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Wow, I was expecting a really deep question about Sikh immigrants, and Singh came out with a question about cheese! Fair play to that! :lol2:

I see this as a very superficial thirst for Truth - Sach that each individual goes through. Sree Raag: You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us? We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1|| If I did not commit any sins, O Infinite Lord, how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause|| You are my Master, the Inner-knower, Searcher of hearts. The servant is known by his God, and the Lord and Master is known by His servant. ||2|| Grant me the wisdom to worship and adore You with my body. O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3||

Take the Nirmala and Udasi sects and reintegrate them into the larger body of the panth. They were extremely successful and created a milestone via their 'missionary' (term is being employed quite lightly here) activities in amongst Hindus and Muslims wanting to discard their faiths. Same can be done today, especially with liberals versus the fanatics.

That's also a good idea. If they want to move or stay it's up to them. But we can also replicate that success and do it in Punjab, Haryana and Himachal. Instead of filling the pockets of parcharaks who do not show results, we need redirect our funds towards these Singhs who are doing actual Sikhi parchar to so called low castes and getting successful results. This is where it really matters. These new Sikhs are more Pakke in Sikhi than the average Punjabi Sikh today.

The EDL may claim to be against Islamic extremism but their own actions are of extremists. They go outside Mosques while people are praying to almighty God, why on Earth do we want to ally ourselves to them? We Sikhs protect the rights of religious freedom not attack it, remember a couple of years ago during the London riots many Singhs guarded the Southall Mosque while our Muslim brothers prayed, that is what Sikhi is about. During that time we protected the Hindu jeweller shops which were a high priority for the looters, that is what Sikhi is about. Sikhi isn't about going to pubs while the EDL get tanked up and protest in the streets causing hatred in the community. Sorry about the repeat post

your friendships are based on karmic relationships of give and take between each other. when the karma is finished than the natural attraction of the friendship also finishes. let them go if need be. also, worlldy people, and even religious people, frequently don't want you to change b/c they have some sort of benefit from you remaining the same. if you change they lose that benefit. listen to your soul and you can't go wrong. you will make new friend.s

As always, very good points Veerji. The way the Jews managed to make their country after 2000 years is amazing. One thing we can learn from the Jews is that demographics is a very important step in realizing our political goals. They made sure their new state would become a Jewish majority state to insure it's safety from any internal threat. As we have seen from history of Punjab, we have always suffered due to our demographic problem. During misl period, Sikhs were about 5% of Punjab's population even though Sikhs were ruling it. Then during Maharaja Ranjit SIngh's period, Sikh population grew but it was only about 15% of Punjab's population. Sikhs were not a majority even in central Punjab where they were the strongest. During partition, the only reason why Punjab was broken up against overwhelming Sikh opposition is because Sikhs were a small minority of about 14% of Punjab. After the so called independence, Hindu separatists further divided Punjab into Himachal, Haryana, Chandigarh because again Sikhs did not form the majority. Punjab has always suffered because Sikhs were a minority. Had Sikhs been a majority or atleast half of Punjab's population, no way Punjab would have ever been partitioned in the first place. So as you suggested only those projects which somehow work for the benefit for the Panth should be encouraged, Akal academy is such a school project which encourages Sikh values and is a good answer to the Christian and Arya Samaj schools and will contribute to the eventual goal of political sovereignty. Singhs in Madhya Pardesh doing Parchar should be helped in anyway we can since they are helping our demographic problem. There are many other famous organisations but they are wasting their time and money on projects in other countries which can be better spent in doing Sikhi parchar.

Dhadrianwale leaves a lot of question marks on his very own conduct. I too, would be very pleased to know if and how much revenue goes in this direction of seva. We have no right to attack their behavior but we do have the right to question in these instances.

Even many Keshdhari Punjabi girls are not good. E.g from my 1st hand experience, I married a Punjabi Keshdhari Sikh girl. However I found her to be a liar and deceitful. Lying all the time. I am on a verge of a divorce and this woman keeps lying to court now all the time to get advantages. So who would you marry? A Keshdhari girl who is a liar, dishonest ( not Sikh values) Or a Non sikh girl, who is honest, truthful with a good moral character( Sikh values). I would marry somebody who is Sikh at heart, because she can always become a Sikh physically later.However, its hard to make change somebody's inner self( e.g haumai, krodh, jhooth, ninda) It hurts to see somebody say that he/she is a Sikh but acts completely opposite.

As per the ancient texts, the Guru is an essential component required for the subsequent liberation of an entrapped soul. Enchained in the web of 'maya' (essentially the term is an amalgamation of two simultaneous terms, 'ma'-not and 'ya'-this) the soul is mislead by the mind which provokes spasms of falsehood in it's nucleus. The Guru is an individual who is essential in the annihilation of the mind's deceitfulness, he tears the curtain of illusion aside and invokes the reality of one's purpose in life. 'Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service onto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.' - Bhagvad Gita As It Is. The mind is an essential partner of the soul. It is the simultaneous counterpart which attaches itself to creation and it's illusory precepts. Subsequently the soul is drowned in the mind's actions, rendering it's cries mute. As a result one is forced to traverse through different life forms (8.4 million via Gurmat) and re-enter the human body in order to merge with the supreme soul. One who is merged with the said supreme soul, and it's fundamental embodiment is worthy to be declared Guru as such a soul is not ensnared by the precedents of 'maya.' 'Having obtained real knowledge from a self-realized soul, you will never fall again into such illusion, for this knowledge you will see that all living beings are but part of the supreme.' -Bhagvad Gita As It Is. Not every liberated individual is worthy to be declared Guru, subsequently the Guru of 'Kali-Yug' and beyond, as per the Khalsa ethos, is Guru Nanak Dev Ji. A fundamental embodiment and mimic of the divine lord. The Guru however does not proclaim or declare his need for disciples from rooftops. The disciple seeks the Guru and as per his efforts gains success in locating an authentic master. 'In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the absolute personality of Godhead. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for divine consciousness, which is matured in 'bhava', or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called 'prema', the highest perfectional stage of life.' -Bhakti rasamrta sindhu (1.4.15-16). Despite the disciple's preliminary affection and attitude towards the Guru, post-initiation the Guru tests his disciple to the verge of excruciating torture. Mentally and spiritually the disciple is forced to forge a legendary endurance, via which he can perpetually traverse the path of his master. The path manifested by Guru Nanak Dev plausibly retains it's reputation as the most bloodiest path of liberation with an uncountable number of adherents discarding their lives for the beloved Guru. Due to it's emphasis on saintliness and simultaneously warrior-ship, Guru Nanak's ethos offers dual precincts of liberation,via meditation and militarism in defense of humanity irregardless of caste,creed and allegiance. These qualities not only speak volumes to the greatness of the Guru's path but also prove it's credible effectiveness on the spiritual spectrum, via it's dissociation with any form pf patriotism and temporal attachment. 'A human being who identifies this body made of three elements with his self, who considers the byproducts of the body to be his kinsmen, who considers the land of birth worshipable, and who goes to the place of pilgrimage simply to take a bath rather than meet men of transcendental knowledge there, is to be considered like an <banned word filter activated> or a cow.' -Srimd Bhagvatam (10.84.13). When one follows the Guru's commands his mind transforms from his bitter foe into his beloved friend, assisting him in his journey towards liberation. The mind cannot be substituted for or excluded in this process, similar to a remote control which is incapable of performing it's intended function in the absence of proper power; simultaneously the human body cannot grant liberation without the proper assistance of the mind. 'One must deliver himself with the help of the mind, and not degrade himself. The mind is friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy as well.' -Bhagvad Gita As It Is. The mind is incorporated in the pentagonal manifestation of the five vices, lust, wrath,ego, attachment and fear. Without proper restraint being practiced it evolves into one's fiercest foe. 'For him who has conquered his mind, the mind is he best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy.' -Bhagvad Gita As It Is. The ancient texts are voluminous in their various allegories and descriptions of the perfect Guru, yet all concur one essential point. Without a genuine Guru, the point of mortal existence is pointless. For the Khalsa, the Guru is the Shabad manifested by it's creator via the medium of the latter's fundamental embodiment, Guru Nanak Dev and his subsequent successors. http://tisarpanth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/07/the-importance-of-guru.html Lets be mature about this guys and not turn on our f*** Hindu mentality. I am sure a few individuals will realize what we can achieve via such articles. Do check out the picture via the link.

In my opinion its really important to not start following a group in its hate against Islam just because they flatter Sikhs and Sikhi as Tommy does... Some people need to ask themselves the question... Do you hate Islam or just Islamic extremists?! People say EDL and Tommy hate just Islamic extremism but his actions and words say something else he speaks against the Koran as if hes a scolar of it and calls it barbaric.... aren't we told in Gurbani not to speak bad of Islam and the Koran? You guys really wanna cheer people that mock Islam/koran and belief system of so many Sufi sants and Muslims who were blessed my our Gurus?!?!? I love Islam and the people who follow it peacefully, I dont know where you guys have been bought up that you have so much hate for a faith group but I have some of the nicest, humblest Muslim friends and colleagues.... didn't Guru Hargobind Singh Ji build a mosque for Muslims!?... how would our Gurus feel if EDL turned up outside Mosques built by our Gurus and shouted "who the f**k is allah?" and "Muhammed is a peado"? What would people like Pir Buddha Shah say? I understand that the EDL have reacted to Islamic extremism but I just don't get the mentality on the forum from fellow Sikhs whereby supporting and justifying the EDL has become accepetable... should some of you on this forum find it acceptable to shout slogans of intolerance and hate against Islam and smash up Muslim shops etc then I just dont understand how thats compatible with Sikhi!? Can someone provide me a historical context where our forefathers have launched a premtive strike on a perceived threat or agaisnt Muslims practising Islam?! In my opinion, any group that attacks places of worship and religious beliefs is wrong! Guru Tegh Bahadur taught us to defend another's faith even if you don't believe it! I hope we can all put this into practice...

True say, only problem is that it is a visible minority and the default youth culture, wgile the sikh youth culture seems to be chaning back to sikhi from drugs, women and fighting. We do need to tackle that (black youth culture) as many are blamed for a few. Pind also needs to crank the rich kids abusing the students, however from Dal Khalsa I have not heard anything about africans. Only hinduvta death squads, made up of I assume hindus and gaddar sikhs (same thing, but look different). Btw, how r u bro? Started woth a 5-6 yard dastaar now gonna tie full soon. :D VJKVJF||

Most sense I have ever heard Tommy Robinson speak...

Thanks for the replies everyone, really appreciate it Most of you told me to stay with her, I think you're right, and especially after this weekend, I'm sure she's worth keeping around. Our Gurdwara celebrated Miri Piri today (Sunday), the Gurdwara has been packed since Friday evening. I always go with my buddies to do sewa and help out. I took her with me for the first time on Friday, she did matha tekh in front of Guru Ji, got parshad and sat down to listen to keertan with me. She comes from a non-practicing Christian family, she herself believes in God but not the Church. She is spiritual and has experience meditating. So she closed her eyes and let herself be carried away by the keertan, even though she couldn't understand it, she said it was extremely peaceful and easy to relax listening to it. We went down to the langar hall after that. My friends were there, uncles and aunties I know were too. I introduced her and everyone was really nice, obviously since Miri Piri was only 2 days away it was really busy, lots of Sangat and a ton of work to do. Some of the aunties asked her if she wanted to learn how to make roti, she said yes and they took her with them to make roti for Sangat. Me and the guys were outside unloaidng supplies and setting up for the festival. We all had langar together later on, and after that stayed to clean up. There were only a few of us and the kitchen was a mess, the langar hall was messed up as well. I was washing those huge pots and pans we make daal in with my friends in the back, she was cleaning up the smaller things with the other girls in the front. All of us were there past midnight, but it's always a ton of fun and this time was no different, we joke around and have fun, and when the work is done, warm up some milk, grab ladoos and a few other sweets and sit around talking about the day. She met all my Gurdwara friends that day and had a ton of fun cleaning up, most chicks would't be into that stuff but she really enjoyed it, even though it was her first time, everyone really took a liking to her and wants her to come back. We were there Saturday and Sunday too. Sunday she learned about the concept of Miri and Piri, the life and times of Sri Guru HarGobind Sahib Ji, I can't believe how into Sikh history she is. We spent the entire day at the Gurdwara, yes we got stared at by some of the older uncles and aunties who did not know us and were casuals at the Gurdwara, but no one said anything bad and it was all good. The icing on the cake? I saw a girl from Uni who told me that she only dates cut-haired guys at the Miri Piri mela. I waved at her when I saw her and she waved back. We are still friends, I didn't take it personally when she turned me down so we still talk. I went over and started chatting, then my GF shows up after a few minutes. I introduce her and the Uni girls' jaw drops to the floor lol. She is visibly startled, but keeps it together and continues talking normally to me, glancing over at the GF every now and then. Then we leave to somewhere else in the Gurdwara, and I would occasionally look over at the girl from Uni and she would be staring at us from across the room. I was with my friends, the GF invited a few of her non-Sikh friends, all of us were having the time of our lives, and this girl was staring at us until she left to go home. Absolutely priceless hahaha I hope everyone else had a wonderful Miri Piri weekend as well! Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

We already pay a form of unofficial Jizya because the people who want to bomb the country tend to be on the dole and it is our taxes that pay for it. Our taxes also pay for the extra security after an attack. A new form of Jizya now will be that after the attack on Mosques, they will now demand that the government pay for CCTV cameras to be installed in each Mosque!

Absolutely love Alan Watts yay

He is amazing, he is one rarest of westerners who actually understood and realized eastern spirituality in relations to human consciousness..god gifted man for sure.!!

Never said I am waiting for Sant ji that is something you made up. It is obvious you have nothing virtues to add to this discussion so you go on personal attacks to save your Babas. The Morcha was still going with Sant Baba Thakur Singh Ji Khalsa here. Just because no one told your Baba or told you doesn`t mean the Morcha was not going on. You won`t get no more information from me about this matter. What I have said is pretty much general knowledge. However the Sikh sangat is not even asking for a Dharam Yudh Morcha. They just want leaders which I listed to speak out about the Punjab police officer making a confession. Which Jathedar of any group has approached a court or the Punjab government. Many of the Babas followers were saying that leaders like Hari Singh Randhawa, Dhumma, Sant Samaj kept close relationships with Badal so they can influence Badals government to help Sikhs. Now Sikhs are calling on these leaders, but all we get is that it is not in Maharaj`s Hukam for 1984 victims to be helped. It`s in Maharaj`s Hukam for Dhumma to sit at the feet of Badal, but not Hukam to tell Badal here is the proof you were wanting from the Sikhs. The worst enemy of Sikhs are these agents among us acting as Sikhs. Darshan Ragi, Sarna, Dal Khalsa, etc have close ties with congress government. So use these close ties to get justice for 1984 victims and their families. But once again this side also has failed the Sikhs. Both sides yell at the top of their lungs for money, but now they are not even ready to give a political statement in favor of Sikhs.

fix your health including exercise and eating. fix your sleep: http://khojee.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/shabad-to-cure-insomnia/

Sant ji started Dharam yudh Morcha, but has anyone heard that Sant ji said now the Morcha is over? Chela of Babas and professors are using excuses to hide the truth. These Babas and professors have been bought and/or are scared. I give a lot of credit to Dhadrianwale for speaking out. When things get tough the chelas and leaders use the excuse of Maharajs Hukam has not granted us to take action. If one of these chelas business or family members were in trouble then they won't waste no time using all legal and illegal means to save it or them. Hari Singh Randhawa to gain political power stands beside Badal. But when it comes to Sikh victims of 1984, then he is not saying a word. So it's okay to go against Maharaj's Hukam when Hari Singh Randhawa needs to gain political power, but not okay to follow Maharaj's Hukam when action can be taken again those who butchered Sikhs. Where is Dhumma, Harinder Singh, Darshan Ragi, Sarbjit Singh Dhunda and his missionary college, Sant Samaj, Jathedar Iqbal Singh, Sant Satnam Singh of Neeldhari cult and rest of the lot who like to call themselves leaders of the Khalsa Panth? Sant Satnam Singh ji of the Neeldhari cult has now picked up the sword, so where is his Saintly side coming to protect the weak victims of 1984 as a sipahi? These fake Jathedars also gave him a sword of Satguru's so where is this Saintly Shakti that he holds? It's all pakhand what these leaders are doing. They are making a mockery of the 1984 victims and their families. Yet Sikhs are so easy to forget when digging deep into their pockets and donating to such groups. These leaders are given power by the Sikhs when you donate your hard earned money to them.

Gay marriages have no place in a Gurdwara. Anand Karaj is only for a Sikh man and Sikh woman. If gays want to get married, they can find some other suitable way to register their marriage. But Gurdwara is not the place for this.

I honestly believe its not up to him(dhandrianwale) nor us to take full fledged action - dharam yudh morcha. It's up to akaal purkh hakum. Very important incident- game changing incident in sant jarnail singh bhindranwale life is totally been overlooked by historians which is only "after" darshan and permission of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj at hazoor sahib- sant jarnail singh bhindranwale started dharam yudh morcha. Before darshan, people criticize him too - called him typical gyani who is reading gurbani all the time not raising voice against social injustices..sri guru nanak dev ji got stones thrown at him surely his sikh in physical form/in social form goes through much worst hardship..its kalyug..people didn't spare sri guru nanak dev ji..how can they spare his sikhs/dogs at his doors... Surely every sikh should be sant-sipahi as far as sidhak goes- keep trying its best to spread awareness but at the end its up to akaal purkh hakum which decides how effective one is - sant-sipahi/who is given samporan sant sipahi role..there are plenty of examples there were major injustices done by gov't post 1984. one equally claim with twisted logic- how come baba thakur singh surrender at blue star, how come he didn't continue with dharam yudh morcha after sant jarnail singh bhindranwale? We can only speculate, give advise, judge people on our pre-conceived notions (apply default purest form of sant/sipahi role on everyone) but only rare people understand akaal purkh hakum and only rarest of rare bhramgyani in form of karak gets the seva/hand picked by akaal purkh- seva of sant-sipahi ..To name few of many samporan sant and sipahis- baba deep singh, bhai mani singh, baba sahib singh bedi, baba, baba sobha singh, baba bir singh nurangabad, baba maharaj singh nurangabad, some of great bhramgyani nihang mahapursh, sant jarnail singh bhindranwale)...you can ask any parcharaik..they will tell you same thing its not up to individual but up to akaal purkh hakum...after all its his divine play..!!

From FB unity getting stronger with EDL and Sikhs English Defence League Sikh Division - EDL49 minutes ago top day at the demo yesterday. Many things to share but the one thing that sticks in my mind was at the start of demo There was a Muslim lady with hijab on and her husband with a kid in a pushchair walking down broad street, me and a steward helped them through the crowds to get them out. As we pushed through the demo not one word was said to them, our lads moved out their way for them. The speeches were great, the crowd were top, the Sikh division were well looked after which was my highlight of the day for me as it further shows we are not racist, we are not against all Muslims but we will stand as one against the threat of extreme Islam on our shores. ^ alot of people will be disapointed at the dignity held by the Sikh Divsion of EDL. In the fact they helped a Muslim women in a Hijab. No muslim would ever do this if there were in a sitiuation with thier opposite number

I agree Dhadrianwale has a huge following and can have a significant influence on what others think about 1984. Again I am not saying parchar is bad at all. Those in positions to take action for those that are unable to defend themselves or fund themselves must do so instead of just talking about it. I feel that Dhadrianwale is in the position to take action. I also know that Hari Singh Randhawa is in a position to take action, but he has not uttered one word about Surjit Singh's confession that I know of. However Hari Singh Randhawa is so quick to take a photo with Badal. Same goes for Dhumma Sahib. Both are so quick to call themselves part of Taksal, but do not show by their actions that they are from the Taksal of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj. Dhumma was so quick to collect fame by putting up Sant ji's name on the Memorial of 1984, but now justice can be served to the victims. Dhumma is quiet as a mouse. Add Harinder Singh Sikri runner to the list as well. The Khalsa Panth honestly needs to ask themselves. We give our money to these leaders and they spend the money on marketing their name and/or jatha. When it comes to taking action they don't do anything or take a step that does really nothing. So why give dasvand to such people? Why not stand up to them and ask them critical questions? Why continue down this road of giving and receiving nothing back. This starts with one person standing up and slowly the ripple effect will take place. Don't look to another to change. Be the change first and others will learn from you. Sitting with Gurmukhs I have learned that they appreciate the critical questions and welcome them as they have nothing to hide.

It doesn't need to be an either or scenario. Working on strengthening the base by putting money into quality education, eradicating caste, conversion of non-Sikhs to Sikhi is a step towards Khalistan. The education of Sikhs will allow them to withstand the brainwashing and propaganda of the Indian media, Eradicating caste will create a sense of community and belonging for all Sikhs. Conversion of non-Sikhs to Sikhi will expand the land area that can potentially be a part of Khalistan. We need to follow the Jewish example. They created the idea of a Jewish state by buying up land from Arabs and setting up collective farms and communities made up of Jewish migrants from oppressed Jewish communities in Russia and Eastern Europe. The money for buying up the land came from rich Jews in Western Europe and the USA whilst the labour for these farms came from Eastern Europe. Had there not been the migration of Jews between 1880-1948 into Palestine then the Jewish state would still have been a dream now rather than a reality. We are actually in a much better position than the Jews were then. We have a majority in Punjab. The Arabs tried to stop the migration of Jews into Palestine even using violence but we would face no such thing. If the Punjabi farmer needs labour then we should have Sikh organisations encouraging those impoverished Sikhs like Sikligars, Vanjaras and new Sikh converts such as those from Madhya Pradesh to migrate to Punjab in order to stop the need for Bhaiya labour. With regard to education I think we should try our best to support the Akal Academies in Punjab. They are expanding at a good rate and not only is their education of a high quality but whenever one opens in a rural area then the amount of Keshdhari kids goes up. The ideal situation would for the failing education department of the Punjab government to be wound up and all the schools in Punjab to come under the management of the Kalghidhar trust that manages the Akal academies. This is one way to ensure that 90% of the next Sikh generation is Keshdhari and not Mona like it is now.

I've seen two photos of people called Sikhs, none of whom have their kesh or dastaar. EDL are essentially neo-nazis and as Sikhs, we should be against them and not united with them.

In which case, go with a group of friends, two of whom stay outside and call the cops if you're not back out in say 10 mins. If it is something suspicious, then you're potentially allowing other more naive people fall into their trap.

I agree 100%. I'm not against Bhai Sahib, but Sant Sipahi is a very deep title that shouldn't be used so loosely. With that said got to make sure people don't start bashing for no reason b/c of paranoia and cause more vavivaad. I think yournpostbwas balanced and shows both sides.

If people don't like/prefer what dhandrianwale doing than please live by example and go to india, show him and rest of people there how its done and what's needs to be done.

Sikhs do not need to convert anyone , our Guru ji does not teach us that, but tells us to respect all religions, teach/tell her/him about sikhi and if she/he accept sikhi through love and respect of Guru ji then all the better. but better to know her/his views about this before you get in too deep like how/ which religion kids will brought up to follow etc.

I ask specifically about 1984 because he does a lot of parchar on 1984 victims and their families. Which also can mean he is very passionate about helping the victims and their families. In this sense I wanted to know what projects he had taken up in this matter or what donations he has made to other organizations so they can helping 1984 victims and their families in a big way.

Other than doing parchar what has Dhadrianwale been doing along with his big following? Named as a Sant what actions or plans has he implemented to bring justice? I understand sangat provides him with a lot of dasvand. How much of this dasvand has gone to hiring lawyers for 1984 Sikh victims? How much is being given to Sikhs families that still have family members locked up in prison? Parchar is all good and raises awareness, but Dhadrianwale has been given also the gift of raising money and then putting it to work for justice. How many actions has he taken against the government for violating or disregarding their own law? How many treatment centres have been opened for people that are addicted to drugs? Speaking about the issue is just pouring a glass of water for a thirsty child and then leaving it on the counter. The glass of water needs to be picked up from the counter, slowly handed to the child, and watch him drink the glass of water hoping he does not spill it. This is not an attack on Dhadrianwale, but asking for clarification on what he is doing other than parchar.

Luckysingh you bought up a good point but it appears even if one overcomes marrying out of caste, one seems to be stuck marrying within their groups, sects and so on.!! But i am happy to say things are changing slowly..we are seeing more interracial/out of caste/out of group marriages between two sikhs who are baptized ..i can speak for my own divine friend who used to be sampardaie katha vaichak for 10 years ..he recently married white singhani recently..its funny in their case- she does not know punjabi and he knows english but still broken they are couple match made in heaven as they both have put divine guru as their central theme, divinity as witness in their marriage. They both went to see his family last year. She was more inclined to learn about our sikh culture, more interested than some of punjabi women you would find. Things are definitely in reverse in good way. As veer said above, our punjabi girls seem to be more western whereas many white/blacks other races have bought up in western culture and they discovered its shallowness in overtime they are more into eastern spiritualism-peace of mind than our whole lot...they don't waste time in talk about technicalities/other flame wars, they jump right in depth of eastern spiritualism and sikh gurbani mysticism...!!

The problem is that dating, then marriage seems to be the only way to eradicate the caste system !! I've known plenty of Sikhs who have dated and married out of caste but I have NEVER known anyone have an arranged marriage out of caste, have you ???

It's funny that people are saying making parchia with 'YES' or 'NO' is not what a Sikh of the Guru should do, but it's okay to encourage this Sikh of the Guru to have pre-maritial interracial relationships? In relationships of this nature, whether white or brown, sooner or later both parties give in to kaam and this is not the Sikh way of doing things. To the OP, you already know your family won't be too happy about you bringing home a white girl, so what more needs to be said? Before things get too deep with this girl, why not sit your parents down and ask them how they would feel about having this girl as their future daughter-in-law? Surely it's your family you should be seeking advice from, not people here. It's you and your family who will have to deal with the consequences if you end up marrying this girl, not people on this forum so of course they will encourage you to do things that they wouldn't want their own brothers/sisters/daughters/sons to do. In my own family and many others, I've seen what happens when Punjabis marry white girls/boys and it's not pretty. The actions of one person can cause so much fall-out throughout even the extended family and it's not easy to be a part of this. Your mother and father raised you, you owe more to them than this girl- why risk your parents' happiness and respect just because of a few rotten Punjabi girls you met. You mention that these girls were Punjabi and didn't like your turban and beard, but if instead you met or were introduced to a Punjabi Gursikh or keshdari girl, then she would like your turban and beard. Before you are certain that you want to marry this girl, why not ask your parents to use their connections to introduce you to a Punjabi girl who does respect your kesh, because despite common belief, there are quite a few Sikh girls out there who do want to marry a sardar. Of course there are many white girls who do respect Sikh values and kesh, and even go on to marry Sikh guys. Some of these girls also become Sikh and take Amrit, but many more also do not become Sikh or amritdhari, no matter how much respect they have for our religion. Pre-maritial relationships of any kind are forbidden, and an Anand Karaj can only be done between a Sikh man and Sikh woman- read up on it in the Sikh Rehat Maryada.

All up to u son. No one else only between u and the guru.

That's pretty harsh. Aman Singh sounds like a an intelligent guy so if this girl was after him for his money then he would soon have figured that out. Aman Singh I think you are right in considering all the issues that arise from having a non-Punjabi partner. The issue with parents is a major issue, mainly because your mother would want a Punjabi daughter in law because she is looking into the future and thinks that a Punjabi one would be more respectful, probably want to live in the extended family, look after her etc. Although we all know that even a Punjabi wife is less likely to do the above but your mother probably has the above perception. Also our own stereotyping of white people also doesn't help so she will probably think that the white girl will turn you into a clubbing-shubbing, sharabi-kababi! I think both your parents as well as the white girl needs you to put everything on the table. She needs to know that your family are an important part of your life, that she might have to live in the extended family and take an active part in the larger family. Your parents will need you to be straight with them. As you said marriage is still far off as you need to complete uni so you could mention in passing how you see some non-Punjabis are more Sikh than the Sikhs that you have met. Tell them that you are friends with males and females of all races. This will get your family used to that fact that you are interacting with all kinds of people and they will see that you are still strong in your Sikhi.

Veerji this is the manmat method that Pakhandi Babe usually advise. It is contrary to Gurmat and fake examples are usually given to justify it. Veerji when Banda Singh Bahadur himself followed Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj the question of Bhai Mani Singh using the Pakhandi Sadh method of parchian (gambling) does not arise. It's a shame we have stooped so low as to even propagate lies on Bhai Mehtab Singh and Bhai Sukha Singh regarding the parchi method when our Guru Sahib has all the answers.

Thanks for the replies Sangat Ji! I should point out that it isn't the fact that her skin is white that is making me have doubts, there are 2 other reasons: 1) I want to raise my kids to be Sikhs, so naturally I will be teaching them Punjabi. My GF does not speak Punjabi, so it would be hard to have a Punjabi-speaking environment at home. I want my future kids to be able to read/write Gurmukhi too, so they can read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without needing to use English translations. 2) My parents. I do not know how they will react to me bringing home a white girl. I am pretty sure they wouldn't be too happy though. But other than that, I could definitely see myself getting married to her in the future once we are done with Uni. She knows how seriously I take my Sikhi, and that I want to start a Sikh family in the future, so the fact that she has stuck around shows me that she is willing to (if we get married) bring the kids up as Sikhs, she would have no problem with it. @Ek_Sikh: Yeah I've seen keshdari guys go out with Hindu and Muslim girls too. I really don't know what it is, for some reason, the majority of apnea kuddiya don't have much respect for the turban and beard. There isn't much you can do about it though, I think that the kesh acts as a great filter to keep away immature girls who aren't long-term relationship material. This girl asked me out, so right away I knew that she cared about more than just appearances (although tbh, I consider myself to be a pretty good looking guy, not trying to brag lol), and she has proved me right over the past couple of weeks. I think that most keshdari guys who complain about girl problems are the ones that only go for Punjabi girls. The ones that will go for white/hindu/muslim/black/chinese etc... girls too know that there are plenty of chicks out there who will date them for who they are, lots of girls who actually respect a guy who stands up for his Sikhi, and a lot of them ain't Punjabi. @nanosecond: Yes I think she likes me for my values. Like I said, she doesn't go clubbing or get drunk or do drugs or anything of the sort. She is the kind of girl who focuses on her studies, volunteers with charities and organizes food drives. She told me how much of a relief it was for her to meet a guy who actually shared her straight edge lifestyle and drive to do sewa (although she doesn't call it that obviously). I have been told over and over again throughout my life by girls that the most attractive trait in a guy is for him to stand up for what he believes in. Kesh is a symbol that you believe in Sikhi values of selfless service, equality of all mankind, no drugs/alcohol, fighting against injustice etc... a guy that cuts his hair for girls is pathetic. If a guy cuts his hair to win over a girl, I'd bet my life that the girl is going to end up dumping him in the future, because if she can make you give up your Sikhi, she knows she can make you do anything she wants, and she will lose all respect for you. And a girl who does not respect you is a girl who won't stay with you. Real men, pioneers, leaders, do not care what the world throws at them, they stand tall in the face of all adversity and never throw away what they believe in, for that would be the death of their soul. It is for this reason that I have decided that I would rather remain single for the rest of my life than cut my hair to try and get with some immature girl. Thankfully, it doesn't seem like I will have to do that I am sorry about your situation, I hope things work out for you, you sound like a really nice guy and deserve happiness

Really ?? Whenever, I hear some gursikh mention this, then I'm not always too sure if they are enlightened or not. As far as I understand, someone who is enlightened relies totally on divine intuition and their ego would not be in the way of making such choices difficult. Ego- is what creates this uncertainty of what should be in the best of our interests ! Anyway, this is my understanding for my current level of spirituality !! :biggrin2:

I don't think what you are doing is wrong. I will tell that not Punjabi girls will be good and not all white girls will be bad. Most important thing is moral character. If she is good that way, respects you for your identity, then all's well. Mind it, she probably likes you for who you are( that is you stand by certain ideal and values, and that includes your beard and turban). Many girls want to be with somebody who has these qualities. I wont go to the point where you would have premarital sexual relationship though.

Follow your instinct and carry on if you are happy with this. I have to agree that some white people are MORE Sikh than our Punjabi lot. A cousin of mine who is full Sikh was in the same situation some years ago and was impressed by the attitude and behavior of this white gori. However, she claimed and believed to be atheist and then after learning about sikhi realized that it was a great religion without having some Abrahamic God and rituals as in other religions ! Anyway, they continued and got married and his white wife speaks Punjabi very well, dresses and cooks like all Punjabi women and is getting ready for amrit soon !! All the best ! Do simran and let your intuition and instinct decide. Sorry, but this is clearly NOT the way to proceed as a Sikh of the Guru. :nono:

Fateh Aman Singh jee ! First of all respect for your staying drih in your sikhi ........ Looks like you have met someone with who you were supposed to be ... these are connections that are result of our previous lives ........ she will help you get even deeper and stronger in your sikhi and you will her .... race/culture is an artifical artifact ... listen to your heart and have no guilt about dating her ....Instead be in shukrana that maharaz has blessed both of you with each others company (hopefully for ever).... Let your spiritual energies fuse ..... TuhinTuhin ji - not sounding critical but parchia pauna is manmat ......

Sure whatever works for outer good image of sikhs in media..although not ideal or perfect but its lot better than some of sikhs -punjabi tribal pendus/extremist fighting/arguing in gurdwaras infront of maharaj over their pathetic, sadistic, nitty gritty tribal issues..!!

I am not dictating the choice or whether it's right or wrong. My comment is based on the fact that you are asking a question on a sikh forum that has nothing to do with sikhi !! The question is about relationships, promiscuity and the effects. This is an answer you get from 'dear deidre' in the Mirror newspaper! No need to be offended by my statement. If you had a problem with heroin withdrawal then i would advise you go see a doctor and specialist in rehabilitation, it would be no good telling you the wrong and damage done (which you would already know!) and what a mess your in on a sikh forum would it ??

if you make one mistake that guru ji told forbiddingly not to do such as: Cutting your hair , Doing Drugs , Cheating on your wife , Your paap is forever it cannot be forgiven and you will definitely go to hell. Where did you get this nonsense from, Guru ji is all forgiving merciful, this is wrong!!, It can be forgiven if you are truly sorry its called doing pesh in front of the SGGS JI and the panj pyare who will give you a penance to do, please stop frightening this vulnerable, new to sikhi young person, op please ignore this comment do not be afraid maharaj is very very loving, merciful more than any living being is or ever will be. Keep your determination and faith strong,pray and concentrate on Guru ji talk to him, he will call you when the time is right to take amrit and you will not be able to stop your self,trust me i know. But that does not mean you can keep making mistakes or doing wrong and you will be forgiven every time!

If he chooses to forgive her past and goes ahead and marries her, the most important thing is that from that day onwards, they both remain committed and faithful to one another. If he feels that she is able to be loyal and faithful to him after marriage, then he should think about whether he can forgive her past deeds. It would be a bad idea for him to rush his decision, marry her and then still resent her inside for her past, as I'm sure it will always play on his mind and he will be unable to fully trust her and most likely would always use her past as ammunition during arguments about other things. Trust, loyalty, open communication and being faithful to one another is the foundation of any successful marriage so he needs to think long and hard about whether he can forgive her for this. Forgiveness is a tricky issue. On the one hand, it's good to be able to overlook someone's past mistakes from their youth, a time when they were naive and misguided. On the other hand, sometimes some people are just unable to forgive certain things (ie. promiscuity) especially if they were not like that themselves. It all depends on the individuals involved and whether or not they have now repented and learned the error of their ways. We have all made mistakes and done things we are not proud of and usually the only thing standing between us and forgiveness is our big, fat ego. A person who is able to forgive is truly blessed. Pride, duality and ego prevent us from being able to forgive one another. On Ang 1372 Bhagat Kabir Ji says the following: ਕਬੀਰਾ ਜਹਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਤਹ ਧਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਜਹਾ ਝੂਠੁ ਤਹ ਪਾਪੁ ॥ Kabeeraa Jehaa Giaan Theh Dhharam Hai Jehaa Jhooth Theh Paap || Kabeer, where there is spiritual wisdom, there is righteousness and Dharma. Where there is falsehood, there is sin. ਜਹਾ ਲੋਭੁ ਤਹ ਕਾਲੁ ਹੈ ਜਹਾ ਖਿਮਾ ਤਹ ਆਪਿ ॥੧੫੫॥ Jehaa Lobh Theh Kaal Hai Jehaa Khimaa Theh Aap ||155|| Where there is greed, there is death. Where there is forgiveness, there is God Himself. ||155|| ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਇਆ ਤਜੀ ਤ ਕਿਆ ਭਇਆ ਜਉ ਮਾਨੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਇ ॥ Kabeer Maaeiaa Thajee Th Kiaa Bhaeiaa Jo Maan Thajiaa Nehee Jaae || Kabeer, what good is it to give up Maya, if the mortal does not give up his pride? ਮਾਨ ਮੁਨੀ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਗਲੇ ਮਾਨੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਉ ਖਾਇ ॥੧੫੬॥ Maan Munee Munivar Galae Maan Sabhai Ko Khaae ||156|| Even the silent sages and seers are destroyed by pride; pride eats up everything. ||156|| On Ang 223 Guru Nanak Dev Ji says: ਖਿਮਾ ਗਹੀ ਬ੍ਰਤੁ ਸੀਲ ਸੰਤੋਖੰ ॥ Khimaa Gehee Brath Seel Santhokhan || To practice forgiveness is the true fast, good conduct and contentment. Also, on Ang 343 Bhagat Kabir Ji says: ਬਿਨੁ ਪਰਚੈ ਨਹੀ ਥਿਰਾ ਰਹਾਇ ॥ Bin Parachai Nehee Thhiraa Rehaae || Without enlightenment, the body does not remain steady. ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਮੇਟਿ ਖਿਮਾ ਗਹਿ ਰਹਹੁ ॥ Dhubidhhaa Maett Khimaa Gehi Rehahu || So erase your duality and hold tight to forgiveness, ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕੀ ਸੂਲ ਨ ਸਹਹੁ ॥੭॥ Karam Dhharam Kee Sool N Sehahu ||7|| And you will not have to endure the torture of karma or religious rituals. ||7|| At the end of the day, you can give your friend all the advice you want, but the main thing is that he needs to determine if he can forgive her past actions and move forward with his life and build a future together with her or not. If he is unable to forgive, it's best for him to cut contact with her and save them both future heartache.

Here is a great book on the Maryada of Sri Hazur Sahib written by Jathedar Joginder Singh Ji It answers many controversies surrounding the maryada Sri Hazur Sahib Maryada Parbodh

isrIrwgu ] sireeraag || Sree Raag: qohI mohI mohI qohI AMqru kYsw ] thohee mohee mohee thohee a(n)thar kaisaa || You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us? knk kitk jl qrMg jYsw ]1] kanak kattik jal thara(n)g jaisaa ||1|| We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1|| jau pY hm n pwp krMqw Ahy Anµqw ] jo pai ham n paap kara(n)thaa ahae ana(n)thaa || If I did not commit any sins, O Infinite Lord, piqq pwvn nwmu kYsy huMqw ]1] rhwau ] pathith paavan naam kaisae hu(n)thaa ||1|| rehaao || how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause|| qum@ ju nwiek AwChu AMqrjwmI ] thumh j naaeik aashhahu a(n)tharajaamee || You are my Master, the Inner-knower, Searcher of hearts. pRB qy jnu jwnIjY jn qy suAwmI ]2] prabh thae jan jaaneejai jan thae suaamee ||2|| The servant is known by his God, and the Lord and Master is known by His servant. ||2|| srIru AwrwDY mo kau bIcwru dyhU ] sareer aaraadhhai mo ko beechaar dhaehoo || Grant me the wisdom to worship and adore You with my body. rivdws sm dl smJwvY koaU ]3] ravidhaas sam dhal samajhaavai kooo ||3|| O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3|| vaheguru vaheguru vaheguru vaheguru vaheguru amazing shabad vaheguru je bhula chuka maf