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Guest Jagsaw_Singh

The Christian menace to Sikhi in Canada

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Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh
On 1/29/2020 at 5:27 PM, genie said:

Seems like theres alot of personal beef and agenda's in this thread and its going off on a tangent.

Lets get back to the discussion. If someone tries to provoke with personal attacks just ignore them and carry on with debate at hand.

Good advice brother.

I've already given some suggestions about what the first steps should be, on a panchayat / tehsildar level but moving on, from my own observations in Punjab, the 2 key issues are Education and Health. I've mentioned before that because 99% of the best schools in Punjab are Christian schools that does paint a misleading picture in people's minds that Christianity is associated with higher intelligence. We need to come up with solutions for that but....i'll be honest....I haven't had time to think about it deeply yet. The next point is Health. From my understanding, the Christians actively seek out people who are sick. They're constantly asking for names of ill people because not only are these people at their most vulnerable but these christians come with a solution: free treatment. Not just free treatment at a cheap dodgy institution like the Sikh seva groups do....but actual treatment at actual first class hospitals. The poor infrastructure of Education and Health in Punjab is the driving force behind what's happening. Sort them out and we solve our problem.

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Guest Cndn
On 1/29/2020 at 6:51 AM, MisterrSingh said:

 in that feminine and overly dramatic way you feel compelled to behave,

Side note: (MisterrSingh veer ji, if the use of the word feminine was a jab here, I hope you’ll reconsider using it in such a manner again, especially while engaged in such constructive dialogue. If it wasn’t a jab, please disregard.✌️)

Regarding the concerns about conversions, I’d like to point out some things. My paragraphs here might seem off topic at first, but they’re very much related to Sikhs converting to Christianity, so please bear with me.

I’ve lived in gta (Toronto area) all my life. I can tell you, for a fact, that ..the punjabi men here care more about talking hood, being jatt, and chasing panties in their (racing) bmws, rather than even beginning to know basic Sikh history. The same goes for the girls— just replace chasing panties with boxer briefs. Frankly, I don’t care about anyone’s sexual escapades..maybe even more power to them for that, I don’t know... But..... If someone were to ask my generation (& younger) what the core principles of Sikhi are, would we bet on them being able to answer? On the other hand, those who were born to Christian parents will know the core principles of their parents’ faith, even if they don’t follow suit. Same goes for those born to Muslim parents who might not practice Islam themselves— they’ll still know Islam’s core principles. With such basic knowledge out of the equation, it will likely lead to conversions.

Look no further than the Sikh camps at gurdwaras (at least, the ones I attended). I volunteered at one 2 years ago, and it was a complete joke. They want to teach the kids how to tie a dastaar & how to read Punjabi, and my personal favourite..the names of the gurus’ family members. The kids will forget in a week or less, so why not give them answers that they can give to non-Sikhs about Sikhi? Christianity grows because of the lovey dovey messages. When Christians teach kids, they don’t focus on the bloody battles or the meats that they cannot eat (in fact, most Christians eat meats they’re not supposed to eat). The Sikh camp organizers were so impressed when I had suggested that we teach the kids about the (proven) science that’s in gurbaani, and that we teach the kids the gurbaani which talks about loving nature, being kind & even self-betterment (none of which are boring to kids). I told the organizers that they shouldn’t be impressed, because this is common sense when it comes to wanting kids to learn about a faith. Like c’mon.. Which kid wants to remember dates & names of panj takhts? One organizer asked me multiple times to come back in the following year & I told him that I wouldn’t because the Sikh camp principal couldn’t stand the fact that I had better ideas, including a simple suggestion I made about at least letting the kids know why they’re saying Wahiguru before eating, or even teaching the kids why everyone sits on the floor in the Langar, or at least, why we have a langar in the first place. The other organizers told her they liked my ideas but she and her husband didn’t budge. #haumai. She wanted us to scold the kids if they were jumping around in the darbar, so what I did instead was teach them why the far bar must be a place of peace & quietness. I taught the kids why people do chaur sahib seva & they ALL wanted to do it, but first I taught them why they must wash their hands. They didn’t even know that!!! But once they did chaur sahib, they were all proud of themselves. The principal just wanted them to learn how to read Punjabi, memorize some shabads & dates, and of course learn how to stay quiet amongst other children. Imagine a person asked these kids why they have to cover their head in a gurudwara, or why they do chair sahib seva. If the kid didn’t know, all it would take to break his already-minimal faith would be someone convincing the kid that these are just unnecessary practices that Jesus doesn’t care about because Jesus is all about love instead of rituals. Anyway, with these types of Sikh camps, kids will just grow up thinking Sikhi is boring & very strict. Boring enough to leave it for the oh so loving Christianity, I wonder..? (That wasn’t a jab at Christianity.)

Enough of us have grown up in the west, so there’s no excuse for us to not come together and plan these type of lessons. I grew up with white people my entire life and I was shocked when I found out how many grown sikhs don’t know the basics of sikhi & how many mixed up Hindu practices with Sikh practices. I was even more surprised when I found out that many sikhs only care about being jatt. Being jatt has done nothing for me in Canada, but maybe I can’t relate because I didn’t grow up with Punjabis in areas like Brampton, but I doubt it would’ve done anything for me. How could it have? THREE guys I dated were so proud to be jatt Sikh, with the big khanda in their car & the huge kadaas on their wrists, but they didn’t even know the core principles of sikhi. I mean, c’mon man... So many people don’t even know that you can be a good Sikh even if you don’t keep your kes, nor read gurbaani. The baabay who only repeat “Amrit shak kay, Guru vaaley Sikh bano” are a big problem, and I understand if some of you might think I’m wrong to state such a thing. I was surprised to know how many people within our community think that putting money in the golak is an offering & that it’s a must. Yes, I mean THAT type of offering. (Saw it mentioned by a gora at Harimandar Sahib & sikhs just let him believe that we put money in golaks as a “sacrificial offerings to their god”.) That, and Christianity, are examples of what we’re losing sikhi to. Makes sense to me though.. When there’s a community of people who propose a lifestyle where there are no rules other than believing Jesus is lord, what more can the uneducated want?

So are they quick to convert because the missionaries tell them about this (false) 1 step rule? Just think about how often Christians say that Christianity isn’t even a religion! And just like that, people will see it as simplified, spiritual liberation— so easily achievable.

I wouldn’t be surprised if these Christians in Punjab have rehabs set up only for those who convert, just like how they set up clean water in African villages only after the village people convert. Unconditional love, my foot.

My parents visit Punjab yearly & I've gone twice in the last 3 years, but I’ve never seen posters with Punjabi pastors & their churches. I scoffed at those photos within this thread while my heart dropped a little.

(I read a LOT within this thread, but not everything, so I apologize if I have addressed things which were already discussed.)

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Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh
On 1/31/2020 at 2:16 PM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Good advice brother.

I've already given some suggestions about what the first steps should be, on a panchayat / tehsildar level but moving on, from my own observations in Punjab, the 2 key issues are Education and Health. I've mentioned before that because 99% of the best schools in Punjab are Christian schools that does paint a misleading picture in people's minds that Christianity is associated with higher intelligence. We need to come up with solutions for that but....i'll be honest....I haven't had time to think about it deeply yet. The next point is Health. From my understanding, the Christians actively seek out people who are sick. They're constantly asking for names of ill people because not only are these people at their most vulnerable but these christians come with a solution: free treatment. Not just free treatment at a cheap dodgy institution like the Sikh seva groups do....but actual treatment at actual first class hospitals. The poor infrastructure of Education and Health in Punjab is the driving force behind what's happening. Sort them out and we solve our problem.

ummm...OK....let me give you an example. There is a seva charity in the UK called The Sikh Union. It's a charity run exclusively by Sikhs from East Africa and is based in the West Midlands. Each year, they run eye camps and other health programmes in Punjab. Volunteers from the UK go to Punjab to perform this seva. What they do is they assemble Sikhs needing treatment at various Gurdwaras in Doaba and then take them to a private hospital in Jalandhar run by the rabid evangelical Seventh Day Adventist Christian church (Ruby Nelson Hospital)

Think about that for one moment: The Christians in Punjab don't  even have to go out hunting for recruits from the Sikh faith...…..Sikh seva groups actually collect them on their behalf and bring them to them. That's how stup1d we are and that's why we pretty much deserve everything we're getting.

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15 hours ago, Guest Cndn said:

.the punjabi men here care more about talking hood, being jatt, and chasing panties in their (racing) bmws, rather than even beginning to know basic Sikh history

That's not surprising, I remember warnings about this over twenty years ago at Sikh society meetings in uni. Let's be frank, certain people are trying to hijack the Sikh way of life to push their own caste identity out. They used to do it covertly a few decades ago (in the UK at least) and now they feel emboldened enough to do it openly. Most of them are confused themselves as their parents have raised them up this way. 

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Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh
3 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

All it will take is a few years of climate change and the whole agricultural economy of Panjab will be in tatters. 

No, you don't seem to know anything about farming in Punjab. Things are changing. We're going from a situation in which there were lots of farmers each holding small plots of land to a smaller number of farmers each holding vast acres of land. (one good point about emigration to the west.....it's freeing up land) . There are regional differences...for example farmers in Hoshiarpur are very slow to realise and admit that their land was never suitable for extensive farming, i.e. land there is of such a low quality it was only ever suitable for vegetables like potatos and carrots. Slowly, they will realise and that area (Hoshiarpur) will turn into more of an industrial area....the way nature intended. Mistakes are also currently being made among the large number of Sikh farmers from the traditionally backward areas of Malwa (Moga, Faridkot, Ferozpur etc) that have emigrated to Toronto in the last 20 years. They are now famous throughout Punjab for taking out vast loans in order to purchase an extremely large number of tractors and combines.....sometimes 3 or 4 in each family. They are still learning and will soon, after a generation, follow what is happening in the place that sets the trends; the Jalandhar district of doaba. In doaba, farming families (such as my own) are accumulating land and diversifying into things such as flowers, bananas etc, i.e. what there is international and domestic demand for. The problem is...with a motor here....and another motor there....and another a mile away...it is pretty much a waiting game. With other people owning small plots in between some of our motors we, and farmers like us, have to wait until that family wants to sell. Once they do, the western (Australian, Isreali etc) process of operating mega large farms generating large profits will begin. Years ago, on this very forum, I started a thread in which I explained what climate change and the things man was doing was doing to the environment (including land) was doing to Punjab. You weren't interested in it then so please don't pretend you have any interest in it or knowledge of farming in Punjab now DallySingh. None of it has anything to do with the rapid rise of the Christians in Punjab. I'll re-paste what I said a few messages ago in order to take this discussion back on track:

….let me give you an example. There is a seva charity in the UK called The Sikh Union. It's a charity run exclusively by Sikhs from East Africa and is based in the West Midlands. Each year, they run eye camps and other health programmes in Punjab. Volunteers from the UK go to Punjab to perform this seva. What they do is they assemble Sikhs needing treatment at various Gurdwaras in Doaba and then take them to a private hospital in Jalandhar run by the rabid evangelical Seventh Day Adventist Christian church (Ruby Nelson Hospital)

Think about that for one moment: The Christians in Punjab don't  even have to go out hunting for recruits from the Sikh faith...…..Sikh seva groups actually collect them on their behalf and bring them to them. That's how stup1d we are and that's why we pretty much deserve everything we're getting.

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15 hours ago, Guest Cndn said:

Side note: (MisterrSingh veer ji, if the use of the word feminine was a jab here, I hope you’ll reconsider using it in such a manner again, especially while engaged in such constructive dialogue. If it wasn’t a jab, please disregard.✌️)

Regarding the concerns about conversions, I’d like to point out some things. My paragraphs here might seem off topic at first, but they’re very much related to Sikhs converting to Christianity, so please bear with me.

I’ve lived in gta (Toronto area) all my life. I can tell you, for a fact, that ..the punjabi men here care more about talking hood, being jatt, and chasing panties in their (racing) bmws, rather than even beginning to know basic Sikh history. The same goes for the girls— just replace chasing panties with boxer briefs. Frankly, I don’t care about anyone’s sexual escapades..maybe even more power to them for that, I don’t know... But..... If someone were to ask my generation (& younger) what the core principles of Sikhi are, would we bet on them being able to answer? On the other hand, those who were born to Christian parents will know the core principles of their parents’ faith, even if they don’t follow suit. Same goes for those born to Muslim parents who might not practice Islam themselves— they’ll still know Islam’s core principles. With such basic knowledge out of the equation, it will likely lead to conversions.

Look no further than the Sikh camps at gurdwaras (at least, the ones I attended). I volunteered at one 2 years ago, and it was a complete joke. They want to teach the kids how to tie a dastaar & how to read Punjabi, and my personal favourite..the names of the gurus’ family members. The kids will forget in a week or less, so why not give them answers that they can give to non-Sikhs about Sikhi? Christianity grows because of the lovey dovey messages. When Christians teach kids, they don’t focus on the bloody battles or the meats that they cannot eat (in fact, most Christians eat meats they’re not supposed to eat). The Sikh camp organizers were so impressed when I had suggested that we teach the kids about the (proven) science that’s in gurbaani, and that we teach the kids the gurbaani which talks about loving nature, being kind & even self-betterment (none of which are boring to kids). I told the organizers that they shouldn’t be impressed, because this is common sense when it comes to wanting kids to learn about a faith. Like c’mon.. Which kid wants to remember dates & names of panj takhts? One organizer asked me multiple times to come back in the following year & I told him that I wouldn’t because the Sikh camp principal couldn’t stand the fact that I had better ideas, including a simple suggestion I made about at least letting the kids know why they’re saying Wahiguru before eating, or even teaching the kids why everyone sits on the floor in the Langar, or at least, why we have a langar in the first place. The other organizers told her they liked my ideas but she and her husband didn’t budge. #haumai. She wanted us to scold the kids if they were jumping around in the darbar, so what I did instead was teach them why the far bar must be a place of peace & quietness. I taught the kids why people do chaur sahib seva & they ALL wanted to do it, but first I taught them why they must wash their hands. They didn’t even know that!!! But once they did chaur sahib, they were all proud of themselves. The principal just wanted them to learn how to read Punjabi, memorize some shabads & dates, and of course learn how to stay quiet amongst other children. Imagine a person asked these kids why they have to cover their head in a gurudwara, or why they do chair sahib seva. If the kid didn’t know, all it would take to break his already-minimal faith would be someone convincing the kid that these are just unnecessary practices that Jesus doesn’t care about because Jesus is all about love instead of rituals. Anyway, with these types of Sikh camps, kids will just grow up thinking Sikhi is boring & very strict. Boring enough to leave it for the oh so loving Christianity, I wonder..? (That wasn’t a jab at Christianity.)

Enough of us have grown up in the west, so there’s no excuse for us to not come together and plan these type of lessons. I grew up with white people my entire life and I was shocked when I found out how many grown sikhs don’t know the basics of sikhi & how many mixed up Hindu practices with Sikh practices. I was even more surprised when I found out that many sikhs only care about being jatt. Being jatt has done nothing for me in Canada, but maybe I can’t relate because I didn’t grow up with Punjabis in areas like Brampton, but I doubt it would’ve done anything for me. How could it have? THREE guys I dated were so proud to be jatt Sikh, with the big khanda in their car & the huge kadaas on their wrists, but they didn’t even know the core principles of sikhi. I mean, c’mon man... So many people don’t even know that you can be a good Sikh even if you don’t keep your kes, nor read gurbaani. The baabay who only repeat “Amrit shak kay, Guru vaaley Sikh bano” are a big problem, and I understand if some of you might think I’m wrong to state such a thing. I was surprised to know how many people within our community think that putting money in the golak is an offering & that it’s a must. Yes, I mean THAT type of offering. (Saw it mentioned by a gora at Harimandar Sahib & sikhs just let him believe that we put money in golaks as a “sacrificial offerings to their god”.) That, and Christianity, are examples of what we’re losing sikhi to. Makes sense to me though.. When there’s a community of people who propose a lifestyle where there are no rules other than believing Jesus is lord, what more can the uneducated want?

So are they quick to convert because the missionaries tell them about this (false) 1 step rule? Just think about how often Christians say that Christianity isn’t even a religion! And just like that, people will see it as simplified, spiritual liberation— so easily achievable.

I wouldn’t be surprised if these Christians in Punjab have rehabs set up only for those who convert, just like how they set up clean water in African villages only after the village people convert. Unconditional love, my foot.

My parents visit Punjab yearly & I've gone twice in the last 3 years, but I’ve never seen posters with Punjabi pastors & their churches. I scoffed at those photos within this thread while my heart dropped a little.

(I read a LOT within this thread, but not everything, so I apologize if I have addressed things which were already discussed.)

Absolutely fascinating. These are the types of discussions that we need more of so we can truly understand the root of the issues facing us, and begin to formulate solutions that go beyond a matter of superficial issues. Thanks for your contribution. I've learnt a lot.

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17 hours ago, Guest Cndn said:

Side note: (MisterrSingh veer ji, if the use of the word feminine was a jab here, I hope you’ll reconsider using it in such a manner again, especially while engaged in such constructive dialogue. If it wasn’t a jab, please disregard.✌️)

Regarding the concerns about conversions, I’d like to point out some things. My paragraphs here might seem off topic at first, but they’re very much related to Sikhs converting to Christianity, so please bear with me.

I’ve lived in gta (Toronto area) all my life. I can tell you, for a fact, that ..the punjabi men here care more about talking hood, being jatt, and chasing panties in their (racing) bmws, rather than even beginning to know basic Sikh history. The same goes for the girls— just replace chasing panties with boxer briefs. Frankly, I don’t care about anyone’s sexual escapades..maybe even more power to them for that, I don’t know... But..... If someone were to ask my generation (& younger) what the core principles of Sikhi are, would we bet on them being able to answer? On the other hand, those who were born to Christian parents will know the core principles of their parents’ faith, even if they don’t follow suit. Same goes for those born to Muslim parents who might not practice Islam themselves— they’ll still know Islam’s core principles. With such basic knowledge out of the equation, it will likely lead to conversions.

Look no further than the Sikh camps at gurdwaras (at least, the ones I attended). I volunteered at one 2 years ago, and it was a complete joke. They want to teach the kids how to tie a dastaar & how to read Punjabi, and my personal favourite..the names of the gurus’ family members. The kids will forget in a week or less, so why not give them answers that they can give to non-Sikhs about Sikhi? Christianity grows because of the lovey dovey messages. When Christians teach kids, they don’t focus on the bloody battles or the meats that they cannot eat (in fact, most Christians eat meats they’re not supposed to eat). The Sikh camp organizers were so impressed when I had suggested that we teach the kids about the (proven) science that’s in gurbaani, and that we teach the kids the gurbaani which talks about loving nature, being kind & even self-betterment (none of which are boring to kids). I told the organizers that they shouldn’t be impressed, because this is common sense when it comes to wanting kids to learn about a faith. Like c’mon.. Which kid wants to remember dates & names of panj takhts? One organizer asked me multiple times to come back in the following year & I told him that I wouldn’t because the Sikh camp principal couldn’t stand the fact that I had better ideas, including a simple suggestion I made about at least letting the kids know why they’re saying Wahiguru before eating, or even teaching the kids why everyone sits on the floor in the Langar, or at least, why we have a langar in the first place. The other organizers told her they liked my ideas but she and her husband didn’t budge. #haumai. She wanted us to scold the kids if they were jumping around in the darbar, so what I did instead was teach them why the far bar must be a place of peace & quietness. I taught the kids why people do chaur sahib seva & they ALL wanted to do it, but first I taught them why they must wash their hands. They didn’t even know that!!! But once they did chaur sahib, they were all proud of themselves. The principal just wanted them to learn how to read Punjabi, memorize some shabads & dates, and of course learn how to stay quiet amongst other children. Imagine a person asked these kids why they have to cover their head in a gurudwara, or why they do chair sahib seva. If the kid didn’t know, all it would take to break his already-minimal faith would be someone convincing the kid that these are just unnecessary practices that Jesus doesn’t care about because Jesus is all about love instead of rituals. Anyway, with these types of Sikh camps, kids will just grow up thinking Sikhi is boring & very strict. Boring enough to leave it for the oh so loving Christianity, I wonder..? (That wasn’t a jab at Christianity.)

Enough of us have grown up in the west, so there’s no excuse for us to not come together and plan these type of lessons. I grew up with white people my entire life and I was shocked when I found out how many grown sikhs don’t know the basics of sikhi & how many mixed up Hindu practices with Sikh practices. I was even more surprised when I found out that many sikhs only care about being jatt. Being jatt has done nothing for me in Canada, but maybe I can’t relate because I didn’t grow up with Punjabis in areas like Brampton, but I doubt it would’ve done anything for me. How could it have? THREE guys I dated were so proud to be jatt Sikh, with the big khanda in their car & the huge kadaas on their wrists, but they didn’t even know the core principles of sikhi. I mean, c’mon man... So many people don’t even know that you can be a good Sikh even if you don’t keep your kes, nor read gurbaani. The baabay who only repeat “Amrit shak kay, Guru vaaley Sikh bano” are a big problem, and I understand if some of you might think I’m wrong to state such a thing. I was surprised to know how many people within our community think that putting money in the golak is an offering & that it’s a must. Yes, I mean THAT type of offering. (Saw it mentioned by a gora at Harimandar Sahib & sikhs just let him believe that we put money in golaks as a “sacrificial offerings to their god”.) That, and Christianity, are examples of what we’re losing sikhi to. Makes sense to me though.. When there’s a community of people who propose a lifestyle where there are no rules other than believing Jesus is lord, what more can the uneducated want?

So are they quick to convert because the missionaries tell them about this (false) 1 step rule? Just think about how often Christians say that Christianity isn’t even a religion! And just like that, people will see it as simplified, spiritual liberation— so easily achievable.

I wouldn’t be surprised if these Christians in Punjab have rehabs set up only for those who convert, just like how they set up clean water in African villages only after the village people convert. Unconditional love, my foot.

My parents visit Punjab yearly & I've gone twice in the last 3 years, but I’ve never seen posters with Punjabi pastors & their churches. I scoffed at those photos within this thread while my heart dropped a little.

(I read a LOT within this thread, but not everything, so I apologize if I have addressed things which were already discussed.)

After reading your post, it is not surprising. 

What you have proposed in your experience is fresh perspective and alternative way of doing things. 

I know of a teacher in one of our Khalsa Schools in the UK and her approach was able to engage in the youngsters to the point where the kids were doing all the functions in the school's darbar sahib. 

We know the problem with our people. We have to accept our shortcomings. 

Now it is time to think of action and execute  

 

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Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh
17 hours ago, Guest Cndn said:

 

The Sikh camp organizers were so impressed when I had suggested that we teach the kids about the (proven) science that’s in gurbaani, and that we teach the kids the gurbaani which talks about loving nature, being kind & even self-betterment (none of which are boring to kids).  

I've started numerous threads on this very forum in which I try and state how Sikhi is the most scientific religion....ahead of it's time...ahead of western science but all I got was being called a wa*ker. Maybe you'll have better luck than me.

I've started numerous threads on this very forum in which I state that we need to tap into the environmental feeling of youngsters today by explaining to them how Sikhi states that the environmental / nature is Waheguru (part of Waheguru...part of the sarbat) but all I got was being called a t1t. Maybe you'll have better luck than me.

I've started numerous threads on this very forum in which I try to state how the Sikh paracharaks are teaching things in a 17th century way that means absolutely nothing to da yoots today but all I got was being called a sh1t. Maybe you'll have better luck than me.

Quote

Christianity grows because of the lovey dovey messages.

No that's a very childish understanding as to why Christianity grows. For starters, it's a dead religion here in Europe (very much alive in North America though) but only grows among people either lacking in resources or lacking in scientific judgement. When it does grow among them...it grows by exploiting vulnerable people ; telling them of the eternal violence that will afflicted upon them for all eternity unless they embrace the 'love'  (sic) of jesus. 

Quote

On the other hand, those who were born to Christian parents will know the core principles of their parents’ faith, even if they don’t follow suit.

No. You're very immature if you think the average white man with a Christian name knows much about Christianity.

Quote

I wouldn’t be surprised if these Christians in Punjab have rehabs set up only for those who convert, just like how they set up clean water in African villages only after the village people convert.

How could you be surprised ? You've just heard me mention the same thing in this thread about half a dozen times.

 

Quote

 

Quote

THREE guys I dated were so proud to be jatt Sikh, with the big khanda in their car & the huge kadaas on their wrists, but they didn’t even know the core principles of sikhi.

Whoahh...hang on a minute. You're lecturing others about Sikhism and yet you have "dated" so many men that you can even mention 3 of them that had khandas in their cars ?

Quote

So many people don’t even know that you can be a good Sikh even if you don’t keep your kes, nor read gurbaani.

OK....so now we're getting closer to seeing who you really are and what your motive really is.

Quote

Like c’mon.. Which kid wants to remember dates & names of panj takhts?

Really ?  You don't think Sikh kids should be taught about the panj takhts ? I mean really ?

 

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I’ve lived in gta (Toronto area) all my life. I can tell you, for a fact, that ..the punjabi men here care more about talking hood, being jatt, and chasing panties in their (racing) bmws, rather than even beginning to know basic Sikh history. The same goes for the girls— just replace chasing panties with boxer briefs. Frankly, I don’t care about anyone’s sexual escapades..maybe even more power to them for that, I don’t know... But..... If someone were to ask my generation (& younger) what the core principles of Sikhi are, would we bet on them being able to answer?

That's a problem specific to Canada. That's why there have been numerous references on this forum equating Canada with Babylon. In other places within the Sikh diaspora, such as the UK, Australia, New Zealand and Italy....the new younger generation are more religious than their Sikh parents and have a greater knowledge of Sikhi than their parents. You're problem...or bad luck...is simply the fact that you live in Canada. Anyway, those girls and boys you've just described, there is no religion that is home to them. No Sikhism, no Christianity, no Judaism, no Hinduism, no Islam. They're simply fools that want to drink and cruise around in their cars. Are you saying the Christians have created a special place for them in their church ?

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Unconditional love, my foot.

I have heard middle aged people in the Midlands and the north of England use that expression but never heard anyone use it in Canada. Is it something that's back in vogue among young people in the Toronto area ?

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Guest Cndn
On 2/2/2020 at 2:40 PM, MisterrSingh said:

Absolutely fascinating. These are the types of discussions that we need more of so we can truly understand the root of the issues facing us, and begin to formulate solutions that go beyond a matter of superficial issues. Thanks for your contribution. I've learnt a lot.

The difficult part is finding likeminded people right? To make a shift within the gurdwaras, we’d need many of us, and I don’t even know where to begin. The people I’ve talked to about this in person slowly back away because of the challenges from gurudwara committees. Having translations of Shabads on a screen in gurudwaras is great but, as we know, it’s not enough.

I appreciate your feedback.

Sorry if this ends being a double post. I don’t know if it had been submitted.

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Might sound shallow but with youngsters today  I think a lot is to do with whose doing the parchar. If the person is younger 20s 30s  dresses well, good looking, has charisma then that probabaly works better among youngsters. Also they need to speak in a way that young people can relate to, if you speak the queens english and use fancy words or talk like a uncle then these youngsters will lose concentration fast, you need to sound a bit more common.    Need to dress normal as well or wear bana    wearing a checked shirt or jumper ain't gnna work. Person doing parchar needs to have an edge and be relatable.   

Also if you have a bit of a past, messed around abit and then came on the right path   that will make it more relatable,  people like hearing these stories. 

 

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No, you don't seem to know anything about farming in Punjab.

Well, I know enough to figure out that it isn't making ends meet for many, to the point of mass suicides. I know that farmers seem to struggle with grasping the 'complex intricacies' [cough, cough] of fertilizer and pesticide use. 

 

And you're right, I'm not interested in farming in Panjab. Now outside of Panjab is a different matter. Places where we'd be free from the backwardness of over there. I wouldn't want to be stuck in the Jazzy B wannabe filled nightmare you so poignantly described to us all (for which thanks). Plus what do you expect from Doaba, where the girls emigrate to the US and put on blue contacts and get blonde highlights......for all our faults, they couldn't get away with that in the UK.

For all the problems of Malwa, other illaakas ain't had the spiritual impress of people like Sant Isher Singh ji over there to temper the seemingly inherent backwardness a lot of apnay clearly seem to demonstrate. 

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On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

No that's a very childish understanding as to why Christianity grows. For starters, it's a dead religion here in Europe (very much alive in North America though) but only grows among people either lacking in resources or lacking in scientific judgement. When it does grow among them...it grows by exploiting vulnerable people ; telling them of the eternal violence that will afflicted upon them for all eternity unless they embrace the 'love'  (sic) of jesus. 

Yes, the focus is the lovey-dovey part of Jesus. That’s the point I made, plus I had pointed out that they prey on the uneducated, yet you disagreed with me, only to then mention “the love of Jesus”, which concludes the very point I had made that you’re also arguing against...? I’ll state it again— Christianity grows because of lovey-dovey messages. We know the story: The main point is that Jesus had so much unconditional love, that he sacrificed himself for the sins of all humans, even of those after his death. So... Did you miss the part of my post where I mentioned how the uneducated will see the appeal in the oh-so-very-easy-to-follow Christianity? Needless to state, this means that I agree with the point you had highlighted at the end of your paragraph about Christianity’s growth stemming from vulnerable people. I’m simply stating that I don’t think they could get even the vulnerable people to convert, without their lovey-dovey messages. Preying on the vulnerable to increase numbers in converts. A simple cause & effect with vulnerability + lovey dovey messages = conversions. Although I didn’t mention “internal violence” as you had, you did mention “love of Jesus” at the end of your point, which was the point you were arguing against... We agree here. Anyway, I sincerely believe that their lovey-dovey messages play a big part in how many they’re able to convert. I’ve used “lovey-dovey” too many times now, so allow me to move on.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

No. You're very immature if you think the average white man with a Christian name knows much about Christianity.

Kindly, show me where I stated, or even implied, that “the average white man with a Christian name knows much about Christianity”. Clearly, I pointed out the fact that practicing-Christian parents teach their kids the core principles of Christianity. I wasn’t referring to average white men/people with Christians names. I focused on non-Christians knowing the core principles of Christianity because their Christian parents taught them, but you switched it over to being about average white people not knowing much about Christianity. Why?

Regarding your “Christian name” & “white [people]” comments, I’d like to give you a friendly reminder that there are many non-Christians, including non-white Christians, who give their children Christian names . Heck, even aapney do it. I see your point here, but this was off track, especially the “white [people]” bit.

Let’s suppose you had a point about me not knowing X,Y,Z.. It’s still unkind & judgemental to call someone “very immature” just because they might be ignorant of the one fact you highlight. That doesn’t apply in this case, however, because you were wrong to jump to conclusions about my immaturity (ignorance) even though you were the person who equated white people with Christian names to have “much” knowledge about Christianity.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

How could you be surprised ? You've just heard me mention the same thing in this thread about half a dozen times.

I’m sorry that you don’t see how I could’ve been surprised at that, as you addressed the issue “half a dozen times”. I’d like you to reread the following sentence from from the end of my post: “I read a LOT within this thread, but not everything, so I apologize if I have addressed things which were already discussed.” 

 

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

Whoahh...hang on a minute. You're lecturing others about Sikhism and yet you have "dated" so many men that you can even mention 3 of them that had khandas in their cars ?

No, I wasn’t “lecturing” anyone about Sikhi. I had only addressed why Sikhs might be drifting from Sikhi, and as you can see, I focused on the basics of Sikhi, which is nowhere close to fathoming lectures/lessons/preachings. In fact, imho, most people in this thread have shown, through respectful dialogue, great understandings of the dire need for Sikh parents & lost Sikhs to understand Sikhi, so why would I even think about lecturing anyone here about Sikhi..? You question my integrity to determine my right to discuss matters concerning Sikhs being converted just because I’ve dated more than 3 men. 

Please, let’s explore that...

Yes, I’ve dated more than 3 men. Do you think dating is un-Sikh? If so, do you also put dating & s*xual acts go hand-in-hand? Dating someone just means getting to know the person. If Person A goes on some dates with Person B & they come to understand that they don’t connect philosophically, spirituality, mentally, or emotionally then they aren’t a right fit. If they do connect on those things though, they can continue to date without going against sikhi. Dating doesn’t have to involve s*xual or physical acts, or even flirting. In fact, it can be done without going against any Sikhi. If you didn’t know this by now, I’d like to inform you that this is how some amritdharis go about finding a spouse. My amritdhari parents encouraged me to get to know someone to ensure a better jodi/rishta. Please, let me know which Shabad/Tukk suggests that getting to know someone before marrying them is sinful or that it goes against Sikhi. That’s some serious Arab Islamic mentality. No disrespect to them, (as not all of them are like that) but we can do better than sticking with outdated (shame! shame!) views on dating. I don’t know what you were thinking, but dating certainly means something different to you than it does to me, but for some reason, you seem to have questioned my dignity just because you know I’ve dated more than 3 men? You go even further & state “So many men”. You stating that wasn’t taken as an insult, a jab, nor a valid point. It’s not difficult for me to remember 3 cars having khandas in them. For all you care, I could’ve dated a total of 4. Even if I had dated 40 men, it could’ve been easily done without sinning, without any physical contact, without flirting & without going against Sikhi.. But.. I wouldn’t bet on your odd judgement stopping suddenly, but I sincerely hope you don’t carry on with such preconceived notions based on whatever garbage you might’ve been fed about the tiny confines of dating “norms”. Sorry if that seemed rude; I’d just rather be straight with you.

Please let me how you would judge when to, or when not to question a person “lecturing others” (discussing with others) about Sikhism. I don’t know if you think only amritdhari Sikhs are good Sikhs, but I think you’re too well versed to think that. Imho, Sikhs are those who practice the core principles of Sikhism while also consistently conducting themselves to avoid the great 5 sins. Obviously, I don’t think they compare to a more committed Sikh (e.g amritdhari) but they are, nonetheless, practicing Sikhs. If you’d like to engage in dialogues regarding what makes a person a better Sikh & even what qualifies one to “lecture” (discuss) others about Sikhism, I’d be happy to see a new thread dedicated to that.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

OK....so now we're getting closer to seeing who you really are and what your motive really is.

Please, enlighten me on how you’re getting closer to seeing I really am & seeing what my motives really are.
 

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

Really ?  You don't think Sikh kids should be taught about the panj takhts ? I mean really ?

Where did I state that kids shouldn’t be taught about the Panj takhts?

In response to what, exactly, had you asked “Really?” ? As in, “really” what? What’s the confusion? What did you not comprehend/ understand? It couldn’t be the part where I suggested that kids don’t want to (and won’t) remember dates, and even names of the Panj takhts. Is that where the misunderstanding lies? You’re too grown to not understand that this simply won’t stay in the memory banks of kids. And you’re too literate to know that what I had stated couldn’t, at all, mean that kids shouldn’t be taught about the Panj takhts. No way; it can’t be lol. Not with everything else I wrote about the Sikh kids camp. I know you didn’t mean to have this conjured up idea of yours that you thought I had. Please think before asking such a baseless question again. Sorry if that seemed rude; It isn’t meant to be.


 

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

Anyway, those girls and boys you've just described, there is no religion that is home to them. No Sikhism, no Christianity, no Judaism, no Hinduism, no Islam. They're simply fools that want to drink and cruise around in their cars.

Since I’m not an antarjaami, I won’t jump to such conclusions. I won’t prejudge, as you have, that “they’re simply fools that want to drink”, just because they don’t know the basics of Sikhi. I will not make such negative assumptions based on minimal information. (Besides, a person without religion doesn’t always mean they’ll drink, so I don’t know why you’ve brought up drinking. In fact, there are plenty of atheists who don’t drink & even more atheists who’ve chosen to become vegetarian or vegan solely for moral reasons.) When I pointed out that many Punjabis in the GTA don’t the basics of Sikhi, I didn’t equate it to them wanting “to drink and cruise around”. I find it odd that just because you think they’re without religious spirituality, it must mean that they (want to) drink. And.. I find it peculiar that you asked me this follow up question:

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

Are you saying the Christians have created a special place for them in their church ?

I can’t tell if that was a rhetorical or sarcastic question. To answer.. No, I didn’t even imply that that is the case. Just a reminder.. I’ve never lived in Punjabi areas, so I have no idea how little or great the Christians & their churches play a part in Punjabi-populated cities, such as Brampton, because I only have one friend from a Punjabi-populated area (Brampton). For this reason, I can only speak from my minimal experiences of the times I’ve visited there & Punjabi-populated areas of Mississauga & Punjabi-populated areas of Toronto. I didn’t state anything that should lead one to think I had implied that Christians have a special place for these Punjabis nor anyone else, and I wouldn’t because I have not, & do not, live(d) around them.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

I have heard middle aged people in the Midlands and the north of England use that expression but never heard anyone use it in Canada. Is it something that's back in vogue among young people in the Toronto area ?

I can’t tell if you’re serious or not. To answer your question—No. I just read a lot & watch a lot of foreign tv & films, so I sometimes use expressions that are uncommon in my area, including random British expressions, as I grew up watching several British shows & movies. In some parts of North America, some people say “my *ss” instead of “my foot”. I obviously opted for the latter lol..

 


I live as much of a truthful life as I can. Knowing when to disengage from certain discussions often leaves me a little bit conflicted. Having stated this, I won’t back away if you truly think that we cannot put things such as *respectful dating, and *not forcing kids to remember Panj takhts instead of core Sikh principles inside of the Sikhi box.

As I had stated earlier in this post.. If you’d like to engage in dialogues with people regarding what makes a person a better Sikh & if you’d like to discuss what qualifies one to “lecture” (discuss with) others about Sikhism, I’m sure many people would be happy to have that discussion with you in another thread.

I appreciate this dialogue and I look forward to your responses, especially those that have to do with the conversion problem. Much love.

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Where did I state that kids shouldn’t be taught about the Panj takhts?

In response to what, exactly, had you asked “Really?” ? As in, “really” what? What’s the confusion? What did you not comprehend/ understand? It couldn’t be the part where I suggested that kids don’t want to (and won’t) remember dates, and even names of the Panj takhts. Is that where the misunderstanding lies? You’re too grown to not understand that this simply won’t stay in the memory banks of kids. And you’re too literate to know that what I had stated couldn’t, at all, mean that kids shouldn’t be taught about the Panj takhts. No way; it can’t be lol. Not with everything else I wrote about the Sikh kids camp. I know you didn’t mean to have this conjured up idea of yours that you thought I had. Please think before asking such a baseless question again. Sorry if that seemed rude; It isn’t meant to be.

 

Ooooh I dunno...maybe the bit when you said "Like c’mon.. Which kid wants to remember dates & names of panj takhts?"

Look Guest Cndn,  let's get serious for a moment: As your'e from Toronto you'd do well to remember that most of the people you are conversing with here are from the UK, meaning we are now mostly 3rd and 4th generation born outside the Punjab. My parents were born in London and yet they were happy to learn about and indeed did learn about the Takhts and I would say they knew more about Sikhi and are more moral than my grandparents. I was born in London and I was happy to learn about and indeed learn about the Takhts and I know I definately know more about Sikhi than my parents.  My children are born in London and not only do they know about the Takhts they most definately know so much more about Sikhi than I...so much so that they teach me. As I said before, you're problem, and the problems you're seeing, are Toronto problems. It is the newest, youngest, babiest of all the great Sikh diasporas. The Sikh community is undeveloped mentally. It's behaving in the same way that Punjabi men used to behave in London and Birmingham back in the 1960s and 70s. It will mature. At the moment it is the epicentre of Punjabi culture throughout the globe but the Babylon of Sikhi. At the moment, it is full of 1st generation immigrants and their children who are just so excited to be living a wonderful life with freedom and comforts but doesn't have the mental maturity to understand concepts such as collective morality.

Anyway......no offence to you....It's always nice to see a new face around here and I'm dead against the people that always make newcomers feel unwelcome and give them a hard time. That's not what I want to do at all. What I do want to do however is take this thread back on track. People who know me on this forum know that I am a critical race theorist. I have previously explained, on other threads, that the white man (and you can easily substitute 'white man' with the word Christian) always finds a way of getting the brown and black man to blame themselves and start fighting their own. You may not realise it but that's exactly what you've done here on this thread. There are white christian movements based in Chicago, Toronto, Arizona and Kansas that are funding ways to erode the Punjab as we know and love it because they say we are backward an unenlightened. Instead of fighting them and defeating them you've come along and done exactly what they want : You've come along and said the same thing, i.e. we are backward and unenlightened. The problem is not us, my canuck friend.  Open your eyes and identify the enemy. You, as a Sikh, have a fight on your hands. Constantly punching and kicking yourself is only weakening your readiness for the fight. And when I say 'you' I mean the collective 'we'.

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On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Ooooh I dunno...maybe the bit when you said "Like c’mon.. Which kid wants to remember dates & names of panj takhts?"

I didn’t mean that they’re not happy to learn them; I just meant that it isn’t fun for most kids. Please stop being offended by something that your mind conjured up. Do you think that learning dates & names is fun for kids? What I meant (to spell it out for you) was that children, in general, approach things like dates & names with such disinterest, that it’s being proven to not sit in their memory banks. Such lessons have been found to be unmemorable, and ineffective for engaging children. Add this to the fact that it was about kids who attend the camp once a year. Is it not our responsibility to engage their interests in Sikhi? So.. Please express less sensitivity, and express more concern instead (I know you’re concerned), as I am discussing the failure within Sikh youth camps. If you’d like to discuss the factors we study to understand the developmental stages of cognition within children, we can do so in a different thread. (I know you’re concerned, but please don’t express more sensitivity than concern, as you did when jumping to conclusions about my dating life, and when you assumed that I think children shouldn't learn dates & names of the Panj Takhts.) To clarify again.. I never implied that they shouldn’t learn dates & names, nor that they’re not happy to do so—I only pointed out that children are uninterested in memorizing dates & names.

 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Look Guest Cndn,  let's get serious for a moment:

I know it’s just an expression, but I sincerely have been serious in my posts here.

 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

The Sikh community is undeveloped mentally. It's behaving in the same way that Punjabi men used to behave in London and Birmingham back in the 1960s and 70s. It will mature. At the moment it is the epicentre of Punjabi culture throughout the globe but the Babylon of Sikhi.

I agree, and that’s why my first post in the thread outlined where I’m from. I dated a British Sikh in uni, and he always said that I was a breath of fresh air. That’s unfortunate, but he wasn’t wrong about Canadians lacking knowledge about Sikhi. (Btw, you didn’t respond to my response to your comments on me “dating so many guys”. I hope you changed your views on that to a far less Arab-Islamic outlook.)

 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Anyway......no offence to you....It's always nice to see a new face around here and I'm dead against the people that always make newcomers feel unwelcome and give them a hard time. That's not what I want to do at all.

Firstly, I didn’t feel offended— just disappointed in how you judged someone for simply dating, and also in how you ignored/ overlooked/ misconstrued my point on how children (naturally) dislike learning dates & names when it comes to things that they only come across once a year in youth camp.

Secondly, I’m not a new face here lol. I was a member for several years before I quit posting. Now, I only post in GUPT, less than once a year. Prior to posting in this thread this year, I hadn’t posted since 2016 I think.

 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

I have previously explained, on other threads, that the white man (and you can easily substitute 'white man' with the word Christian) always finds a way of getting the brown and black man to blame themselves and start fighting their own. You may not realise it but that's exactly what you've done here on this thread.

Do you really think I’m fighting you, and/or that I’m blaming Sikhs? If so, you’re mistaken. By starting a dialogue about the mistakes that I’ve seen the Sikh immigrants make when running Sikh youth camps, you think I’m fighting someone here, or that I’m blaming Sikhs? C’mon now...

 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

There are white christian movements based in Chicago, Toronto, Arizona and Kansas that are funding ways to erode the Punjab as we know and love it because they say we are backward an unenlightened.

Yes, I know this. It is due to the serious nature of this topic, that I joined the conversation in this thread.

 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Instead of fighting them and defeating them you've come along and done exactly what they want : You've come along and said the same thing, i.e. we are backward and unenlightened.

You’re thinking of someone else. Not once, have ever implied that Sikhs are backward, nor that Sikhs are unenlightened. In fact, you had stated something closer to what you’re accusing me of now:

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

The Sikh community is undeveloped mentally. It will mature. At the moment it is the epicentre of Punjabi culture throughout the globe but the Babylon of Sikhi. At the moment / [it] doesn't have the mental maturity to understand concepts such as collective morality.

Here, 👆 we can see that YOU did what you accused me of doing. (Not only did I not do what you accuse me of, but you’re blaming me in the same context of what you’re suggesting we shouldn’t........) Please don’t accuse others of something they, not only, didn’t do..but also, something that you’ve done. I don’t know why you’re now condemning what you did, while blaming me for it.

I’ve never suggested that Sikhs/Sikh communities are backward or unenlightened. YOU have. And then you falsely accuse me of the very thing which you condemned... Why?


 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

The problem is not us, my canuck friend.

I was never one of the people in this thread who suggested that we are the problem.

 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

Open your eyes and identify the enemy. You, as a Sikh, have a fight on your hands. And when I say 'you' I mean the collective 'we'.

That’s why I’m discussing it with the online sangat. I don’t know why you’re going about this in a way that suggests I’m blind to the facts (specifically, the ones presented in this thread.) It’s honestly beyond me why you’re jumping to conclusions about me.

 

You have been a bit unkind to me dear brother, and you’ve definitely passed prejudgments on me, and now, have even been hypocritical by projecting your own actions onto me while condemning them.

So, to you, I wish to say: 

On 2/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, Guest Jigsaw_Puzzled_Singh said:

the white man / (Christian) always finds a way of getting the brown and black man to blame themselves and start fighting their own. You may not realise it but that's exactly what you've done here on this thread. / Instead of fighting them and defeating them you've come along and done exactly what they want : You've come along and said the same thing, i.e. we are backward and unenlightened.


 

I don’t even know if you’ll see this or reply. Just thought I’d put my two cents in.
 

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