Raam calls meat sacred in Valmiki Ramayan.

[chatanga1]

On 3/1/2020 at 7:32 PM, jkvlondon said:

he belittles questioners for legimately questioning the following of dubious behavioural examples e.g. lying to Arjun , murder of shudar etc

Sri Krishan lied to Arjun about what?

Bhai Daya Singh told a lie to protect Guru Gobind Singh Ji at Machhiwara. The respected Pir of the Muslims reinforced that same lie by telling the Moghals it was not Guru Sahib.

 

On 3/2/2020 at 5:08 PM, MisterrSingh said:

If only our entire mythology and cultural and religious frames of reference weren't so inextricably binded to the Hindu faith. There's no getting away from it unfortunately. The branch may have deviated from the other branches, but the trunk and the roots are sadly one and the same. 

We don't need to get away from it. There is a reason why Guru Sahib wrote in Sri Dasme Patshah Granth Sahib " Ram katha jug jug atal sabh ko bhakt net."

We need to learn and understand from these in order to improve ourselves. The root and trunks you are talking about is "Dharam."

 

On 3/2/2020 at 8:55 PM, jkvlondon said:

Their mul is starting from vedas but they mostly disregard the worship of paramatma plumping for the fear angle covered by Vishnu and Shiva(sustenance and destruction). Even Brahma is not worshipped the same way.

Another sentence straight out your backside.

Sri Vishnu and Shiv Ji are not worshipped out of fear. Some aspect of Shiv Ji are worshipped as fearsome ir Rudra, but even that is not the same as fear-based worship. Its still prema bhagti.

And why is Brahma not worshipped in the same way?

 

On 3/2/2020 at 8:55 PM, jkvlondon said:

Their vedas supposedly came from Brahma but do they even acknowledge him?

"Supposedly" ? So according to you, Guru Gobind Singh is not worthy of being totally beleived when Guru Sahibw writes in his holy granth Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib "bed-raaj brahma ju theeo..."

[puzzled]

32 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

At the time of Sita being sent to Maharishi Balmik's ashram Ram did not know she was pregnant.

As for a "real man." Many thousands died in the war between Sri Ram Chander and Ravan. Cities were destroyed, and lineages were decimated. For one woman. A real man would have said forget killing thousands to save one. A dharmi pursh would have gone to war.

Like the Sikhs did, for the Brahman of Kasur

No he knew she was pregnant    he senced it    I read the valmiki version. 

He dumped his pregnant wife  

 

[MisterrSingh]

18 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

We don't need to get away from it. There is a reason why Guru Sahib wrote in Sri Dasme Patshah Granth Sahib " Ram katha jug jug atal sabh ko bhakt net."

We need to learn and understand from these in order to improve ourselves. The root and trunks you are talking about is "Dharam."

I agree. I probably shouldn't have used the term unfortunately. It is what it is. But equally "it" also works against our interests at times in a political and cultural identity sense especially in recent history. The religious and mythological basis of it all is sound as far as I'm concerned, because as you know we were warded off the worship of these gods and beings. That doesn't mean they were worthless or devilish in any way. 

[chatanga1]

On 3/2/2020 at 10:56 PM, puzzled said:

But the reason people dont worship brahma in india is because he actually was a very lusty and egotistical devta.

No. This is not the answer. You have actually answered it further in your post.

 

On 3/2/2020 at 10:56 PM, puzzled said:

Brahma being embarrassed that shiva chastised him in front of everyone then sent kamadev to fill shivas mind with lust but shiva was a true yogi and lust didnt effect him.

It was Inder Dev who sent Kamadev to enduce Shiv Ji into lust. This was because the child born from Shiv Ji and Mata Parbati "Kartikey" was the one destined to kill the rakhsas and return swarag to Inder Dev. Inder Def through inmpatience sent Kamdev to do this task.

 

On 3/2/2020 at 10:56 PM, puzzled said:

Brahma then told shakti to take birth as mata sati, shivas first wife and to seduce shiva and make him into a householder.

No. Sati's love for Shiv JI had nothing to do with ulterior motive. Shiva never became a householder. He is always a jogi/sanyasi.

 

On 3/2/2020 at 10:56 PM, puzzled said:

Another story is that brahma challenged vishnu to see who is more powerful, even though it was vishnu who created brahma!  Shiva turned into his gigantic lingam form, and vishnu and brahma raced towards the lingam to see who reaches there quicker, a long time went past and neither of them could reach the lingam so vishnu gave up and came back, Brahma on the other hand told a massive lotus flower to lie and say that he reached the lingam, the flower lied for brahma and said that he reached the lingam therefore is more powerful than vishnu. Shiva then from his lingam form turned into his fierce rudra form and cursed brahma and the flower for lieing, and told Brahma that for his lies and deceitful ways no one is allowed to worship him. 

This is it.

On 3/2/2020 at 10:58 PM, jkvlondon said:

No the vedas were written by ved vyas in Punjab  a lot later than the so called Brahma spoken word .

Another arse vomit from you. Ved Vyas was the rishi who wrote Mahabharat.

 

 

[chatanga1]

3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I agree. I probably shouldn't have used the term unfortunately. It is what it is. But equally "it" also works against our interests at times in a political and cultural identity sense especially in recent history. The religious and mythological basis of it all is sound as far as I'm concerned, because as you know we were warded off the worship of these gods and beings. That doesn't mean they were worthless or devilish in any way. 

With this it's either 0% or 100% of accpetance of the history. But in this day, we should know how to use this information so we don't veer towards either number.

 

16 minutes ago, puzzled said:

No he knew she was pregnant    he senced it    I read the valmiki version. 

He dumped his pregnant wife 

Guru Sahib in his holy Granth Sri Dasme Patshah ju ka Granth Sahib, does not write that Sri Ram Chander knew anything of Mata Sita expecting a child. Guru Sahib writes that Lord Ram suspected Sita and thus sent her to the forest.

[puzzled]

On 3/8/2020 at 11:13 AM, chatanga1 said:

On 3/2/2020 at 10:56 PM, puzzled said:

But the reason people dont worship brahma in india is because he actually was a very lusty and egotistical devta.

No. This is not the answer. You have actually answered it further in your post.

well with the different puranas there are different versions of the events , but the moral of the story is always the same thing. some later puranas narrate different versions of the same story.  Bhrama not being worshiped and cursed by shiva has 2 or 3 different versions, one of them being that he was lusting over his own daughter sandhya who he created through his mind, hence shiva cut his 5th head of and said no one will worship him,   thats what i meant by no one worshiping him because he was very lusty,   the other version is him cheating when racing to the linga with vishnu,  cant remember which purana narrates which story . 

 

On 3/8/2020 at 11:13 AM, chatanga1 said:

On 3/2/2020 at 10:56 PM, puzzled said:

Brahma being embarrassed that shiva chastised him in front of everyone then sent kamadev to fill shivas mind with lust but shiva was a true yogi and lust didnt effect him.

It was Inder Dev who sent Kamadev to enduce Shiv Ji into lust. This was because the child born from Shiv Ji and Mata Parbati "Kartikey" was the one destined to kill the rakhsas and return swarag to Inder Dev. Inder Def through inmpatience sent Kamdev to do this task.

 one story narrates that brahma created kamdev through his mind after creating sandhya, and after shiva cut brahmas head off brahma sent kamadev to shiva to distract him with kaam but it didn't work.    the story that youve mentioned is shivas and kamadevs 2nd meeting where shiva burns kamadev with his 3rd eye and turns him to ash  and then kamadevs wife rati starts crying etc.

 

On 3/8/2020 at 11:13 AM, chatanga1 said:

On 3/2/2020 at 10:56 PM, puzzled said:

Brahma then told shakti to take birth as mata sati, shivas first wife and to seduce shiva and make him into a householder.

No. Sati's love for Shiv JI had nothing to do with ulterior motive. Shiva never became a householder. He is always a jogi/sanyasi.

after kamadev failed brahma then asked shakti to take birth as a woman and to marry shiva and make him into a householder. mata sati was then born to dakhsha. yes brahma may of had a motive but yeah satis love for shiva was pure and she had no motive. she loved him very much that she even self immolated herself when her father dakhsha insulted shiva and not invite him to the sacrifice. shiva then roamed the earth with his wife mata sati on his shoulder mourning her death,   it was a very pavittar love.

well thats a interesting point because shiva has many layers,  one time he is the destroyer the other a time he is the preserver, one time a yogi the other time a householder with a wife,  he also is shiva as well as shakti  man/woman.        

not sure about his relationship with mata sati, but there is a purana story which narrates shiva and parvati making love on mount kailasha for centuries!  the demons took advantage and started taking the world over and the devte had to snap shiva out of it and remind him of his duty.     

he is quite a multifaceted personality.  

 

nevertheless the stories are really interesting and you can learn from them, i guess one of the reasons why guru sahibs used them as well  as references 

[jkvlondon]

7 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Sri Krishan lied to Arjun about what?

Krishna tells Arjuna in Karna Parva:

I will now tell thee, O son of Pandu, this mystery connected with morality, this mystery that was declared by Bhishma, by the righteous Yudhishthira, by Vidura otherwise called Kshatri, and by Kunti, of great celebrity. I will tell thee that mystery in all its details. Listen to it, O Dhananjaya! One who speaks truth is righteous. There is nothing higher than truth. Behold, however, truth as practised is exceedingly difficult to be understood as regards its essential attributes. Truth may be unutterable, and even falsehood may be utterable where falsehood would become truth and truth would become falsehood. In a situation of peril to life and in marriage, falsehood becomes utterable. In a situation involving the loss of one's entire property, falsehood becomes utterable. On an occasion of marriage, or of enjoying a woman, or when life is in danger, or when one's entire property is about to be taken away, or for the sake of a Brahmana, falsehood may be uttered. These five kinds of falsehood have been declared to be sinless. On these occasions falsehood would become truth and truth would become falsehood. He is a fool that practises truth without knowing the difference between truth and falsehood.

 

 

Bhai Daya Singh told a lie to protect Guru Gobind Singh Ji at Machhiwara. The respected Pir of the Muslims reinforced that same lie by telling the Moghals it was not Guru Sahib.

Technically they said he was 'Ucch da pir' for them he was that , he was their Pir  so was that really a lie or just a declaration of feelings they did not get asked 'is this Guru Gobind SIngh ?' They did that to save their Guru not for their own desires (unlike advice of Krishna)

 

 

 

 

Sri Vishnu and Shiv Ji are not worshipped out of fear. Some aspect of Shiv Ji are worshipped as fearsome ir Rudra, but even that is not the same as fear-based worship. Its still prema bhagti.

vishnu is worshipped widely because people want to be sustained  i.e. kaamna  , needs and desires

Shiva 's wrath is feared so people worship and dedicate their arts to him to placate him so he won't bring about destruction in their lives  or to allow themselves to take on the aggressive traits  for fighting (soldiers and shiv sainiks)

And why is Brahma not worshipped in the same way?

it is a fact that there is only One mandir in whole of India dedicated to Him and that is a definite sign  that there is a disparity in the actual worship .

 

 

 

[chatanga1]

1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

Krishna tells Arjuna in Karna Parva:

I will now tell thee, O son of Pandu, this mystery connected with morality, this mystery that was declared by Bhishma, by the righteous Yudhishthira, by Vidura otherwise called Kshatri, and by Kunti, of great celebrity. I will tell thee that mystery in all its details. Listen to it, O Dhananjaya! One who speaks truth is righteous. There is nothing higher than truth. Behold, however, truth as practised is exceedingly difficult to be understood as regards its essential attributes. Truth may be unutterable, and even falsehood may be utterable where falsehood would become truth and truth would become falsehood. In a situation of peril to life and in marriage, falsehood becomes utterable. In a situation involving the loss of one's entire property, falsehood becomes utterable. On an occasion of marriage, or of enjoying a woman, or when life is in danger, or when one's entire property is about to be taken away, or for the sake of a Brahmana, falsehood may be uttered. These five kinds of falsehood have been declared to be sinless. On these occasions falsehood would become truth and truth would become falsehood. He is a fool that practises truth without knowing the difference between truth and falsehood.

 

And what is wrong with that? Its exactly the same situation that Guru Sahib and the Sikhs faced in Macchiwara.

You've answered one of my many questions addressed directly to you. And proved yourself to be as I say. Try answering the others, if you have the courage to do so.

You, are the biggest perpetrater of false information on this forum. You should be under approval for your posts because they are just venomous and designed to incalculate hate against others.

[jkvlondon]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

 

And what is wrong with that? Its exactly the same situation that Guru Sahib and the Sikhs faced in Macchiwara.

You've answered one of my many questions addressed directly to you. And proved yourself to be as I say. Try answering the others, if you have the courage to do so.

You, are the biggest perpetrater of false information on this forum. You should be under approval for your posts because they are just venomous and designed to incalculate hate against others.

lying to enjoy a woman or keep property is NOT the same as saving your Guru by omitting the details of his name...

 

[chatanga1]

1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

lying to enjoy a woman or keep property is NOT the same as saving your Guru by omitting the details of his name...

Who said it was the same?

You have tried to list 5 examples of what you call deceit, and I have shown you that one of the very same examples was practiced by the Sikhs.

You have, with your false information tried to portray Sri Krishna as some kind deviant, and I have told you that in one of those examples you cite, the Sikhs did exactly the same, as did the Pir, to save any harm coming to Guru Sahib.

Now let's hear why you are calling Guru Gobind Singh Ji a liar on those other points I have raised.