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puzzled

200 year old sikh build being demolished tonight!!

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6 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think the thinking is that massive, imposing buildings impress and bring in more visitors and thus are a good thing compared to smaller, older structures. 

The crass and ostentatious nature of it flies in the face of the values we're supposed to value and encourage as Sikhs. This may upset some people but this is a prime example of a lesser cultural mindset. I suppose it's a knock-on effect of the wider culture of the environment in which issues like these occur. I just don't see where aspects of our religious teachings suddenly disappear to when it comes to these issues. It really is picking and choosing what to believe and how to behave dependent on circumstances and whims.

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5 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

The crass and ostentatious nature of it flies in the face of the values we're supposed to value and encourage as Sikhs. This may upset some people but this is a prime example of a lesser cultural mindset. I suppose it's a knock-on effect of the wider culture of the environment in which issues like these occur. I just don't see where aspects of our religious teachings suddenly disappear to when it comes to these issues. It really is picking and choosing what to believe and how to behave dependent on circumstances and whims.

A big part of it is that lack of sophistication thing I bang on about. 

You have to have a certain level of 'culture' and intelligence to actually grasp how important physical heritage is. We don't have it. We think 'culture' is a tumbhi and bhangra in bright clothes.

Look at how many manuscript gutkas/maharaj sahib's have been 'cremated' over the years. Look at how priceless heritage like puratan shasters are cared for - or protected.

Look at how many manuscripts we lost in 1984.  No one thought to make copies in all the years? 

Okay, we do have some efforts in the right direction in the west by the diaspora - but generally in our culture backhome - these things are beyond their comprehension it seems. 

And people might get butt-hurt at what I'm about to say but a big part of this is having people who have convinced themselves they are 'high caste' who only really recently (in generational terms) were unlettered farmers in fields. They don't have that subtle appreciation of arts and craft and literature like genuinely old money does. They prefer other conspicuous and (let's be frank) outright crass shows of status. Subtlety and sophistication isn't something that comes natural to them.  It just seems like poor people who've got some money and power now and aren't too sure of what to do with it. But it's not all completely hopeless as Panjab Digital Library shows. 

Plus let's be honest, the idea of religious artifacts and buildings being used as income generators isn't exactly a new one to our lot. Certain brothers are smart. They know how simple minded and pious other brothers can be in the face of these things - heck even I would throw money money at these things in the past before I realised what the bigger picture was/is. 

There is logic and incentive behind these culturally destructive moves - as short sighted as they are. 

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21 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

A big part of it is that lack of sophistication thing I bang on about. 

You have to have a certain level of 'culture' and intelligence to actually grasp how important physical heritage is. We don't have it. We think 'culture' is a tumbhi and bhangra in bright clothes.

Look at how many manuscript gutkas/maharaj sahib's have been 'cremated' over the years. Look at how priceless heritage like puratan shasters are cared for - or protected.

Look at how many manuscripts we lost in 1984.  No one thought to make copies in all the years? 

Okay, we do have some efforts in the right direction in the west by the diaspora - but generally in our culture backhome - these things are beyond their comprehension it seems. 

And people might get butt-hurt at what I'm about to say but a big part of this is having people who have convinced themselves they are 'high caste' who only really recently (in generational terms) were unlettered farmers in fields. They don't have that subtle appreciation of arts and craft and literature like genuinely old money does. They prefer other conspicuous and (let's be frank) outright crass shows of status. Subtlety and sophistication isn't something that comes natural to them.  It just seems like poor people who've got some money and power now and aren't too sure of what to do with it. But it's not all completely hopeless as Panjab Digital Library shows. 

Plus let's be honest, the idea of religious artifacts and buildings being used as income generators isn't exactly a new one to our lot. Certain brothers are smart. They know how simple minded and pious other brothers can be in the face of these things - heck even I would throw money money at these things in the past before I realised what the bigger picture was/is. 

There is logic and incentive behind these culturally destructive moves - as short sighted as they are. 

You conflate everything with caste. 

Not everything has to be being a Jat.

 

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1 minute ago, Ranjeet01 said:

You conflate everything with caste. 

Not everything has to be being a Jat.

 

Most of what passes for Panjabi 'culture' these days is though isn't it. 

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9 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Most of what passes for Panjabi 'culture' these days is though isn't it. 

What passes for Punjabi culture is agricultural culture.

Now if the Jatts are the best representative of that culture it's because they are the dominant agricultural culture. 

The fact the urban sophisticated Punjabi culture was probably dominated by Khatris and they have not stepped up since partition is not the Jatts fault.

The Khatris moved on to Delhi and Mumbai.

That Bollywood culture is built by the urban Hindu Punjabi Khatri from pre-partition Punjab.

You cannot blame the Jatts for that.

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13 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

What passes for Punjabi culture is agricultural culture.

Now if the Jatts are the best representative of that culture it's because they are the dominant agricultural culture. 

The fact the urban sophisticated Punjabi culture was probably dominated by Khatris and they have not stepped up since partition is not the Jatts fault.

The Khatris moved on to Delhi and Mumbai.

That Bollywood culture is built by the urban Hindu Punjabi Khatri from pre-partition Punjab.

You cannot blame the Jatts for that.

Well, we finally agree that what is passing for 'culture' in our society today is Jut culture then - or more accurately a modern interpretation of it, influenced by many outside global forces hence all the things you see in a modern Panjabi film, especially in terms of dress and style.  With all its negatives and positives. 

That Panjabi film industry seems quite distinct from Bollywood stuff from what little I fleetingly see of the two. 

This is not a blame game. It's trying to recognise why we are where we are, and what we might be able to do to change things that require changing. 

If we don't start getting more innovative and reflective and adaptive - I don't think most of us will like where we will end up. 

We're already following those western norms of projecting unreal, fantasy lifestyles via our media - give it a generation and we might be seeing all the psychological problems we see in the west that are a  consequence of pushing unreal lifestyles to the masses. 

How comes all reflective comment is met by hawkish defensiveness? 

No people can't sit on thrones and generally direct a society, and then fail to take responsibility for where we've reached. 

It might not be all bad, but we need to keep our eyes open and brains engaged to avoid walking into a quagmire in future. 

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Can you guys take your caste talks on another thread and stop ruining my thread on heritage. Take it to the thread started by big tits sorry big tera 

Edited by puzzled

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3 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Well, we finally agree that what is passing for 'culture' in our society today is Jut culture then - or more accurately a modern interpretation of it, influenced by many outside global forces hence all the things you see in a modern Panjabi film, especially in terms of dress and style.  With all its negatives and positives. 

That Panjabi film industry seems quite distinct from Bollywood stuff from what little I fleetingly see of the two. 

This is not a blame game. It's trying to recognise why we are where we are, and what we might be able to do to change things that require changing. 

If we don't start getting more innovative and reflective and adaptive - I don't think most of us will like where we will end up. 

We're already following those western norms of projecting unreal, fantasy lifestyles via our media - give it a generation and we might be seeing all the psychological problems we see in the west that are a  consequence of pushing unreal lifestyles to the masses. 

How comes all reflective comment is met by hawkish defensiveness? 

No people can't sit on thrones and generally direct a society, and then fail to take responsibility for where we've reached. 

It might not be all bad, but we need to keep our eyes open and brains engaged to avoid walking into a quagmire in future. 

The problem like I said before is not Juts. 

The problem is materialism and a loss of morals.

It is not just happening in Punjab it is happening in India. 

There are seismic societal changes taking place.

You seem to be very bitter against Juts.

This is something very common among East African Tharkhans like yourself. 

Your bitterness is not because of oppression, it's because yourself want to be dominant. 

The problem with us Juts is that we are too numerous and we take our chances, nobody gave us chances, we took it.

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4 minutes ago, puzzled said:

How much damage was done before the intervention?

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How can you link alcohol ad lakh of morality to one caste?  Dallysingh  have you never been to a tharkhan wedding and seen the drunken state the men and women are in by the end of the reception party?  Stop being biased    

Kenyan sikhs are among the biggest drunks and liberals out there   much worse than jatts   I used to work at a hotel and have seen many Kenyan tharkhan  weddings     far from sophisticated.  Get over yourself mate.

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10 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Can you guys take your caste talks on another thread and stop ruining my thread on heritage. Take it to the thread started by big tits sorry big tera 

Apologies.

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1 minute ago, MisterrSingh said:

How much damage was done before the intervention?

Looks like a whole corner of the building was demolished  

Shows how slow the authorities were before they got involved, 

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2 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The problem like I said before is not Juts. 

The problem is materialism and a loss of morals.

It is not just happening in Punjab it is happening in India. 

There are seismic societal changes taking place.

You seem to be very bitter against Juts.

This is something very common among East African Tharkhans like yourself. 

Your bitterness is not because of oppression, it's because yourself want to be dominant. 

The problem with us Juts is that we are too numerous and we take our chances, nobody gave us chances, we took it.

I told you that I'm not from Africa and nor are my family. We aren't the starched pag brigade. lol So give that one a rest. We are proper Panjabis.

Okay, at least you're being a bit more honest now. You took your chances. Which is good. Now we have to be careful people don't wreck this thing. We've got a lot of dushmunhs out there, and we aren't getting that high level leadership like we had in the past with M. Ranjit Singh etc. Your people aren't the only ones who've invested into this thing. You ain't the only ones who've taken their chances with this thing either.

And you should figure out the difference between people resisting domination and those that want to dominate. Two very different things. 

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Just YouTube the tharkhan and arora weddings on YouTube and see how "sophisticated" they are and how high their morals are     

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