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Need help answering a Christian's Questions on the nature of Waheguru in Sikhi


TheeTurbanator
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If your "friend" wants to know exactly "how" God created the creation, I would say that that's a totally worthless question. Why does he need to know "how" God created the world and infused with Maya (3 qualities and 5 vices)?

Is he planning to create a universe anytime soon?

About such philosophical exercises, Guru ji says:

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 
Hundreds of thousands of clever thoughts, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end. 

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Here is a pauri by Guru Nanak Dev ji which addresses some of these issues:

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

ਸਾਰੰਗ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ: (ਮਃ ੪) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅੰਗ ੧੨੩੭ 

 

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

The Immaculate Lord Himself, by Himself, created Himself.

ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਓਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥

He Himself created the whole drama of all the world's play.

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਆਪਿ ਸਿਰਜਿਅਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਇਆ ॥

He Himself formed the three gunas, the three qualities; He increased the attachment to Maya.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਉਬਰੇ ਜਿਨ ਭਾਣਾ ਭਾਇਆ ॥

By Guru's Grace, they are saved - those who love the Will of God.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਸਭ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੧॥

O Nanak, the True Lord is pervading everywhere; all are contained within the True Lord. ||1||

 

The shabad states that God created the creation and maya (illusion). The Guru grants Grace and saves those who love God's will.

Those who love God's Will will be saved. Meanwhile, the likes of your "friend" will remain entangled in fruitless philosophical arguments.

Note: I may quibble with the translation of the first line. Some scholars think that when Gurbani talks of God "creating Himself", it's referring to establishing himself in the Universe.

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4 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! 

 

Here is a question i I received from a Christian who is studying Sikhi: 

If waheguru is eternal and encompasses the universe (but not limited to just the universe itself) and has existed always and will always continue to exist, how did ego enter into at least part of the world? if waheguru is inside all things including humans, at what point did parts of waheguru (by parts I mean humans, animals etc) get "infected" with ego? It would stand to reason that something pure like waheguru could never succumb to ego. for example the gurus or fully realized people will never succumb to ego again, correct? so if waheguru existed eternally, how did ego enter? has ego also existed eternally with waheguru? (I don't think this is the Sikhi standpoint).

Is it possible for waheguru to cease existing permanently, or for waheguru to tell lies? I would assume that it would not be, since it goes against waheguru's nature, correct? Why would waheguru create confusion/ego/illusion and cause part of itself to be deluded?

How do Sikh's know then that the Gurus never made a mistake, if as you say it's possible for a fully realized person to become deluded? Based on this, is it even possible that waheguru spoke some falsehoods or lies, even in the SGGS or part of the Sikh teachings?” 

How would you answere this question? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

they call it original sin  basically it's when the ego i.e. free will started getting fooled by maya into thinking of duality i.e. we are seperate from Akal Purakh: and became deluded into following our egos animalistic drives.  as true needs . Waheguru is perfect , we are imperfect in our understanding thus have forgotten our true natures  thus in their terms we are fallen and sinners(antihukham)

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1 hour ago, DarshaPyasi1984 said:

i agree. Try to find the intentions of your friend. Maybe he's curious, I have doubts however. 

my twin son' best friends are Christian and have openly said that they believe my lads are destined for narak because they have not accepted the Christos . Strange how despite that they will constantly ask to understand Akal Purakh as a concept cause our definition has more love, acceptance, protection  and zero jealousy, anger or envy  theory .

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thats what makes sikhi so unique. There is nothing like it in the world.

1. All other religions like Christainity and Islam say if u dont follow their religion u go to hell. Sikhi says, if you don't do naam jap and good actions and waste time doing paps, you will go to hell and be reborn through 8.4 lakh joons

2. Sikhi accepts that people from other religions can meet God through naam.

3. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, there is place for all religoins, budhism, Islam, Hindus because of bhagat bani. No other scripture from any religion is like that

4. Guru sahib actually wrote gurbani themselves. Bible was wrote 200 years after Jesus, and I think it was similar for Quaran.

5. Quaran and Bible have different versions and can change so much and have changed so much over time. Gurbani is perfect at all times, no need for changes.

6. Islam and christainity promise heaven and freedom hell for believers, Sikhi says there is sachkhand (completely different from heaven) for gursikhs. 

7. Guru sahib gave sikhs everything. We have our own Kirtan which is unique ( no dharam has their scriptures written in raags), we have gatka, and our own identity, our own everything because of Guru Sahib

8. NO other religion really has langar except for sikhi

9. Women have most equality and respect in sikhi, even within gurbani

10. Everyone is born sikh, with scissors you can trim hair and become part of other religions, without scissors, everyone would be sikh (Qoute from Sant Jarnail Singh Ji)

11. No religions has as many shaheedis as brutal as in Sikhi.

12. Nothing can compare to Darbar Sahib.

13. No other religions really has miri or piri concept

14. We have our own 5 takhts for political power

15. Shashtars in Sikh 

16. There is nothing like Amrit in other religions. Christians may have baptism, but they can do it over and over again. Amrit is one time thing.

17. No one can equal guru sahib and their sacrifices,  i.e Abraham who started the line for Islam, Jews, Christains, did not kill his son when god asked him to sacrifice him in God's name. Then in sikhi we have Guru Gobind Singh ji maharaj who watched all sons give shaheedi and give jakaras at same time. 

18. Guru Gobind Singh ji maharaj made us a part of themselves by giving us amrit, and giving us sikhi saroop to have with beards, dastars, rehat etc.

19. SO MUCH MORE I DONT HAVE TIME TO TELL ABOUT 

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34 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

my twin son' best friends are Christian and have openly said that they believe my lads are destined for narak because they have not accepted the Christos . Strange how despite that they will constantly ask to understand Akal Purakh as a concept cause our definition has more love, acceptance, protection  and zero jealousy, anger or envy  theory .

This is a very common misconception in Christianity.  They think saying I'm with Jesus is all you have to do to get to heaven. 

Then they ignore the entirety of Christ's message.  

Furthermore sects within christianity think only they are saved. So mormons think everyone else are going to hell. Jehovah witnesses think 144000 jehova witnesses from each age are saved and even the rest of the jehova witnesses are going to hell. Meanwhile they act like a bunch of hateful manmuhks largely. 

You can remind your friends Jesus was a jew, and that no matter what sect of christian you are, another sect thinks you're going to hell. 

These mutually exclusive beliefs fail to take time and space into account. So what? Everyone before a certain time are up a creek? 

Al Capone was a christian.  Think he's closer to God and saved? Saint like person from another culture out of luck? No way 

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In Astpadi 16 of Sukhmani Sahib, Guru ji describes how God Himself is extant within creation, and He Himself is the doer and observer. 

Near the end, Guru Sahib waxes about the wonder of this divine play:

ਬਿਸਮਨ ਬਿਸਮ ਭਏ ਬਿਸਮਾਦ ॥

Gazing upon His wondrous wonder, I am wonder-struck and amazed!

ਜਿਨਿ ਬੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਇਆ ਸ੍ਵਾਦ ॥

One who realizes this, comes to taste this state of joy.

 

 

So how does one realize this? The answer is in the next verse:

 

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਚਿ ਜਨ ਰਹੇ ॥

God's humble servants remain absorbed in His Love.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਚਨਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਲਹੇ ॥

Following the Guru's Teachings, they receive the four cardinal blessings.

 

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Also from the 16th Astpadi, and very pertinent for your Christian "friend":

ਪਿਤਾ ਕਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਕਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਪੂਤੁ ॥

What does the son know of his father's birth?

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੬) ੩:੩ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੮੪ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Gauri Sukhmanee Guru Arjan Dev

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From Asa di Vaar, Guru Nanak Dev ji talks about the nature of ego. 

One thing that I get from this is that only because haumai exists does the Divine Play exist, including deaths and births, heaven and hell, pleasure and pain. I think you should ask your Christian "friend" if he likes being alive, i.e., having an existence. If not, why doesn't he kill himself? If he does, then why is he complaining that God creating haumai? If there were no haumai, your Christian friend wouldn't exist. If you think about it, every jeev (lifeform) needs haumai to exist. In order to keep living every organism prioritizes its own survival (which itself is a form of haumai). If it didn't it would die.

From page 466:

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੧ ॥

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਗਇਆ ॥

In ego they come, and in ego they go.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੰਮਿਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮੁਆ ॥

In ego they are born, and in ego they die.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਦਿਤਾ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਲਇਆ ॥

Ho Vich Dhithaa Ho Vich Laeiaa ||

In ego they give, and in ego they take.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਖਟਿਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਗਇਆ ॥

In ego they earn, and in ego they lose.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ਕੂੜਿਆਰੁ ॥

In ego they become truthful or false.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

In ego they reflect on virtue and sin.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ॥

In ego they go to heaven or hell.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਸੈ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਰੋਵੈ ॥

In ego they laugh, and in ego they weep.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਰੀਐ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੋਵੈ ॥

In ego they become dirty, and in ego they are washed clean.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਤੀ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਖੋਵੈ ॥

In ego they lose social status and class.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥

In ego they are ignorant, and in ego they are wise.

ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥

They do not know the value of salvation and liberation.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਛਾਇਆ ॥

In ego they love Maya, and in ego they are kept in darkness by it.

ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੰਤ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

Living in ego, mortal beings are created.

ਹਉਮੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਤਾ ਦਰੁ ਸੂਝੈ ॥

When one understands ego, then the Lord's gate is known.

ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਲੂਝੈ ॥

Without spiritual wisdom, they babble and argue.

[Oh, look! Here's your "friend", mentioned in Gurbani, as a babbler and arguer!]

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੁ ॥

O Nanak, by the Lord's Command, destiny is recorded.

ਜੇਹਾ ਵੇਖਹਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥੧॥

As the Lord sees us, so are we seen. ||1||

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Guru Angad Dev ji continues the theme on ego in the next Salok:

 

ਮਹਲਾ ੨ ॥

ਹਉਮੈ ਏਹਾ ਜਾਤਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥

This is the nature of ego, that people perform their actions in ego.

ਹਉਮੈ ਏਈ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਪਾਹਿ ॥

This is the bondage of ego, that time and time again, they are reborn.

ਹਉਮੈ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਕਿਤੁ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਇਹ ਜਾਇ ॥

Where does ego come from? How can it be removed?

[Here, Guru Sahib asks the same question that your Christian friend was asking: Where does ego come from?]

ਹਉਮੈ ਏਹੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥

This ego exists by the Lord's Order; people wander according to their past actions.

[The answer is simply that it's the Will of God. At some point or another your "friend" needs to accept the God has the right to make decisions in His creation, because ... He's God, and your friend isn't.]

ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

Ego is a chronic disease, but it contains its own cure as well.

ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਜੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਤਾ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥

If the Lord grants His Grace, one acts according to the Teachings of the Guru's Shabad.

[This is the main point: Regardless of where ego came from, our objective is to be free of it. And the way to do that is practice his commands. Note: ਸਬਦ ਕਮਾਉਣਾ can mean both 1) acting in accordance to God's command and 2) doing abhias of the Gurmanter.]

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਜਨਹੁ ਇਤੁ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਦੁਖ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੨॥

Nanak says, listen, people: in this way, troubles depart. ||2||

 

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