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Your personal example doesn't detract from the fact that a lot of ignorant haughtiness has emanated from jat quarters for a good while now and has had extremely negative consequences for wider Sikh society. On top of this is the alcoholic, barn dancing jamboree culture which has spread to nonjat Sikhs due to majority influence, wherever jats picked that up from. It's harder and harder for the caste loving jat to act pompous because, as someone alluded to earlier, they've got serious drug and economic problems which makes grinning, self congratulatory prancing around about your caste and ability to drink copious amounts of alcohol look seriously demented. Maybe certain people need to take it as a hint from Waheguru to try and humble themselves a bit? In Jaap Sahib Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Waheguru the epithet 'Garb Gunjan' meaning 'destroyer of false pride'. There are important lessons in that.

According to my mum, my dad speaks a random foreign language in his sleep. Like Tamil or Bengali. But he doesn't know these languages, he has a hard time speaking English. L0L0L0L0L0L

I too am vehemently against such tendencies. I've stated before, one of the most profound things that weaned me away from this was an interaction with dasmesh pita's Akaal Ustat, which uncompromisingly tears apart any notion of Waheguru or dharam being somehow 'owned' or solely belonging to any particular group/faith. I come from a Singh Sabha background myself in terms of literary influences and interpretations of faith and used to be quite narrow minded in terms of interpretations outside of this. I have to say, freeing my mind from such judgmental shackles is one of the greatest things to happen to me. You simply can't see reality when you've blinkered yourself along the lines of ANY particular group. That just leads to the most gross, unsophisticated petty mindedness which looks even worse coming from someone aligning themselves to a religious identity. All groups have their positives and negatives, we can learn from all. The tendency to try and 'monopolise' the truth is pathetic, but sadly seems to be a very common human instinct across religions. In terms of our spiritual beliefs, we should aim higher than being members of some exclusive/elitist groups who are sole custodians of sat. That's most often a stumbling at the first hurdle where people have turned their endeavours at dharam into some ego fueling mechanism.

Punjabi culture got no art (i am talking about our time not grandfathers time). Most of our non-religious youth or folks are extremely turning/adopting ghetto culture. Can you imagine or do you see our people into classical musical stuff? I never been to any of our relatives parties, marriage and other functions where the atmosphere is relaxing with non-beat music playing around, say Beethoven/Mozart? Honey rapper is there because of demand from our own people.

http://panthic.org/articles/5483 PANTHIC.ORG | Published on December 30, 2012 SAN FRANCISCO (KP) - Sarbjit Dhunda, the controversial missionary preacher, who not long ago was summoned and reprimanded by Sri Akal Takht Sahib for making derogatory statements about Gurbani kirtan recited at Sri Darbar Sahib, Amritsar, has again become the center of controversy as he continues to malign and distort the sacred Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji enshrined in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.On February of 2012, Sarbjit Dhunda appeared at Sri Akal Takht Sahib in front of the five Singh Sahibans and asked for forgiveness for his transgression. According to Giani Gurbachan Singh, the current installed Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, Dhunda assured the Singh Sahibans that he would refrain from making such remarks in the future. Dhunda has also denied being the voice behind the an older video posted on YouTube by his own cohorts in which he is clearly heard making insulting remarks on the verses of Sri Jaap Sahib. News Coverage on Dhunda's Punishment in February 2012 In return for his appearance, Dhunda received a mild “tankhah” (religious penance) for the sacrilegious remarks about Sri Darbar Sahib Kirtan, but no less than four months later he again restarted to spew venom against the sacred Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and in a June 5th speech at Nagpur, Maharashtra, he claimed that kirtanees in the Sikh Panth are continually violating the Sikh Rahit Maryada by reciting verses from Sri Dasam Granth. "ਉਸੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ) ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਅਜ ਸਾਡੇ ਰਾਗੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਮਜਬੂਰੀ ਵੀ ਬਣ ਗਈ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਬਹੁਤ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਲੈਕੇ…ਸਿੱਖ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਿਯਾਦਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਬਕਾਇਦਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਗੋਦ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠ ਕੇ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਤਿੰਨ ਰਚਨਾਵਾ ਦਾ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ - ਇਕ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ - ਇਕ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਬਿੱਤ ਵਾਰਾਂ ਦਾ - ਇਕ ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਗਜ਼ਲਾਂ ਦਾ, ਤਿੰਨ, ਏਸ ਤੋਂ ਇਲਾਵਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਰਚਨਾ ਦਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕਰਨਾ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਉਲਟ ਹੈ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ ਸ਼ਰਿਆਮ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ, ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀ ਕਿਥੋਂ ਕਿਥੋਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ…ਕੀ ਸਿੱਖ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਿਯਾਦਾ ਦੀ ਉਲੰਘਣਾ ਨਹੀ?" – Sarbjit Dhunda (June 5th, 2012 – Nagpur) Dhunda claims that the Sikh Rahit Maryada only allows recitation of verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Kabits/Vaars, and Bhai Nand Lal Ji’s Gazals during kirtan. Dhunda, who often ridicules and chides other kathakars as being “ਗਪੌੜੀ ਸਾਧ”, shows his true colors by distorting and twisting the wording in the 'Kirtan' section of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. The actual statement is as follows: ਕੀਰਤਨ : (ੲ) ਸੰਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕੇਵਲ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਜਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਵਿਆਖਿਆ-ਸਰੂਪ ਰਚਨਾ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਤੇ ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸਿੱਖ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਯਾਦਾ) Nowhere is it mentioned in the Sikh Rahit Maryada that only Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji can be recited – in fact – only the word “ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ” is used as the condition. According to the Mahan Kosh (The Encyclopedia of Sikhism), Gurbani connotes to the Sacred Bani revealed by the various Roops of SatGuru Nanak Dev Ji to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ : ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਅਤੇ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਰੂਪ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ (ਮਹਾਨ ਕੋਸ਼) For centuries, the sacred Gurbani revealed by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji has been recited at all Sikh Takhts, and Gurdwara Sahibs, never has anyone questioned the validity of this recitation.Disparaging Remarks on Sikh National Anthem In another video, at a different venue, Sarbjit Dhunda claims that the well-known Gurbani verses “ਦੇਹ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਟਰੋਂ ॥“, which are often referred to as the “Sikh National Anthem”, are not the work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and that these verses promote the worship of Hindu deity Shiv Ji. The above comments illustrate Dhunda’s utter lack of understanding the depth of Guru Sahib's Divine Gurbani - this is not at all surprising since this Dhunda barely has a high-school education, and despite having no higher-level education, he continues to refer to himself as a "professor". Had Dhunda spent some time reciting and studying Gurbani, he would not be making these foolish claims. Guru Gobind Singh Ji clearly declares in Beni Chaupai: ਤਾ ਕੌ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਹਨ ਅਨੁਮਾਨਤ ॥ਮਹਾ ਮੂੜ੍ਹ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ॥ The great fool thinks that God is a stone. But he does not know the difference between the two. ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਕੋ ਕਹਤ ਸਦਾ ਸਿਵ ॥ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਕਾ ਚੀਨਤ ਨਹਿ ਭਿਵ ॥੬॥ He continues calling Mahadev as the Eternal God (Shiv). But he does not know the secrets of the Formless God. (Benti Chaupai – P:10) Furthermore, Guru Arjan Dev Sahib Ji reveals in Raag Todee: ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਹਾਟਿਓ।। ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਏ ਦਇਆਲਾ ਸਿਵ ਕੈ ਬਾਣਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਕਾਟਿਓ ॥੧॥ The Supreme Lord has become merciful; with Lord's arrow, He has sliced off his head. ||1|| Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji reveals in Raag Ramkali: ਸਿਵ ਨਗਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਅਉਧੂ ਅਲਖੁ ਅਗੰਮੁ ਅਪਾਰੀ ॥੮॥ (ਮ:੧) The true hermit obtains a seat in the City of God, the invisible, inaccessible, infinite. ||8|| According to Dhunda's logic, even the verses in Guru Granth Sahib are promoting the worship of deity Shiva. It would not be surprising for Dhunda to eventually raise that as an issue. On stage Dhunda has routinely ridiculed various Gurmat traditions and practices such as Simran and Naam-Abhyiaas, yet when he was confronted in Calgary and Toronto by pro-Panthic individuals, he shamelessly claimed that he believed in the concept of Naam-Simran, Amritvela, and Gurmantar and had no issues with Dasam Bani. Yet, his venomous sermons on stage prove otherwise. Strict Action Needed by Sri Akal Takht Sahib Even after appearing at Sri Akal Takht, Sarbjit Dhunda has not stopped disparaging and distorting the sacred Bani of the Guru Gobind Singh Ji – it is high time for the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib to give Dhunda a final warning that either he cease and desist from his heretical sermons or face the same fate as the likes of Gurbakhsh Kala-Afghana, and Ragi Darshan. Dhunda’s latest disparaging remarks about the sacred Gurbani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji are nothing more than a feeble attempt by this lunatic to win back sympathy from some of his former cohorts who abandoned him after he appeared at Sri Akal Takht Sahib. They had chided him for recognizing the authority of Jathedars and succumbing to the beliefs and traditions followed by rest of the Panth. It is the duty of the entire Sikh community to keep the pressure on our Panthic institutions so heresy by troublemakers such as Dhunda does not go unnoticed and unpunished. Additionally, a keen eye must be kept on those who continue to promote and sponsor him during his trips abroad - as they are directly responsible for creating divisions amongst the Sikh diaspora. Sarbjit Dhunda's Remarks on the Sacred Nitnem Bani - Sri Jaap Sahib: Sarbjit Dhunda's Derogetory Remarks on Sri Darbar Sahib Kirtan: Related Articles: Sarbjit Dhunda Insults Sri Darbar Sahib Kirtan - Now Backtracks on Jaap Sahib www.panthic.org/articles/5402 Sarbjit Dhunda Apologized to Sikh Panth at Sri Akal Takht www.panthic.org/articles/5414 Over 100 Sikh Institutions Request Akal Takht Strict Action Against Dhunda www.panthic.org/articles/5413 Dhunda Summoned to Sri Akal Takht Sahib over Derogatory Remarks on Sri Darbar Sahib Kirtan www.panthic.org/articles/5405

I agree. Our youth - and the subsequent people they grow up to be - are very one-dimensional when it comes to the arts. Whenever someone expresses an interest a field which doesn't fit into the modern, narrow Panjabiyat interpretation of what a Panjabi person be interested in, he or she is derided as a "gora" or a coconut. Then there's the flip side where some youth develop this strange sub-Jamaican patois despite probably never having come across a Jamaican in their life, lol.

Haha you think i am a bhappa? For your info, I was born into a jatt family. But i am proud to say that I lost that caste distinction when with Guru jees apaar kirpa I took amrit and joined the Khalsa brotherhood. The reason I mentioned the kanjar connection to bhangra is when some jatts here began to claim that bhangra was some how an authentic part of the old jatt culture which of course is a myth. Sadly this transition from the old jatt culture to the modern semi kanjar culture happaned around the time of the partition. Things still were not this bad until the sikh immigrants in the uk took kanjar culture to a whole new level to the modern bhangra culture we see today that is falsely being called authentic jat culture. Ask your grand parents and they will also confirm what i say. Jatt women during olden times had some sharam. They would never shamelessly dance infront of men like the modern jattis do on the dance floor. During olden times it was kanjris who did this and that too for money. But the modern jatti has lost all sharam and she will do this for free! And beghairat are the men who allow their wife, sister and daughter to dance around like this in front of other men. If this is the state of jatt culture now, I shudder think how low jatt culture will go in the next 50 years.

Muslims and Christians love to play the 'they're not one of us' card everytime it comes to saving face. 'Oh we didnt fly those planes into those buildings, they werent real Muslims' or 'We didnt kill all those third worlders, the killers aren't Christian' are convenient cop-outs from people used to passing the buck. If you were truly Sikh you would know that this isnt the Sikh way. Just because some Sikhs decide to say others arent Sikhs doesnt change a thing. It wont stop them from feeling Sikh, it wont stop them from calling themself Sikh and it wont stop them being seen as a Sikh. This Spartan-esque attitude of cutting out people as outsiders and then trying to ignore the issue just causes the problem to fester and take more Sikhs down a dark path.

Who here is angry? I just stated the facts. Todays jatt culture is nothing like the jatt culture of pre partition Punjab. One might say that thé modern jatt culture has evovled into a semi kanjar culture. They proudly dance as kanjars once did. Jattis today dance on the dance floor during marriages and other occasions with other men as kanjris once did. The reason we no longer see this connection is because most of the Kanjar community moved to Pakistan since most of them were Muslim. Also judging from your post it seems have been offended by the term kanjar because in east punjab many people use the term kanjar in an insulting way like how we call someone a chuhra if he is dark coloured. But in pre partition Punjab they were an actual caste of people. Like thé marasees they were entertainers. While the profession of the marasees was to entertain by singing, the kanjars would entertain by dancing. The kanjars were pioneers of bhangra. When they would dance infront of jatts, they would make moves which reminded the jatts of farming and jatts would feel entertained looking at the kanjar dance i.e. Bhangra

"It's like when anything good is done by apnay we run to label it 'Sikh' when apnay do gundh like this we slyly start trying to shake off responsibility by making it a 'Panjabi' or 'Indian' issue". Very good point. I know this isn't the topic in hand at the moment, but I noticed this last week when the Sikh Channel were discussing "Sikhs with alcohol issues". One panel member interrupted and said "Sikhs dont drink, these guys are just punjabi's with a sikh background" - or words to that effect! I thought it was very comical to be honest. Sikhs have a huge alcohol dependency problem, but to brush it off as "these guys aren't Sikh, so we'll happily wash our hands off the problem" certainly isn't even beginning to ackowledge to resolve the problem.

Newly adopted kanjar culture passes for traditional jat culture........lol

For the benefit of the Sangat the blog http://sikhscriptures2english.blogspot.com/ Katha of Nanak Prakash can be download from http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio the translation is done by the owner of http://sikhscriptures2english.blogspot.com/ Sri Nanak Prakash in English

Johnny, My father says the same as you!

It is a myth that bhangra = jatts. Jatts doing bhangra only started a few generations ago. My grand parents tell me that when they were growing up in west punjab they never saw a respectable jatt doing bhangra. Instead jatts would hire kanjars and kanjaris to perform bhangra during weddings and other special occasions. Then around the late 30s and 40s jatts were becoming more liberal maybe due to western influence they began to do the the unthinkable i.e. Do the dance of the kanjars and kanjris(bhangra). From then on jatts began to do so much bhangra that this kanjar dance became a permanent part of jatt culture as we see today. Now this dancing business has become so widely accepted that that jatt men do not mind seeing their wife, sister and daughter dance with other men much like kanjris did 75 to 80 years ago. This is similar to how singing bhangra songs was the exclusive domain of the marasees. But then around the 70s jatts began to sing punjabi songs much like marasees. And now things have gotten so far ahead that today singing bhangra music is now considered part of jatt culture.

"To ban songs on cast is knocking bhangra, it's not knocking music, Bhangra is associated and originated from farming,khethi, harvest time and jatts celebrating". Whilst this is true, and I've read the above posts as well which ring a bell. However, this is missing the point - by about 10,000 miles. The celebrate castes, to continually sing about "one caste", to constantly mention the bravery of one caste at the expense of others castes is a bigger diservice to history than to to annhilate "something from history more influential than Shakepaere is on English". "But how can you justify banning, killing and hiding any mention of Shakespeare ? The jatt mentionings are an integral part of the Punjabi maa boli because of their literary significance. If they are not Taliban who burn books than what are they who burn books ?" When one keeps in mind the fact that most listeners of bhangra music are still Sikhs (most, not all), then the lyrics are even more disturbing, given that they are juxtaposed to the Sikh beliefs. I agree religion and punjabi folk music shouldn't be blurred/mixed, but the reality is that alot of Sikh kids grow up listening to it and find it condescending to the contribution of all strata's of punjabi society. I'm personally aware of many people who don't listen to bhangra because it just harps on about one caste, usually the lyrics of the song are written by a member of that caste as well. It's simply embarressing. Note that the singer may not be a jatt, but that doesn't matter - the songwriter usually is, and thats what counts. Embarressing indeed. Personally, I have no truck with caste being mentioned per se. For example, Surinder Shinda's "putt jattan de" is a great song. But, when nearly every song today bangs on and on about it, even jatts are turning off. This isn't about jatts emigrating from Sindh to Punjab 800 years ago, or lifting a plank of wood to irrigate some crops, as interesting as that was to read, old chap. We can all look back on history through rose-tinted glasses (with binoculars and telescopes attached). The reality is, the descendents of those people are commiting suicide, abusing drugs, walk around London looking 5ft 5" with skinny booothi's (not 6ft 4" Arnie types as bhangra songs would lead you to believe). What would happen if a songwriter wrote about the realites of "putt jattan de" today? Remember Ranjit Mani? "chitey chaaderrey jameena gainay, putt sardaran de" - thats the reality. Incidentally, Rannit Mani was critisised for singing about reality. Why? Because we prefer to look through history with rose-tinted glasses (with binoculars and telescopes attached). Lets talk about lifting planks of wood and what not instead. 'Jatt mentionings may have influenced punjabi maa boli'. But if the very mentionings/associations are a threat to future Sikhi practice, then I am more than happy to discard those mentionings. We can't continue to confuse the heck out of our kids by taking them to a gurdwara and teaching them one thing and then listening to some caste-worshipping plonker about how great his ancestors (or caste) were 800 yrs ago and not expect our kids to be confused about it. If the jatts thought that they could happily maintain the status quo and harp on about it expecting other castes to not follow suite, then then where mistaken or naive. If a "shakespeare" equivalent wanted to advance the punjabi language, then go ahead. However, "jatt bhakre baloundey aahvey" is no shakespeare, old chap. It's for this reason I'll say, well done Bobby Friction. Credit where credit is due.

Reminded me of the tuk: "Main hon Param Purakh ko daasa ll Dekhan aaeyo Jagat tamasa ll" :biggrin2: So, Guru Ji is definitely watching our drama... Oddly enough, I started writing another diary yesterday. This is how I began: "Hi there! I dunno who I'm talking to while typing this all...maybe my inner-self? Even so, it's still called being a lunatic in the world I live in..." It feels so crazy seeing your post about this today! LOL :toohappy:

The vulgar Punjabi songs have become such a norm in our culture/society that families dance together to a song that they rarely think about. For example, an old Bindrakhia song - "Tu ni boldi rakaane....tere 'ch tera yaar bolda" (Plz forgive me for having to write it here). So, the whole family...mother, father, sister, brother, maama, jeeja, chacha, taya....everybody....dancing to it. Totally oblivious to what they are dancing to! So, obviously such stuff sinks deep into the sub-concious of people and they start behaving that way.

Right, so a radio DJ decides to ban caste based songs. A few months later someone notices on here and posts the news. Now either no one cared or no one listens to the radio station so it comes as a surprise. What follows is the internet equivalent of a bunch of uncles tearing into each other at a wedding. 7 pages (and counting!) of non-stop tamasha over what may/may not be censorship. Nobody even knows what he is/isnt playing anymore but some decided to go off on one, dragging in Shakespeare and god knows who else to prove rather muddied points. But who really listens to these songs and goes 'hur hur, das mi caste mama, hur hur we is der berst!' like some yokel? That's aimed at jatts/tharkhans/ravidassias as we were all living the rural life once. Once. Time has moved on. The Islamic Zombies got West Punjab and the true sons of Punjab have been scattered to the four winds. Yet we still go on like it's the 16th century. Has no Punjabi fallen in love since Heer/Ranjha's time? Has no Punjabi come up with a joke since the mughal era? Are Punjabis enjoying the same lifestyles as their ancestors? There are other things to write songs about. Going on about the same old stuff kind of hints that not much else actually is going on. Finally, what I dont get about caste is why we need to say it to one another. Like if being Jatt/Ravidassia is so great why dont you go and tell all the whites and blacks about it? Oh they wouldnt give a monkeys? So why bring it up all the bloody time then? Punjabi culture and national identity could be something really beautiful. Songs/stories/filum etc could reflect a deep, thinking culture. Or we could carry on like a broken record stuck in the past like the musis. Also, Shakespeare is terrible. He just copied a lot of older poems and puked up propaganda for the Queen Elizabeth 1 who felt insecure from all the enemies circling around her country. If he was alive today he would be writing junk for Eastenders. Bare in mind it was during his time that the elite of England began dabbling in the occult more strongly with secret societies that exist to this to this day and build relationships with muslim countries in order to secure England against Catholic groups on the continent. Not exactly the a man from a time we should be respecting or looking up to. If the Taliban ever did go back in time they would probably enjoy Elizabethan England like all the Moroccan extremists did when they fought for England against Spain. History's a funny thing aint it?

They just want someone to blame. It is not entirely down to the Jatts. Yes while we played a big part in it we were not the sole perpetrators. Chamaars live seperately in the pind because ALL of the other castes dont want to live next to them. Even villages with little or no Jatt population have a seperate enclave for the so called "low castes". Who's to blame there??

I will admit a lot of Jatts do think they are better then others simply for being Jatt, not all though. Both sides are to blame. The whole caste thing is getting more and more out of control. Even among young Amritdharis caste cancer is still rampant. Mix that with "interjatha/samparda's cultish tribalism"...it makes you think what will be left of our Panth?? WLS made a brilliant point when he said... Chamaars and Tarkhans have made their own songs out of hankaar. They have misunderstood the meaning of Jatt in the old songs which refer to Punjabi folk tales. But having said that, some of it is down to todays Jatts being hankaari themselves and boasting about being Jatt without knowing the first thing about it. Yes Jatts are not perfect nor are any of the other castes. But, historically Jatts have been the most pakke Sikhs. Sadly this is no longer the case, no one can claim to be a pakka Sikh. No caste, no jathebandi...no one. We all need to change our attitudes. Why are we arguing over caste?? Lets try to envision what Dashmesh Pita did when they created the Khalsa.

Are you serious??? It was a Jatt who was sitting on the throne of Khalsa Raj. Us dumb gullible Jatts were able to accomplish what you guys couldn't. Dogras weren't Jatts, and they sold us out to the British. Selling-out seems to be a repeating theme. Master Tara Singh wasn't a Jatt. The most foolish and gullible leader in Sikh history, who chose to join Punjab with India after Nehru charmed him. Non-Jatts are the biggest Congress Party cheleh. They kiss the behinds of the same party that killed their brothers and raped their sisters. Sarna brothers and Dikshit are buddies. They have convinced Congress party to intervene in Sikh affairs and alter the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Act. You see, selling-out is a repeating theme.

I agree wholeheartedly that Jattism has gotten out of control. I said this before on this thread. However, don't you think some of the haughtiness is a reaction to urban Sikhs looking down on the rural Sikhs of Punjab? There are non-Jatt Sikhs in from Delhi who choose to speak Hindi over Punjabi because they think it is more eloquent. They look at Punjabi Bhangra culture as some sort of drunken debauchery, which is precisely how it has been described by some on this forum. This Jatt vs Bhappa issue came up after partition. When both sides looked at their new neighbors with suspicion. You can't blame Jatts if non-Jatts have started using drugs. Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to become druggies. If they do drugs, it's because they are weak minded. It doesn't matter if they are Jatt or something else. That leads me to the issue of blaming Jatts for everything that is wrong in Punjabi society. For example, people say that Jatts pushed the Dalits out of Sikhi. I will admit that we had a big role in doing that, but the rest of you have your hands dirty too. I don't see you guys inviting Dalits into your Gurdwaras. You guys have built gurdwaras to cater to your own castes. If you would join together, then you would outnumber Jatts by a lot. But, none of you wants to take on any responsibility. Just keep blaming Jatts. There was a video posted on this forum earlier, of a Gurdwara in Delhi called Ramgharia Sabha, or something like that. This gurdwara rented it's darbar to Hindus to do pooja worship or something. This is a repeating theme in UK, where we hear about Ramgharia and Labana gurdwaras renting out party halls. What if we started saying that you guys are sell-outs who only care about counting your money? A big over-generalization wouldn't you say?

Bhaji, Kanjars were servants that the Jatts hired. They are the equivalent of bhaiyas today. I don't think you are as dumb as you are pretending to be. Calling someone a kanjar today is not a nice thing. Just like calling someone a Bhappa is derogatory, even though the original meaning had nothing derogatory about it. So what if they were hired to perform at parties? People are still hired to perform at parties. You can hire dholis, singers and dancers today. Does that mean they are doing Kanjar Khanna? Also, what is this about Jattis dancing with other men? Have you ever been to a party? Guys and girls don't dance with each other at all, unless they are married or related. Jatts aren't the only people dancing. Parties are a mix of all kinds of people. I was on a Bhangra team with ramgharias, lubanas, kambojs, and banias. Nobody had any issue participating in "jatt culture". Why does it even have to be Jatt culture? It started with Jatts, but today everyone dances because it's fun. It's Punjabi culture. What about Miss Pooja? She isn't Jatt, but she's the biggest female artist in the industry. By your standards, this makes her the biggest Kanjri as well. I think maybe you've been called a Bhappa one too many times. I apologize on behalf of any Jatt people that might have said this to you, but you can't malign an entire community based on your bad experiences. Knocking someone else's caste isn't the way to solve the problem. It just creates more animosity. Go back and read my posts. Have I ever talked down anyone else's caste? Some people keep saying that Jatts are uneducated farmers, but you guys are no better. Carpenters, blacksmiths, street vendors? Nothing to be proud of there either.

Waheguru! A very chardikala Singh had recommended this site...along with many others of course....because of the detailed explanations on many topics usually rarely discussed.

I get that, they aren't representing Sikh values. But to try and pass the buck and pretend that these guys have no connection to wider Sikh society, which, like it or not, isn't, nor has EVER been made up of purely strictly practicing 'perfect' Sikhs is plain cowardice and shirking of responsibility. It IS wider Sikh societies duty to look after their own wayward and lost. And it's a shame that some of you more 'perfect' brothers and sisters like to bury your heads to this responsibility.

I posted the wrong link before. heres the link http://sikhscriptures2english.blogspot.com/ heres most of the blog in pdf http://www.scribd.com/doc/118429887/Sri-Nanak-Prakash-in-English

Awesome thriller movie

You don't know how lucky you are to be a female. In case that you are not aware, males get raped too, not just women.

Maharaj is amazing..........................read the Hukamnama from Sri Darbar Sahib for December 31, 2012. Talk about who has gyan in this world..............satguru only says Guru Sahib knows Here is the english translation: RAAMKALEE, FIFTH MEHL: It is beyond the three qualities; it remains untouched. The seekers and Siddhas do not know it. There is a chamber filled with jewels, overflowing with Ambrosial Nectar, in the Guru’s Treasury. || 1 || This thing is wonderful and amazing! It cannot be described. It is an unfathomable object, O Siblings of Destiny! || 1 || Pause || Its value cannot be estimated at all; what can anyone say about it? By speaking and describing it, it cannot be understood; only one who sees it realizes it. || 2 || Only the Creator Lord knows it; what can any poor creature do? Only He Himself knows His own state and extent. The Lord Himself is the treasure overflowing. || 3 || Tasting such Ambrosial Nectar, the mind remains satisfied and satiated. Says Nanak, my hopes are fulfilled; I have found the Guru’s Sanctuary. || 4 || 4 || http://www.sgpc.net/hukumnama/jpeg%20hukamnama/hukamnama.pdf

Does speaking to the mirror count ? I think the mirror watches, hears and answers at the same time !!

mega lol @ apple pie dilemma...i thought my delimma's were complicated.lol

For me it's usually this: "Apple pie khaavan or kayla?" Evil Singh559: Khaalaa khaaala kuj ni hunda - mitran da yolo vajda Good Singh559: Tu apple pie khaake tu aape apple pie banjanaa. bas kar seb yan kayla khalla

But who is watching the drama?

Team Kalyug vs Team Guru :D I am guilty of doing this, but in my head haha.

The latest news is Supreme committee of Fremont Gurudawar sahib has cancelled his programme.Villian is sikh youth group who by proxy has taken management of stockton Gurudwara which has taksal based sangat. Sikh youth want to call him there and this is a ploy by taking sangat name. They will taste demonstarions if they go ahead.Rogues of sikh youth and so called dummy american gurudwara committe ( with no gurdawar under them) are the main instigators.

Very good topic. I've been meaning to write something similar to this for a while now. How the Panth has become followers of what my Sant said rather than what my Guru said. Hopefully I can write it soon. We need to respect all Gursikhs, Sants, Mahapurkhs, Bhai Sahibs like Sant Jarnail Singh, Sant Gurbachan Singh, Baba Nand Singh, Baba Isher Singh and Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh etc. but also realize that although they all got to high levels in Sikhi they weren`t 100% perfect, only Guru Sahib is 100% perfect. Hopefully I`ll expand on this soon.

all i asked for was some clips or links talk about hijacking a thread

Sorry but parts of that are completely untrue, to become a master of the sword takes a lifetime, very few could ever be considered masters of the sword..hence why akali nihangs, bhujangis etc were considered to be higher rank and very few in number compared to your basic soldiers with basic weaponry skills. Swordsmanship is a higher level skill, lower rank soldiers used club,mace,staff,daggers etc.. Nihangs were full time soldiers who led a nomadic lifestyle , most other Sikhs were part timers they had their ancestoral trades and in some cases were only trained in basic techniques to protect their own villages. Horsemanship or ghor swal is again an art form in its own right not all had knowledge of this skill foot soldiers etc..

It is good Indian media is taking note of rape cases. One thing Indians should do is have zero tolerance of eve teasing by these cheap roadside romeos. It all starts with eve teasing and from there it just gets worse.

Truth is that the 'drinking' and 'dancing jatt' usually come together. Peg sheg la la!! BWaaahhh!!

How about banning all songs that endorse drinking ! These do more harm and send out wrong messages than a 'dancing jatt' song.

Good on BOBBY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your job requires you to work up to 12 in the morning then it is difficult to wake up for Amritvela. But why not try to do Nitnem at 12 and then go to sleep. Jobs that require a person to work long shifts past 8 hours is nurse and law enforcement; their regular shifts are 10 to 12 hours. If your working every day more than 8 hours, that must be one rich employer to give you overtime every work day.

some photos will write descriptions soon

I think we should leave nature as it is. 99.9% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct. I think this is how nature works, new better adapted models come out all the time. Lets leave their skeletons and fossils in museums. What good would we get from ressurrecting dinosaurs? More coperations and buisnesses setting up and using the animals to make money. I don't think that is right. Besides we're living with dinosaurs all the time. That little bird you gave bread to earlier, is from the line of dinosaurs. They are flying dinos everywhere. :D

i thought sikhi was all about pyar...have abit of prem to a follow sikh , he could have more bhagti than all of us.. we need 2 stop judging people as if were god. we also need 2 show prem like sant baba thakur singh jee did , when the singhs wouldn't wake up for amritvela , baba jee used to massage their feet to wake the singhs up. we need to show pyar not ego , saying this is wrong we know it all. yeah hes not in the right here but no need to be arses about it as said above. just think how dhan guroo nanak dev jee would respond in the upmost respect,pyar and nimrata ... sabh gobind hai sahb gobind hai...

Just wondering why so many random threads are being locked lately. I noticed this trend in the last year. This is a forum for discussions. I visit many different forums (not just religious ones), and i have never seen the type of censorship that occurs here. Whats the reason for this? It seems that there is no freedom left on this site, like there used to be. Admins just lock threads instead of letting them run their course and different opinions being presented. Sometimes, only one side of the story is presented, and before a second opinion is presented, the topic is locked.

As soon as you're married to the guy (or run-off with him), he WILL begin concerning himself about religion, specifically your religion and how it needs to change to Islam. Anyway, it's your life. Good luck and I hope things turn out well for you if you decide this guy isn't for you. I hope you buck the trend but I ain't holding my breath and neither should you.

After all the warnings to apneean about not getting themselves in situations like this - you go and do it anyway.......what does that tell us about you? And now, barely out of your teens, you are talking that Heer Ranjha stuff like you are the first person to ever feel like this. To me you are just yet another Sikh girl who is disgracing her community. Thanks a lot for that. Honestly, how do you expect us to feel about what you are doing??? Seriously, I would hate for any female relative of mine to be doing what you are. I've heard exactly the same crap about 'my bloke, he isn't religious and all that' a dozen times before from apneean, who you then find have converted a few years down the line anyway. So a lot of girls in your position are incapable of actually seeing reality as it is. Besides even if you don't convert, it's still besti for your family. What do you want us to say? Straighten your head out, realise it was foolish to get into the thing in the first place and GET OUT, however 'hard' you may find it.