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She should have an angry look on her face at all times, and be rude to everyone who speaks to her. That'll stop people from bothering her.

Punjab Times Issue No 2351 27th Jan 2011 Page 4

Mod Note: The follow thread has been allowed to stay up but it does not represent FACT, the posters has specified throughout the response that they obtained this information from a third party and therefore its validity should be taken therefore as such. Personal references and attacks have been removed or edited to remain in the spirit of why this thread was started. Please refrain from making personal attacks and posting up personal information as it will be removed and aim to stick to the topic at hand. Dear Sangat I attended the gurdwara on Wellington Road Dudley today and was disgusted with what is going on in this gurdwara and the continous behadbi that is being sponsored by the committee and the trustees. The stage secretary Jasbir Singh Rai (MOD EDIT), Piara Singh Purewal (MOD EDIT) and Ajit Singh (MOD EDIT) and Darshan Singh Atwal (MOD EDIT) have all decided that they are willing to remortgage the gurdwara in order to to extend the party hall in order to attract more parties at the community centre in front of the gurdwara. (removed by mod) This is disgusting in a previous year some people slept in the gurdwara as they were too drunk to drive home (edited) Peope like this should be on a banned list and should not be allowed to run gurdwaras and I hope the campaign to stop gurdwara party halls takes action on this !! wjkwjf

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa. Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh. As a scientist, I have learned that following a protocol (exactly) is very important - otherwise, an experiment does not work. For example, if one forgets to add TEMED to a polyacrylamide gel, it does not solidify (for those familiar with Western blotting). Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us a protocol to follow when conducting an Amrit Sanchar. The most central part of this protocol is the actual preparation of Amrit, which is prepared by Panj Piare (Amritdhari, Rehat-following Singhs) who take turns to recite the following Banis in their entirety: Japji Sahib, Jaap Sahib, Tvai Prasad Swaiye, Chaupai Sahib (up to ...Gobind Das Tuhaar), and Anand Sahib (40 Pauris). Details are important. If one leaves out part of a Bani, then the protocol has not been followed properly and the experiment (making Amrit) fails. When I took Amrit last year, the Panj Piare did not read the five Banis in their entirety (they left out the last part of Chaupai Sahib from Kripa Kari Hum Par Jag Mata...). This was because the Panj Piare followed the SGPC Maryada when preparing Amrit (my worst nightmare). (I signed up for an Amrit Sanchar in another city because there are never Amrit Sanchars where I live.) Because they did not read the five Banis in their entirety, I feel that I never took Amrit. I've felt that all year (it's not a very happy feelings). The Panj Piare also did not give us the whole Mool Mantar (only up to Gurprasad). I've kept the Rehat of Nitnem, Kakaars, etc. But I have erred in eating (I ate Doritos, M&Ms, stuff with glycerin - I was not familiar with the origin of a lot of ingredients at the time, but I've learned from my mistakes and I only eat sukki roti with dahin now ... sometimes with saag.) So I believe I have to appear in front of the Panj Piare for these mistakes. But I'm confused because I feel I never actually took Amrit in the first place. (I wish I could ask Giani Thakur Singh Ji about this.) So I was thinking of retaking Amrit from the beginning (to get Amrit that contains the five Banis in their entirety and to get the whole Mool Mantar up to Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach). Does anyone know if anyone has ever taken Amrit using SGPC Maryada and then retaken it (from the beginning) using Taksali Maryada? Thanks. (And I don't want to start some sort of crazy debate. I would prefer if like-minded Taksali folks commented (and SGPCers kept their distance).)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! As a member of the dudley Sangat I agree there are certain problems with the Gurdwara committee, especially in transparency. They make alot of questionable decisions that I do not understand, which really do annoy me. REGARDING THE SIKH CULTURAL CENTRE WELLINGTON ROAD - DUDLEY I do NOT believe this centre should be shut down. The committee should bring the centre into the Akal Takhats Maryada by stopping meat and alcohol parties. Secondly, the committee should NOT burden the sangat with further loans to extend the centre. There is absoloutely no need for this to happen, and it boils my blood to see such a stupid decision being made. I believe these 2 points need to be addressed very quickly. However, when used correctly this Cultural Centre is a positive asset to the further the Sikh Religion in our area and educate the youth. The centre holds karate lessons weekly where up to 15-20 young Sikhs learn karate. It has in the past also been used as a place where older youths get together and discuss Sikh related matters. There should actually be no problem in using the Centre to hold celebrations which do not include meat, sharab or tobacco for the local sangat as a cheap alternative to more expensive halls. However this should only happen after strict controls and systems are in place to ensure there is no meat, sharab or no cigarettes being smoked in or around the premises. Finally, the centre also has a small Gym which includes weights, Guru Angad Ji himself encouraged attaching a building to every gurdwara where wrestling and other physical events should take place, so again, closing the centre down should not be on the agenda, only stopping the activities that cause beadbi and not increasing or enlarging the building with further loans. Forgive me if I have said anything wrong Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Its all true i'm afraid I'm from dudley and ashamed of the centre however the trustees and the commitee can say anything on the stage and in front of maharaj di saroop and the sangat believe them !!

I hear the committee have taken off the "Sikh Cultural Centre" sign from the party hall, which can be seen in Post #3 of this thread. Apparently, they are trying to make the claim that the Gurdwara does not own the hall, and it is not linked to the Gurdwara. These tricks will not fool the Sangat. The charity accounts clearly show that the hall belongs to the Gurdwara, and it is part of the same charity. I also heard that they said in the Diwan yesterday that parties will carry on regardless, and they will not stop. I really hope this is not true and I heard wrong. :umm:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Many thanks Please note our new number is 07932 820200. A Sevadaar will contact Bhai Ajit Singh. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh Recently on one of the Sikh Radio Channels i heard a Shej Paath were a Gursikh Was saying a line of Bani, and then the sangat was repeating it. (studio recording) Does anybody know where i can download this from? Or any other Shej Paath which daas can repeat.

only Gurujee is beautiful

Sahib Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Jee de parkash divas diyaan sabh nu lakh lakh vadhaiyaan (Jan 31st)

As a fellow "western-blotter" I can sympathise with the constant micro pipetting :rolleyes: On the other side I wouldn't matter too mcuh about stuff in your ingredients, yes by all means try your hardest but I assure you, you won't be able to eat within rehit (i.e. no animal products) unless you keep some sort of bibek like making your own food and not eating from shops. On the taksali side of life, if you feel that way about your amrit sanchaar then you should go to panj pyaare and consult them, although it doesn't necessarily have to be a taksali amrit sanchaar just one where pooran nitnem is read. Saying that I've heard that Leicester amrit sanchaars are taksali-fied.

First page of this thread is just sad to read.. fighting over which amrit saanchar is better etc.. no wonder why there is no progress in our society..

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ Ny 1 got Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Dasam Granth Maharaj Bani in PDF format or available on the computer? Thanks In Advance

more info to back up what im saying EDL man's home 'targeted by shotgun-wielding attacker'

Im not here to convert ppl to follow teh edl, just reporting what happend and i was right. listen to him here :excl: http://audioboo.fm/boos/264249-senior-edl-leader-kevin-carroll-speaks-exclusively-to-bbc-three-counties-about-the-attack-on-him owned

The Rehat Pyari Mukh Ko is a separate (excellent) Katha. (And everyone should listen to it.) But I was referring to another Katha. Here's how to find the Rehat Maryada (Gurbani Paath Darpan) Katha: gurbaniupdesh.org --> MP3 Downloads --> Katha --> Giani Thakur Singh Ji --> Rehat Maryada (But the gurbaniupdesh.org website seems to be down....hopefully it'll be up soon.)

It's from the awesome "Sri Akaal Ustat", one of the first banis in Sri Dasam Granth.

What are the committee even thinking? They should be ashamed of themselves for misusing the Gurooghar and the Sangats money for their own manmati pleasures! Have they no fear of Guroo Jee?

this pothi is being translated into english it is currently in progress should be awsome once it is in english then a lot more sangat can benefit from it

Gurbani says: Nanak Bramh Giani Aap Parmesur. (Bramh Giani is God - because they have won the game of life and merged with God.) Bramh Giani Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa wrote out the Rehat Maryada very clearly: http://www.rajkarega...path-darpan.pdf You can also get it in 'book' form - it's called Gurbani Paath Darpan. This book even explains how the Sikh Panth deviated from Guru Gobind SIngh Ji's started Maryada - from cutting Rehras Sahib to disowning Raagmala....it contains very enlightening bachan. Alternatively (if you have trouble reading Punjabi), you can listen to 'Rehat Maryada' Katha by Giani Thakur Singh Ji (they read this book and also talk about their own experiences). You should check it out (especially the Amrit Sanchar part) - Panj Piare give Amrit, Gurmantar, Mool Mantar, Rehat. (There is no mention of a special, separate Naam Drir.) And I agree with the person who posted earlier - one should do some research before showing up for an Amrit Sanchar - find out the protocols they follow (I totally regret not doing this). And even when re-taking Amrit, make sure you do research as well (to make sure the protocols are consistent).

what a load of rubbish! So does this mean that the thousands of Sikhs who daily go to gurdwaras worldwide and bow their head to Guru Granth Sahib, which isnt larivaar, they really aint? They just bowing to some book? Larivar doesnt make Guru, Guru, anymore than 5ks make someone a Sikh. if larivar is the only saroop, then what have the hundreds of gurdwaras around the world got in them? This is no way means that we shouldnt have larivar at all, but larivar saroops is something that we have to build up to slowly, cos we have done to much damage first, but we will, Akal Sahai, rectify that. But in the meantime, to say that only Larivar is accepted in stupid. and ignorant.

Are we doing that much shanka that all of us havent taken amrit? Taksal - larevaar Saroop, Nihang Dals - Larevaar Saroop What about - Mool Mantar Gurmantar Kakkars Correct Gurbani We tend to forget all these thing aswell, and all the other maryadas that are passed down but are not advertised. This topic is going way off topic and it seemed its confusing the sangat and also possibly making some insecure to wether they have taken amrit or not. Wherever you do decide to take amrit, please do some research and please please do not after question the amrit. But make sure before hand everything is correct, to prevent these shankas and everything highlighted in this thread coming up.

Your right, Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj said read the five Banis then the Punj Pyare must do it; meaning all of Sri Chaupai Sahib. To get your questions and doubts answered ask from your local Gurdwara to speak with a Taksal Gursikh or Nihang Singh. They can surely answer your questions.

Just because a member has a problem with Taksal shouldn't mean Sikhs should shy away from giving Taksal the credit they deserve. It is because of the Taksal with the Akaali Nihang Singhs that Sikhi is alive today. Sikhi rides on their shoulders and whoever is not greatful of their contribution does not deserve anyone's time. The Taksal in the late 70s and early 80s woke up the Khalsa Panth to the slavery that was around their necks. There is more to be said, but its going off topic. The Singhs that are Gursikh, is where Satguru's Amrit should be taken. Taksal rehat is above and beyond, which means these Gursikhs have to have strong rehat and have high jeevans. This does not mean other Gursikhs out of this jatha don't exist or are not proper, but they are hard to find and then to get five Gursikhs, is much harder to call in. The Taksal are available and visible in the Panth, so it's no suprise that people ask for them. There are other jathas that have just as much pyare as the Taksal out their for Guru Sahib, but the topic has kind of drifted off on to the Taksal. So there was somethings that needed to be cleared up here.

Interesting stuff. I wasn't exactly focusing on the organizations (as I think I made it seem) - I was focusing more on the science (the protocols and procedures). My main concern was 'the preparation of the Amrit'. Amrit belongs to Guru (as someone said earlier) and Guru Ji told us that Amrit must be prepared by reading the 5 Banis. When I took Amrit, the 5 Banis were not read in their entirety (the SGPC Maryada actually says that Chaupai Sahib should be read up till Dust Dokh Te Leho Bachaee...no further). Thus, the 5 Banis were not read (entirely) when preparing Amrit. I know that Taksal reads all 5 Banis in their entirety when preparing Amrit. So I just wanted the full 5 Bani Amrit like Guru Ji intended us to take. Panj Piare also give us Gurmantar and Mool Mantar. I received Gurmantar....but I did not receive the full Mool Mantar (and | know that Taksali Panj Piare would give the whole Mool Mantar). I was also given a less strict Rehat - only read 3 Banis in the morning (Japji Sahib, Jaap Sahib, Tve Prasad Swaiye), eat meat as long as it's not Halaal, etc. So I wanted the more strict Taksali Rehat from the Panj Piare. That is why I was thinking of retaking Amrit (to get the full 5 Bani Amrit, full Mool Mantar, and strict Rehat). My only question was whether anyone had heard of anyone retaking Amrit (from the beginning)... Anyways - it's okay - thank you for your inputs. (And to re-emphasize - I was focusing on protocols and procedures, not organizations/jathebandis.)

No one is saying taksal is the purest form of sikhi. The purest is those brahm gianis that become one with akaal purkh, no matter which jathebandi they belong to. Taksal have tried to keep as much as possible the full rehat maryada of guru sahib, arths, santhia, shudhta, saud and throughout the times placed there heads at the charan of sri guru ram das jee and given many many shaheedia for the kaum and done immense parchar, amrit sanchaars and helped sangat on their journey towards our satguru sahib jee Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj. The amount of parchar done by the jathedars of the taksal is amasing. Fateh

Fateh, The jathebandia did not agree with the maryada in the 1930s and left the meetings.

I was thinking of asking the Panj Piare as well. (I'm scared to death though - Panj Piare are Guru Roop.) I was also hoping that someone out there knew someone (or had heard of someone) who had taken Amrit using SGPC Maryada first... and then re-taken it using Taksali Maryada. (Or would I be the first one? :6 ) You are lucky to have access to Taksali Panj Piare. I wish I lived in the UK (I live in Ontario, Canada - far away from Toronto). But there is an Amrit Sanchar in Toronto on Feb 26 at Malton Gurughar (by students of Damdami Taksal I believe). I was also thinking further of my situation. The Panj Piare gave me the SGPC Rehat (we were told we only need to read 3 banis in the morning, etc. etc.). This Rehat also allows eating of animals and animal products as long as they are not prepared in the Muslim way. It also states that if you commit a Kurehat unintetionally, it doesn't count. (I'm in no way saying that this is right - but this is the Rehat I was given by the Panj Piare). So based on the SGPC Rehat Maryada (which I was given), I'm not a Kurehtiya... ....But that doesn't really get me anywhere. So the plan is this: With Guru Ji's Kirpa, I will present myself to the Panj Piare and ask them if I can retake Amrit (prepared with 5 Banis recited in their entirety) and receive the whole Mool Mantar/proper Rehat. But thanks for your input folks. If there is still someone out there who can answer my main question, please let me know. (Or if someone could ask Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Giani Thakur Singh Ji for me - that would be awesome as well.) PS - In one Katha (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Katha), Giani Thakur Singh Ji says that if you received Amrit from a woman Panj Piara (Singhni), your Amrit doesn't count and you should retake it. VJKK. VJKF.

bhai sahib jeo/penji. Amrit is of guru sahib and not of a specific jatha or organisation. If you have issues, please visit somewhere where you know the rehat will be strong and strict and then follow it, with satguru granth sahib jees kirpa Penji the singhs do seva on a few occasions throughout the year, mainly at the barsi but hopefully soon with guru jees kirpa there will be more smagams like this. If anyone wants to book an international one in europe then please pm me.

Vaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh The best (and only thing which I think you can do) is to go and talk to the Panj Piareh yourself. You won't find your answers on the net and especially not on a forum. I just got back from a Keertan Smagam in Germany today and there was an Amrit Sanchar yesterday organised by students from Damdami Taksal. I've had a lot of questions in my mind lately and after the Amrit Sanchar others were allowed to come into the room after the Amrit Sanchar and hear the Rehat. I realised that this is my chance to speak directly with the Panj Piare. They were very humbly and I got all the answers to my questions. I asked one of the Singh's who did Seva in Panj Piare when the next Amrit Sanchar is and he said they only do one Amrit Sanchar a year in the UK at Sant Baba Thakur Singh Jee's Barsi in December. He said they can arrange one if Sangat wants it but if you find out that there's an Amrit Sanchar earlier this year in the UK organised by Damdami Taksal please let me know. Vaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh

I understand Giani Sukha Singh Ji goes to this Gurdwara, and he was even a Granthi there, but the Sikhi principles he does parchaar of means the committee now see him as a threat and try to reduce his influence amongst the youth.

its true that muslims hire the hall out. moreso hindus than muslims, my gujerati friend got married there last year. yeah apparently they have just submitted plans, i heard that too. they want to extend the upstairs function room of the hall apparently, to attract bigger parties. Its crap though, nobody would wanna get married there

Is this the midlands Gurdwara which hires their hall for Muslim Walimah type parties? I met a Singh (can't remember his name now) a few weeks back who told me that a midlands Gurdwara were taking advantage of the local muslim population's need for a cheap hall for their parties. Sounds like it may be Dudley Gurdwara then? Funnily enough, he said the mosque does not provide the party facilities for the local Muslim community.

I've heard from someone that the committee have just submitted plans (costing £5,000) to the local council for the extension, part of which includes another separate hall so that Muslims can also hire the hall out. Is this true?

You can order books for free from http://www.gurukhoj.com/ and also read up http://www.akj.org/skins/one/literature.php . There there is http://www.gurmatbibek.com/pages.php?id=3 , http://www.gurmatbibek.com/pages.php?id=4 . I read "In Search of the True Guru" which is autobiography of Bhai Rama Singh jee, and Jail Chithiyaan which us autobiography of Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh jee. You should also read Se Kinehiya which is about the life of Baba Harnam Singh jee Rampur Kheda waale, which you can read at this link along with other books: http://www.sikhroots.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=73&Itemid=76 . Some of these books can be listened in audio format as well at http://www.ikatha.com/index.php?q=f&f=/Audio_Books , http://www.akj.org/skins/one/new_ki.php?p=misc&ba=1&b=&id=16 , http://www.akj.org/skins/one/new_ki.php?p=misc&ba=1&b=&id=15 .

Lol, im from dudley, and i know this hall and temple. ive been to loads of parties there and everything you say is right,. its shameful. one of my cousins got married there, and we were doing the catering ourselves, and we asked them for some pots and pans at the start of the party, and the man looked in the kitchen and said there werent any, so he said he would go to the temple to get some. i was ashamed as this was going to be used to cook the lamb in. he was even told about it and brushed it off, and went and got them for us. reminding us to return them later! my grandad knows these people well, and he told me recently that the man who did this is now the president of the temple. what a disgrace. im not a turban wearing sikh or anything but i know that this is incorrect. i even told the guys that were caretaking the hall during the party that its wrong that a temple hall should be having meat and alcohol served in it. friends of mine tell me that there are some young guys who tried to get involved and sort stuff out there, bringing in the youth but the older lot pushed them out. im guessing that the older people he was talking about are the ones this thread mentions, MOD EDITED

this will be a hard one as Dudley Gurdwara has a history of manmat and anti gurmat marahda the gurdwara is basically being run by oldies who run it like a club based on friendship and dirty politice and do not allow real guru sikhs and the youth to be given a voice. These people are only interested in the centre and once that is closed for parties they will probably leave the gurdwara all together as they have little interest in promoting sikhi.The whole thing needs to be looked at and the pakandi amridharies really need to be exposed. They think by changing the name of the centre and sign outside the centre will be sufficient to carry on this activity. The building is owned the gurdwara and sometimes you get higher attendances at the parties than the gurdwara itself and people oftern come into the gurdwara before and after the party so have had meat and and sharab before they come and on occasion this has been members of the gurdwara committee.

Given what seems to be apparent success with RST, maybe people can again try the polite approach here and hopefully have a similar effect?

Quick Google map exercise show's that this "cultural" centre is simply opposite the Guru Nanak Singh Sabha Gurdwara. Perhaps Dudley Singh can advise if the Committee have ever been made aware of the Akal Takht Sandesh or whether the local sangat have managed to lobby the Committee to stop allowing meat, alcohol and parties on site? Taking on another bank loan/mortgage is likely to end up being used as a justifiable financial excuse by the committee to further perpetrate the immoral activities allowed in the cultural centre. So it's imperative that the Sangat act fast. There is no need to re-mortgage the Gurdwara property if the the Gurdwara committee are currently able to meet it's moral obligation to Gurmat and Sikh Maryada. If the committee want to create a debt with the bank just to back up their own Manmat, then we, as the Sangat roop, need to act asap.

This is another issue that needs to be raised with the Satkaar Group and we need to support them in taking the appropriate action to get this matter resolved as they have successfully stopped this at other gurdwara. But the problem highlights how much of a problem we have in our gurdwara and shows how deep routed it is.

Fateh all, It's good that people taking interest in Beadbi issues, especially party halls. However, parties have been happening at Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Graham Street, Birmingham for at least 10 years - way before Edinburgh and Grays. Committee promotes them. All Committee cares about is money - they charge £700 a party, money goes to Gurdwara and you get drunks going through the Gurdwara car park. They even held a Sikh Channel "National Panth Time" there with all the so-called big-time Sikh leaders, and no-one raised a voice of objection. Most of local Sangat is apathetic nowadays. Some Singhs tried to stop it a few years ago, but they weren't enough in number and they backed off after the Committee accused them having issues against the Ramgarhia caste. I'm Ramgarhia myself, but the rest of Sangat who I speak with are not willing to act. It's time national Sangat dealt with this issue.

There seems to be a major lack of respect for Sikhi from the majority of Ramgaria sangat. The older men in this caste seem to only want to be half sirdar. I know 35+ Ramgaria men with turbans but trimmed beards. It's not right guys especially when your over the agesof 50 your senior figures of our Sikhi com so portray the full image and show the younger generations how it's done.

I don't understand how a sikh could partake in this beadbi. The gianis who readily allow this are prostituting themselves for money and nothing less.

I've just called and can confirm that when i tried to book the hall for a party i was told to come to the Gurdwara or call tommorrow between 7 and 8pm. I then asked the gentlemen, if i was to book the hall would meat/alcohol be barred (not allowed)? The gentlemen said - "no, not at all...you can eat meat, drink alcohol and do bhangra to your hearts content here" The most ironic thing is that guys first word when he spoke to me was...Vaheguroo

As the subject has now been brought up, the Sikh residents of Birmingham will be well aware of the Jassa Singh Ramgharia Hall around the corner from the main Gurdwara Darbar Sahib in the city centre. I suppose rather than needing pictures, just call the Gurdwara on 0121 236 5435. Ask for a booking for a party in the Hall and ask them if meat, alcohol is allowed. You'll get your proof, the committee don't hide the fact that they allow all these anti Sikh activities on their property named after a mahan Gursikh panthic icon like dhan dhan Baba Jassa Singh Ramgharia. It's hypocrisy at it's worst and certainly needs addressing. Maybe its time for UK sangat to focus on taking this one forward. Don't drag this one out by asking for "proof" etc, it's open knowledge. Ask anyone in Bham or visit the Hall on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday evening when a party is going on. These activities at Ramgharia Gurdwara, Graham St, Birmingham do need addressing, partcularly as the committee project themselves forward on many panth related situations on the Sikh Channel.

gurcharan bahra main secretary jaspal virdi they available 7- 8.00 on friday evenings 01212332647

well bhai Sahib i think youve been blessed with the Seva of getting contact numbers getting address writting cover letters if you could provide pictures of the halls so we can take this further Ramgarhia Sikh Temple Birmingham B1 3LA >Tel: 0121 236 5435

Any photos? Evidence...?