than in england at that time.

You're probably right, the illiterate, innumerate thing is probably worse amongst pendus today then back then.

But like I said, all the goray policies were strategies to manipulate the peasantry to get mass support from them - it worked a treat. Ruralites completely let their guard down, to the point that goray felt emboldened enough to start blatantly manipulating the religion for their own advantage, adding vows of loyalty to their monarchy in their version of Amrit sanchaars for example. Cleverly (or 'insidiously' as used in the video) fusing Sikh military symbology and pride into the British agenda, and then using Sikhs abroad to help suppress other communities (like in China with the Opium Wars) and police other colonies from the natives. I think this is what Jagraj is alluding to in the video. They used a variety of tactics to placate and win over farmer society, including making it harder/impossible for nonjuts to own land (it was called the Punjab Land Alienation Act of 1900 I think?). Filling up their heads with illusions of grandeur (based on racialised 'martial theory' ideas along Aryan and Scythian lines) which still survives in today's caste fissures in the panth and how certain people think they are God's gift to the panth.

You can also see how many of those who are most vocal about how great being colonised was (or at least make the most 'excuses' for it) come from this group of people. I understand why now - their families really benefitted from it. It's probably like Chatanga said earlier, most Sikhs were probably more concerned about maintaining comfortable lifestyles than religion or independence or anything else at this stage.

This wasn't the case for all though, and we need the sidelined voices of those freedom loving, beautiful, sacrificing, free-spirited brothers and sisters to be mainstream now, more than ever, as opposed to the economic sepoys. Those Sarabhas, Ghadar party members and everyone one else who was written out of the mainstream Sikh narrative whilst Anglos dominated the discourse and promoted those who did their bidding.

[MisterrSingh 4,782]

Take easy bro. Have a 'masala cha' on me. LOL!

I always expected you to be 'saner' one here. But I guess I'm wrong. If you ask me, some of the characters here need to be in a straight jacket. At the very least, in need for urgent therapy. LOL!!!

You and your gang are funny. You have more imagination then Walt Disney and Hollywood. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!

[jkvlondon 5,663]

You're probably right, the illiterate, innumerate thing is probably worse amongst pendus today then back then.

But like I said, all the goray policies were strategies to manipulate the peasantry to get mass support from them - it worked a treat. Ruralites completely let their guard down, to the point that goray felt emboldened enough to start blatantly manipulating the religion for their own advantage, adding vows of loyalty to their monarchy in their version of Amrit sanchaars for example. Cleverly (or 'insidiously' as used in the video) fusing Sikh military symbology and pride into the British agenda, and then using Sikhs abroad to help suppress other communities (like in China with the Opium Wars) and police other colonies from the natives. I think this is what Jagraj is alluding to in the video. They used a variety of tactics to placate and win over farmer society, including making it harder/impossible for nonjuts to own land (it was called the Punjab Land Alienation Act of 1900 I think?). Filling up their heads with illusions of grandeur (based on racialised 'martial theory' ideas along Aryan and Scythian lines) which still survives in today's caste fissures in the panth and how certain people think they are God's gift to the panth.

You can also see how many of those who are most vocal about how great being colonised was (or at least make the most 'excuses' for it) come from this group of people. I understand why now - their families really benefitted from it. It's probably like Chatanga said earlier, most Sikhs were probably more concerned about maintaining comfortable lifestyles than religion or independence or anything else at this stage.

This wasn't the case for all though, and we need the sidelined voices of those freedom loving, beautiful, sacrificing, free-spirited brothers and sisters to be mainstream now, more than ever, as opposed to the economic sepoys. Those Sarabhas, Ghadar party members and everyone one else who was written out of the mainstream Sikh narrative whilst Anglos dominated the discourse and promoted those who did their bidding.

the land alienation act is what tied the hands of the bahmins they couldn't trap the farmers in debt again to treat them like indentured slaves as had been the case prior to Guru ji's time. I thought the whole aryan theory was cooked up by bahmins in North India to make them feel superior to the darker southerners ? It is true that old history books prior to Sikh Misl period dealt a bit more evenly but during angrez rule you can see brahminical slant being promoted and more caste related nonsense ...to be honest I never knew who was a whatever caste ... until I heard people here making it an issue . to me the heroes were the Singhs and singnian who laid on the rail-lines to give water and food to prisoners on the trains , People like The shaheeds who was shot at the Jaito Morcha, The beta who paid bheta to join the Nanaksar Morcha and gave shaheedi, Bhai Randhir SIngh ji who lost everything material(his lands were confiscated) and his freedom but inspired sikh jagat to be pukke in their piare for Guru ji on release he protested against discrimination against those sikhs considered 'low caste' at Harmandir Sahib...never once did I know or care about what their ancestors did or they did for a profession.

[chatanga 1,058]

the land alienation act is what tied the hands of the bahmins they couldn't trap the farmers in debt again to treat them like indentured slaves as had been the case prior to Guru ji's time.

No Ji. it was the urban Khatris/Banias who were taking the land from Sikhs and Muslim farmers. The Land Alienation Act sought to prevent this by only allowing Jats, Arains, and Rajputs to own land.

The english did this because the land that was being farmed and then taken over by the Khatris/Banias was lying idle and therefore not earning any income for the govt.

[Singh559 2,646]

I honestly feel a couple of you posting in this thread can, as a panel, debate with any opposing viewpoint -in this case against the revisionist British Sikh relations