Breaking News: Sikhs Clash With Dera Sucha Sauda Followers In Punjab, 12 Injured

[rupinder singh]

Hardeep Singh, you are not alone in your thinking as I do agree with you but have remained non vocal on the issue as I really do not understand what the right outcome should be.

I don’t think anyone here disputes the actuality that Gurmeet Ram Rahim had purposely and intentionally attempted to cause offence to Sikh community in order to provoke a reaction. Whether it was to take the heat of the murder allegations or to boost his ranking in the anti Sikh circles, we may never find out. It looks like the majority on this forum see the reaction in Punjab as a positive reaction whilst the minority see at as adverse.

I have been thinking about our more recent history and looked at the assassination of nindaks like Nirankari Gurbachana and Darshan Das, their following still exists today, perhaps bigger than it was during the time those nindaks headed the groups. What throws me is what is the outcome we are driving to achieve? What is the end point of the protests in Punjab and now in other places? Is it to close down Sacha Sauda dera or promote the killing of the nindak or is it to show the world the Sikh reaction? We are now on a rolling snowball that can grow bigger and bigger, but the problem is I personally cannot make out whether that is good or bad!

i think we just got to let it be now. people are too down the road to turn back. whatever happens is meant to happen. i keep on thinking about what Guru Teghbahadur Sahib tells us.

chintaa taa kee keejee-ai jo anhonee ho-ay.

ih maarag sansaar ko naanak thir nahee ko-ay.

People become anxious, when something unexpected happens.

This is the way of the world, O Nanak; nothing is stable or permanent.

[Hardeep__singh]

Hardeep Singh, you are not alone in your thinking as I do agree with you but have remained non vocal on the issue as I really do not understand what the right outcome should be.

I don’t think anyone here disputes the actuality that Gurmeet Ram Rahim had purposely and intentionally attempted to cause offence to Sikh community in order to provoke a reaction. Whether it was to take the heat of the murder allegations or to boost his ranking in the anti Sikh circles, we may never find out. It looks like the majority on this forum see the reaction in Punjab as a positive reaction whilst the minority see at as adverse.

I have been thinking about our more recent history and looked at the assassination of nindaks like Nirankari Gurbachana and Darshan Das, their following still exists today, perhaps bigger than it was during the time those nindaks headed the groups. What throws me is what is the outcome we are driving to achieve? What is the end point of the protests in Punjab and now in other places? Is it to close down Sacha Sauda dera or promote the killing of the nindak or is it to show the world the Sikh reaction? We are now on a rolling snowball that can grow bigger and bigger, but the problem is I personally cannot make out whether that is good or bad!

Dont worry, I have been and have had mixed feelings until I saw the line, Waheguru Naam Jahaj heh, Charay So utray Phar, Joo shardha Koh Semdhay uparan tarn har! (hope i got the right, bhul chuk maaf)

Meaning if we sing the lords name with full faith we can achieve anything, take example of Baba Bandha Singh Bahadhur, he had so much power and won alot of battles, he even tried on the first introduction to His honliness Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj, try to over throw him off the manji, but was not able to do so because Maharaj ji had so much bakhti and spiritual power that no one else on the earth could match his abilities because the naam was soaked already in our Guru, even before he took the role of coming to earth i.e hemkunt.

Now can you imagine if we ALL as sikhs did Naam Simran with full faith, with true colours, imagine the fauj that will be created, no one would be able to over throw us at all, we wudnt need to do protests, we would only need to look at the enemies and overthrow them, no wonder Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, our beloved father won all the battles, not a single one lost, all to his supreme power through Bhakthi, we need Sikhs more or less like this and then we can face the enemy in any way shape or form!

And looking at the world as it is now, people diguised in proper sikhi clothing etc, who bark out loud havent an ounce of anything in them, yet they are ready to weild the sword. In Guru Sahibs time, all were told to learn Gurbani and do Simran. Look at Baba Deep Singh ji, so much shakthi, he put his head on one hand and fought, I mean thats a big WOW!

We need SIKHS like this and we have very few. No wonder we can't realise Guru ji at all in this day and age, we are all full of ego, pride, wordly attachments etc.....we only want one thing Sikh Homeland on this very GOD earth, I personally would like a home purchased by naam in the true home where we all end up going.

Fateh

[Prem]

Yes indeed Hardeep, you make some very wise insights. All we can do is hope and pray that this is not a harbinger of things to come --- the dark days of the 1980's when darkness ruled the Earth for Sikhs.

Too many twisted agendas at play here to celebrate as some excitable bedroom warriors are doing.

Guru Fateh

[Sarbloh]

Personally I ask the Sangat to stop this nonesense and forget about the protests, INSTEAD, go the Gurdwara where ever you are and do Naam Simran, like Guru Arjun Dev ji says, Naam will end the violence once and for all, the protest will achieve nothing and will only let others know about whats going on, and perhaps some of us will be talked about and made a fool too.

However if the protest is held peacefully and nicely with simran then I think this is a good way odf showinf support.

Naam Simran is the only way out! Personally thinking and Guru ji's thinking. Shaanti will not be obtained through mass gatherings, only naam will liberate all.

In this thread also I would like to add:

Saach Shabad bin mukti na hoyee: Without realizing the True Shabad or Naam, no one will be liberated (sggs 938).

Uttam karnee Shabad beechaar: The ultimate action is reflections on the Shabad i.e., Vichaar or inner inquiry (sggs 158).

The question is: how can one go about doing it? As we know it, the organized religious places are plagued with corruption, selfishness, hatred, differences, conflicts, madness of "Jaat Paat", violence, fanaticism, ignorance, and so on; leading to a total disregard for the dissemination of the Gurbani (SGGS) in its true perspective. Although may be not all, but the calculated focus of the so called "Giaanees", "Bhaaees", "Raagees", "Sants", "Granthees", "Baabaas", "Pardhaans", "Parchaaraks", "Pujaarees or Priests", "Paathees" (professional SGGS readers), etc., seems to be none other than using the pretext of the religion for material gains -- lust, money, name, fame, power, status, prestige etc.

No one is my enemy, and no one is a stranger. I get along with everyone. Guru Arjan Dev, Raag Kaanraa, 1299

In the peaceful poise of intuitive bliss, violence will be gone, as we sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe. Guru Arjan, Raag Gauree, 249

Waheguru! Hardeep Singh I feel better for reading your posts. Thanks.

[N30S1NGH]

some interesting points by kulbir singh of tapoban

Author: Kulbir Singh

Date: 05-18-07 05:26

The anger towards Sacha Sauda Dera is not purely because of the most recent action taken by Gurmit Ram Rahim the baba of this dera. The roots of this latest agitation by Sikhs lie in the years of provocations done by this dera. For years, Sikhs have been upset at their distortation of Gurbani and targeting gullible Sikhs and brainwashing them. Gurmit Ram Rahim mimicking Guru Sahib is just the last straw that broke the camel’s back. Before this, there have been many wrongdoings from their side.

From what I have heard from Punjab, after losing up to 20 seats in the last elections because of Sacha Sauda effect, the Akalis decided to neutralize this cult and therefore the Dharam Parchar committee of SGPC started doing parchaar of Sikhi in full force in the strongholds of this dera i.e. Bathinda, Mansa and other parts of Malwa. Not taking this very well, the cult leaders did this latest provocation of mimicking Siri Guru Kalgidhar Patshah jee.

It may be true that the Badal Akali Dal may be into it for political reasons but nevertheless, it is still good for the Panth because it has brought unity in Panth and it may force the Sikhs to look within and become better Sikhs. Here are some points that I would like to make with respect to this event:

1) This event has brought unity in Khalsa Panth. In the recent past, this kind of unity has rarely been displayed by Panth. May Guru Sahib do kirpa and Panth may always stay united.

2) I have never witnessed such good media coverage in India, for Sikhs. Almost always the media has been biased against Sikhs but in this case, they are positively covering the Sikh side of events and most of the media has condemned the Dera’s activities.

3) The statements of support from Hindus organizations like RSS, Bajrang Dal and others is a positive step. It does not matter whether they are doing this for some ulterior motive. The truth of the matter is that it is good to hear them praise Siri Guru Gobind Singh jeee and support Sikhs in this battle. By the same token, support from leftist parties and pro-communist parties is also a good thing. Even Congress MPs in the centre have expressed anguish at Dera’s activities. BJP MPs arguing in favour of Sikhs, in the parliament, was good.

4) I have not heard a single statement from Sardar Simranjit Singh Mann and it is pretty sad that at the time of such grave situation, he is fighting non-issues like installation of Beant Singh’s statue in Jalandhar. He has now ended up in jail and thus unable to be fighting for Sikhs. Involvement of Daljit Singh Bittu has been positive.

5) I have heard some shouting anti-Badal slogans and others shouting Khalistan slogans. I believe that this is not the right time and right place for such slogans. It will give the media and anti-Sikh politicians a chance to defame Sikhs. The police too will get an excuse to arrest and suppress this perfectly democratic and peaceful agitation against an anti-Sikh cult leader.

6) Dhadrian and all Sant-Mahatma along with leaders of all Sikh organizations were present at Damdama Sahib. I have heard that Mann Singh Pehowa said that whoever would cut off the head of the cult leader would receive one crore ruppees prize from him.

7) Comparing the Sikh sants with this dera leader is a very far fetched thing. Dhadrian has never mimicked Guru Sahib by making his own amrit or doing other such anti-Gurmat stuff. He did wear chamkeelay clothes but I don't think the idea was to imitate Guru Sahib and he has apologised for committing this mistake.

Just my thoughts.

Kulbir Singh

[rupinder singh]

Dont worry, I have been and have had mixed feelings until I saw the line, Waheguru Naam Jahaj heh, Charay So utray Phar, Joo shardha Koh Semdhay uparan tarn har! (hope i got the right, bhul chuk maaf)

Meaning if we sing the lords name with full faith we can achieve anything, take example of Baba Bandha Singh Bahadhur, he had so much power and won alot of battles, he even tried on the first introduction to His honliness Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj, try to over throw him off the manji, but was not able to do so because Maharaj ji had so much bakhti and spiritual power that no one else on the earth could match his abilities because the naam was soaked already in our Guru, even before he took the role of coming to earth i.e hemkunt.

Now can you imagine if we ALL as sikhs did Naam Simran with full faith, with true colours, imagine the fauj that will be created, no one would be able to over throw us at all, we wudnt need to do protests, we would only need to look at the enemies and overthrow them, no wonder Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, our beloved father won all the battles, not a single one lost, all to his supreme power through Bhakthi, we need Sikhs more or less like this and then we can face the enemy in any way shape or form!

And looking at the world as it is now, people diguised in proper sikhi clothing etc, who bark out loud havent an ounce of anything in them, yet they are ready to weild the sword. In Guru Sahibs time, all were told to learn Gurbani and do Simran. Look at Baba Deep Singh ji, so much shakthi, he put his head on one hand and fought, I mean thats a big WOW!

We need SIKHS like this and we have very few. No wonder we can't realise Guru ji at all in this day and age, we are all full of ego, pride, wordly attachments etc.....we only want one thing Sikh Homeland on this very GOD earth, I personally would like a home purchased by naam in the true home where we all end up going.

Fateh

am i wrong, but aint this how singhs should think! thanks hardeep singh! waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

[just a soul]

Oh no!!!! I'll still be at work!!!! What time will this finish? I'll drive like a maniac :devil: We should all make sure we attend!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sgurbir]

:devil:

Waheguru ji ka khalsa

Waheguru ji kee Fateh

What kind of crap is this , this lady knows nothin about khalsa and keeping barking about the little knowledge what so ever she has, on the other hand THE LADY WHO CUTS HER HAIR AND KEEPS GURUGRANTH SAHIB IN HER HOME , HOW DARE SHE DOES THAT ? SHE GOT HER SON NAMED NANAK AND SHE IS A BIGGEST THREAT TO HERSELF , SHE IS TRYING TO BE MODERN WOMEN , BUT SHE HERSELF DONT KNOW ABOUT HER OWNSELF, SHE IS BLOODY SELFCENTERED WOMAN , THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WHEN I REALLY WANTED TO MEET THIS B****H AND TEACH HER THE WAY SHE IS SUPPOSEED LIVE HER LIFE , I CANT TOLRATE THESE KIND OF WOMAN,

Saad Sangat Please forgive me for my language , but this is the only reason why sikhi is detoriating everywhere becuase mother is the first teacher of family and if she herself doesnt have faith or desnt follow the rules and regulation of sikhism how can she expect her kids to know and follow religion, i pray to akal purukh please dont send these kinds of women to our religion as she is not supposed to be called MA.

Coz daas firmly belives that a women should be called ma if only she can give birth to warior or sant ,

Saad Sangat ji if someone can ask this very lady if she has got faith in Guru Nanak Dev ji , why cant she understand the teachings of our guru and why the hell she cant follwo them as well .

And as long as these channels are concerned , we can easily make out that they are trying to advertise JHUTA DERA people and trying to prove that SGPC should not be the body to relgulate our religion, BUT LET ME ASK THESE PEOPLE WHAT THEY THINK ABT US , WE CANT BE HINDU AS WE HAVE TO FOLLOW SOME PRINCIPALS AND IF DONT FOLLOW THEM THEN WE ARE <admin-profanity filter activated> WHY BECAUSE OUR FATHER IS GURU GOBIND SINGH AND IF WE DONT RESPECT HIS TEACHIGNS AND TRY FOLLOW SOMEONE ELSE THAT MEANS WE LL TWO FATHER AND A KID WHO HAS GOT TWO FATHER IS SIMPLY BASTERD ,

BHUL CHUK MAAF SAADH SANGAT JI

Waheguru ji ka khalsa

Waheguru ji kee fateh

[Hardeep__singh]

I wanted to share this with the Sangat so I am going to let you know the power of Naam, the reality and evidence in todays world.

My father Sahib told me not along ago that Naam is like water and our sins are like dhal (lentils) when we wash our Dhal with water we clear the dirt and we left with clean dhal, and its just the same with our bodies, we clean it with Naam.

Anyway, My father was a witness and so was alot of my relatives. My fathers Fufhar, was a very humble man, he was fed by Naam and not by food, he was the ultimate as we say 'Brahm Gyani', so much nimerta in him he never ever used to say bad things, he was highly spiritual being, anyway death knocks on everyones door, the way a person goes is totally different, here it goes. Fathers Fufhar ji, Braham Gyani knew when his death would come, he then told his son who lived in Uk at the time, that should he wish to see his father he should come now because he said death is knocking at my door.

The son was very busy at the time and told his father he will see him soon, Ok said the Fufhar, he said 'Chalo hor Sheh minhi lay la ghay' meaning he will tell the people who would take him that he will have 6 months more. But some how the son arrived to see is father early, there was lot of the family gathered in to the room to see what he had to say. The Fufhar then said Ok I dont need the six months that I required to see my son.

He then said to everyone, he has come on this earth before as father and son so many times, but he said where I will be going now, none of you will be able to reach, he said does anyone have any questions, no body answered, he then said ok I will tell you when I will go, he turned his back towards the wall, and when he did beanti that he doesnt wish to stay on this earth, he waved at his family saying waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh and went to his eternal home.

He chose when he wanted to die, he had so much Naam, the power of telling the people who were going take him when he wished to leave.

When my father told me this, my gob was down near my stomach and I was like WOW. See how much shakti it has......very few people...and I mean very few people are like this...or who are willing to take this path......

Waheguru Naam Jahaj heh!

[N30S1NGH]

As i said earlier energy should be directed towards finding this cult leader not intimidating, beating up this cult leader followers, they are brainwashed and misguided, its the main culprit we should after, lets not repeat the same mistakes we did during militancy times, which is kill innocent people just because they were just hindu or followers of heretic nirankari sect. And I dont need any one to tell me to prove it, its was our singhs not black cats, i m pass that same bullocks being fed all time, its about time we accept some responsiblity, acknowledgement and learn from the past mistakes which is usage of unjustifed force against innocent civlians to releif your frustrations, repression, oppression. Direct your energy to find this culprit, give him three warnings to do appoplize and present himself infront of akaal takth and receive tankhiya, thats why akaal takth jathedars, sant samaj leaders are hoping to acheive which is resolve this as true sant-sipahi instead of others who are sorry to say letting their sipahihood devolving their santhood. Brandishing swords infront of cult leaders brainwashed followers - womens, childrens, regular joe blow banda who just want this fake baba blessing its not going to help the suitation, why sikhs are after followers, i just dont get it, go after the main source.

Worst thing could possibly happen- 20 sikhs one side get killed, 20 cult followers get killed, main culprit is still alive and still watching tamasha on t.v in his comfort zone with no remorse with heavy police protection. What did we acheive? jack sh!t, this is exactly what happened in miltancy time where main culprits gets away and watch the tamasha of unncessary kilings of innocent people from both sides.

If sikhs miltancy organization can be infltrated with some black cats, agents of GOI. why cant this dera be infltrated by singhs in later time and take action against this cult leader? This dera already have full fledged kesh dhara followers In these type of suitations because of heavy police protection its hard to take that enemy out.

So my advice, is be calm, lets not unsheat our swords infront of dera followers and let media manipulate the stories which is showing one side angry radical sikhs (as they put it) unsheating swords and other side helpless women all scared and waiting to get out. This is not going to help the suitation at all.

I understand that i m not in india to see the real picture. However, to win over dharam yudh you have to use your mind, thinking with swords doesnt work in these circumstances where on the other side culprit is hidding somewhere not infront of the face, there is a reason guru sahib told us to read scriptures like sri dasam granth and rajnithi text - chankaya and other text related to full rajnithi.

Anyway rest is up to singhs from india. Here is my previous post:

This is my opnion, shouldnt treated as a maryada or anything..lol. This is what i have understood from dharam yudh maryada in khalsa tradition, please correct me if i m wrong off course by giving an example from history:

It all comes down to an balance- have a compassion yes, peaceful protest yes but dont be full pacifist either where some tom, <admin-profanity filter activated>, harry gets away with dressing up like sri guru gobind singh ji and try to copy and mock sri guru gobind singh ji and amrit sanchar started by sri guru gobind singh ji.

There shouldnt be no violent protestors damaging property , no burning effigies, no intimidiation to this cult leader "followers" who are simply misguided/brainwashed they are innocent people, leave them alone.

All the energy from sikh jatha's, samparda's groups should be used towards warnings to this leader for dare consquences if he doesnt appolize and present himself infront of 5 takth jathedars receive tankiya punishment ie- read x amount of japji sahib, spent x hrs to do seva, do jooriya di seva so that he can repent his sins in house of God(templete/gurdwara/church or should be tried if found guilty -jail for rape,murder allegations against him), After he repent his sins, there shouldnt be any personal hatred, animosity towards him and should be treated as brothers.

If he doesnt appolize to sikh sangat for his mistake, give him 2 strike and give him final strike after that no more negotiations, find him and get an nihang singh or guru ka singh and destroy him with *NOT* revenge or pleasure but compassion(followed by ardas, may he repent his sins and may god forgive him for mocking his dasa- sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj), body should be returned with an respect to his family for final antim rituals.