Confused, again?!

[Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I have been reading about Islam recently. Their concept of Tawheed is very clear cut and simple. The names and attributes of Allah, the unity of His worship and His Lordship. They believe Allah is separate from creation, yet He is close to man, as close as his 'jugular vein'. Every aspect of Islam, from Salah (prayers) to the proofs of Tawheed seems to be very logical and appealing to the mind. Every possible question is answered. I have found this is attractive to those seeking answers because of a restless mind. This is perhaps why many people who have lived life in the very extreme (without spirituality) convert to Islam. They are attracted by the simple concepts and rules.

I always thought Islam was deviod of spirituality, but it seems they have a concept called 'Taqwaa' which means spirituality or piety, coupled with Eemaan (faith).

For Sikhs, I dont think we are able to explain our religion so well. It is very sad, and I know I was not able to give a simple answer to what the goal for a Sikh is?! I was faced with more questions than I could answer, after trying to explain 'merging with Waheguru'. They believe, for example, that this was a Greek influenced Sufi innovation, the idea of 'Fanaa' which literally means to reach union with Allah. They say that this is the case with Hinduism, and this and reincarnation forms the basis for Sikhism, proving that Sikhi is incorporating old, unproven ideas from eastern religions with no origin.

They say the soul is breathed into man by Allah's angels, but the Rooh (soul) is not part of Allah (as we do), but it is in fact a creati

on of Allah, under His command, it's not as if he broke of pieces of Himself and infused it into man. They say if man has Allah inside of Him, why does he not worship monkeys? Does it befit Allah's majesty if we believe He is inside ALL creation, and which includes faeces and other human waste? If He is within us, then we are within Heaven, which negates their whole goal in life.

The number of times I've been called a Sufi!

In addition to this, they believe as Mohammad was the seal of all Prophets, the question of a new religion arising doesn't even arise.

All these questions are slowly driving me towards insanity. I can't sleep anymore. It seems silly, but I'm so confused. Why is it that all of our Sikhs sites on the net have different concepts, Ragmala or not?! Keski or not?! So many distinctions, so many divisions, how will we achieve unity this way?! Muslims, may be divided but they treat each other as brothers and sisters, it's incredible to see how close their communities are. We even disagree on basic things like Rehat Marayada, and I don't know about anyone else, but I've been misled countless times by reading wrong translations of Gurbani in English, which is so dangerous. There seems to be a different version on each site.

It's so frustrating, I want to be able to explain my faith, first and foremost to myself, and then to others, Sikhs or non-Sikhs. All these divisions, Tat Khalsa, Nanaksar, AKJ, Namdhari's, etc etc. What will happen to our furture?!

I don't know whether to wear a Dastar, and I don't think I will ever know, everyone has their own opinions. I don't know who to ask when I have doubts about Sikhi, when I ask my family they tell me I should stay quiet, do Paath and not concern myself with this 'philosophical rubbish'. Every week someone is probably contemplating converting to Islam because they can't explain something they believe in so much, is this normal!? Why are we so polit

ically correct? Let's start our own 'conversion tactics', if it means building up a foundation which no one can challenge, an explanation of Sikhi which is irrefutable, surely we have that much faith in Gurbani? I can't explain how Waheguru is in everything, meaning He has changed before creation, isn't change imperfection?

I apologise for offending anyone in writing this, I guess I'm very frustrated and emotional at the moment. Please forgive me. I implore my Sikh brothers and sisters, to think about what we are doing to ourselves, is it worth it?

Gurfateh

[Akaali]

Waheguroo!!

Well, bhainji, I know how you feel, as I've been in numerous discussions with Muslims, about spirituality, etc.

Here's the thing, one of the most basic fundamentals in Islam, is to "convert" non-muslims, into being a muslim, by doing this they will get heaven, or some sort of "reward", now say for example, you're trying to convince someone really hard, and you'll do anything to make them reason.

To win in a discussion, find out the person's weak points, and their beleifs, use that against them, to make them think, they're wrong and I'm right. Now, muslims don't concentrate on the aspect of "spirituality" much, if they did their whole lives will be centered around it, like ours. So in this case, they're just using our basic fundamentals against us, by saying it existed centuries ago, SO WHAT? Its not like, anyone put their stamp on spirituality saying they're the only ones who can use it.

In sikhi, you're suppose to do constant meditation, e.g. remembering God. There are numerous types of meditation, and this is one. In Islam, most muslims aren't taught to beleive they should remember God with every breath, whereas in Sikhi, if you want to reach that high level of spirituality, you must remember God at all times. Its nearly impossible to remember God at all times for a human, but practice makes perfect, if you put your effort, you will slowly reach that stage.

[Guest mehtab]

Well said Khalsa jee

This is the 3rd time i m gonna say what i m gonna say...1st was at sikhawareness and second was when i pasted it here...i was myself on the verge of converting to islam at the age of 15 and i cannot see a fellow sikh brother/sister fall prey to their cheap tactics...

saihajleen bhainjee, as u know, that to wreck something, u have to bomb its very foundation...therefore, juz ask them these few questions and see their response (now this is what i m repeating) :

(1) mohammad was revealed the quran by an angel...how do we know it was an angel or someone/something else??? SGGS came to the Gurus from AKAL PURKH HIMSelf...muslims gonna disagree coz their god is supposedly sitting on a throne in the 7th heaven and so how can some1 communicate with GOD in a state of samadhi!!!...so then who is right? the ones who worship AKAL PURKH or those who worship some1 sitting on a throne (Guru Nanak's defition of Allah is totally different from what muslims say...i think so). Now by questioning the quran, u are shaking their very foundations!!!

(2) Guru Gobind Singh was a scholar of around 14 languages...mohammad was illiterate. Now by questioning the authenticity of their prophet, u are shaking their foundations once again!!!

(3) SGGS is the ONLY scripture in this whole world that was written by the founders during their lifetimes (i.e by Gurujee). quran was written later on by i think usman...now imagine allah revealing the quran to the angel gabriel/jibraeel and then he tells it to mohammad and mohammad reveals it to usman and then usman write

s it down...how much info u think will be missed out (lol...that was a joke). So once again u question the quran and bombard their very foundation!!

i have a lot of respect for all religions and their prophets but i take a step back when they try to mess around , especially with sikhs/sikhi!! imagine all those shaheeds who were brutally tortured by these same people in the name of religion. everytime i think of those shaheeds, no matter how much logical or sensible islam may seem to be, all i know is that those shaheeds had something way way way better to give their life for, and that is SIKHI !!!!! the shaheedi of so many singhs and singhnees juz puts 1 question : what did they have that they were ready to give up their life for, and that too in a barbaric way!!!...answer : SIKHI...what did they have that they even had to see their loved ones killed in the most inhuman manner? SIKHI!!!!...and for a few made up arguments that explain scientific stuff or anything that u find appealing, its never never ever worth giving up ur beliefs!!! and definitely NOT if ur belief is SIKHI!!!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Of course God is in his creation, we once were a part of him and our goal is to unite with him, even spiritual people who follow no particular religon know this. How do they know this? How do birds make such beautiful nests and know how to take care of their children, they don't go to bird school, they have Gyan. Only way to get Gyan is from our almighty creator.

Read the best seller 'the Seat of the Soul" by Gary Zukay, that will get you thinking and answer alot of your questions.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

I just have a question:

Why is it hard to explain your faith to others? All we have to tell them is we believe in 1 God who created countless worlds and forms and resides in his creation, once walls of falsehood are broken he is realised.

If they ask why we wear 5 K's then we just tell them in order to enroll in the school of Khalsa you must also wear the uniform, this is giving your head to Guru Sahib who will show you the way to Vahiguru.

I don't get it, is is really that hard to explain?

[Ryu Hayabusa]

They say that this is the case with Hinduism, and this and reincarnation forms the basis for Sikhism, proving that Sikhi is incorporating old, unproven ideas from eastern religions with no origin.

They say the soul is breathed into man by Allah's angels, but the Rooh (soul) is not part of Allah (as we do), but it is in fact a creation of Allah, under His command, it's not as if he broke of pieces of Himself and infused it into man.

I don't know who you are hanging around but this sangat is not good for your spirituality. LOL they say reincarnation is unproven but there have been numerous documented cases where little kids remember everything about their past life. Let's see them prove that heaven is the goal, I wish them luck. About God breaking pieces of himself to infuse into man, that just seems ridiculous how they are trying to make it look, can light ever be broken into pieces?

Also why would we worship monkeys? We worship The Formless Timeless creator's naam not his creations.

[V]

Good responses by theguydude man and Rochak BHaji

Also.... Reincarnation is a SCIENTIFICALLY PROVED PHENOMENA..its a FACT not a theory or something.. ..

How do I know ..I been through it

nah..

but this site is made by a CHRISTIAN..with PLENTY OF EVIDENCE for reincarnation:

http://near-death.com/

It includes proof such as,near death experiences...

hypnosis etc

just click on the 'scientific evidence'

bhull chukk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[S1ngh]

how about stay away from these muslim ppls.. ?

[Balait_da_Sher]

how about stay away from these muslim ppls.. ?

same here, stay away from them and stick to like minded indviduals.

It's so frustrating, I want to be able to explain my faith, first and foremost to myself, and then to others, Sikhs or non-Sikhs. All these divisions, Tat Khalsa, Nanaksar, AKJ, Namdhari's, etc etc. What will happen to our furture?!

Bhen ji how will you be able to do that if you read up on islam, and get confused, instead of reading up on sikhism and becoming more knowledgable about sikhi.

As for jathas, different rehats and the future, dont think about them. Sikhi says that no one is going to go with you at the end so its all about "you and your waheguru".

As for the future how you gonna have any impact on the future if you go mad.

So stay in chardi kalla and try to be in good samgat. ( by that i am not saying that the muslims are bad, they have their belefs and we have ours )

[Deep Singh]

well, Bhainji you have great thoughts! i can say that you should continue reading philosophy, and start also with western thought, old hindu thoughts besides islam. that would surely give you sound knowledge. every human who has loves to find the truth, he she will always want to know what ppl before him or her have said about these matters.

Bhainji Guru Sahib say that also after reading lots of philosophical literature our soul cannot change. true! we may get lots of knowledge, but our souls changes only with Naam. (i am only a hypocrate who has heard this from Gursikhs of this forum) So i think the 'best' way we have to 'counter' their conversion techniques is start with Naam. Start reading Guru Granth Sahib and reflecting upon Gurbani. maybe we should change ourselves first. true jee, i believe 'every' Sikhs can say that they love Gurbani so much, but we do not have the Gian to say anything about it. and this Gian, the true knowledge comes from Naam. So we should as i said change ourselves first. it would be great if we can get hold of various Viakyas of Gurbani. then we can learn about Sikh philosophy too.

The question about God outside creation is the basic creed of Islam. it is natural that they have a great emphasis upon that. it is just like Giani ji speaking about Muul Mantar in 5 hours. this is what makes islam seperate from christianity, ie jesus is not son of god...so on.

[JSingh]

These are the two posts from Sikhnet Discussion Forum:

Dear Khan bhaji, Sat Sri Akal

There are some things we cannot overlook. If we look in history, the islam had been forcefully converting people into Islam for centuries. They gave only two choices: convert to islam or die. A friend of mine who goes to the same university came from England and he sometimes tells me what is happening there. The muslim organizations pay the muslim guys for converting hindu and sikh girls into islam. What's up with Ladki Punjaban? It is not pakistani thing, but muslim thing because they convert girls to islam by engaging them into their so called love cycle. We are taught to live and let live peacefully and Sikhism does seek conversions as islam does. It is not pakistani thing that motivates muslims to play with hindu and sikh girls. It is something else:

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful. (9:5)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers." (5:51)

"Believers, do not make friends with anyone but your own people." (3:118) and "Believe in none except those that follow your own religion." (3:73)

"He that chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be the one of the lost." (3:86)

At the end, it is not your problem bro, but somethi

ng that we failed to teach our daughters. We failed to teach them what Sikhi is and how to live as a Sikh. These girls were never taught anything about the unique history of their wonderful religion. But times are changing now. We always want to live with peace with each and every person in the world. We should not be blaming muslims guys for what they are doing because they are doing only what they are taught, the fault is on our side that we failed to teach what we were supposed to teach to our girls.

please apologize me if i hurt you in any way.

Jaswant Singh

http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....EB?OpenDocument

Dear Khan Ji, thanks for writing back. It is great that you are taking an opportunity to learn about Sikhi.

But I have a question when you said, "The Quran was written by the prophet Muhammed ( peace be upon him ) by way of revalations from God through the angel Jibraeel.". But I don't think thats true. Koran was written after Muhammed's death. Mohammad did not write it. Max Arthur Macauliffe, British Historian wrote:

"The Sikh religion differs as regard the authenticity of its dogmas from other great theological systems. Many of the great teachers the world has known have not left a line of their own composition, and we only know what they taught through tradition or secondhand information. We know the teachings of the Socrates only through the writings of Plato and Xenophan. Buddha has left no written memorials of his teachings. Kung-fu-zu, known to Europeans as Confucius left no documents in which he detailed the principals of his moral and social system. The Founder of Christianity did not reduce his doctrines to writing and for them we are obliged to trust to the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Arabian Prophet did not himself reduce to writing the chapters of the Quran. They were written or

compiled by his adherents and followers. But the compositions of the Sikh Gurus are preserved, and we know at first hand what they taught. They employed the vehicle of verse, which is generally unalterable by copyists, and we even become in time familiar with their different styles. No spurious compositions or extraneous dogmas can, therefore, be represented as theirs… As we shal see hereafter, it would be difficult to point to a religion of greater originality or to a more comprehensive ethical system."

Mohsin Ji, you wrote "In my opinion forced conversions are wrong, Islam is a faith, those coersed into conversion cannot be faithful to Islam and those forcing conversion therefore cannot be true Muslims." But these people make forced conversions becuase Koran motivates them, as you can see in the quotes below. Then how come they are not muslims if they follow Koran? Lets say, for example, if one muslim stops following Koran and therefore, stops forcing conversions, then is he still a muslims?

The question is not who is muslim or who is not, why they force conversion. This is a very serious problem that the world was and is facing today. Innocent, ignorant, and helpless people were and are being forced to convert to Islam.

In my opinion, there are many offensive quotes in Koran (some of them are listed below). After reading these, I don't think that anyone would agree that "The Quran was written by the prophet Muhammed ( peace be upon him ) by way of revalations from God through the angel Jibraeel." It would be extremely hard for a wise man to even think that how can God say such things. If the Koran is witten by Mohammad, as you said, then, in my opinion, these are not revalations from God, but Mohammad's own teachings, becuase God will never say these things.

"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say:

39;Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a

wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [islam] to make it triumphant over all re

ligions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a <admin-profanity filter activated>...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

Islam and Women

In the Koran (4.34) it is written:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made

the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart; and scourge (beat) them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

In addition to the Koran, Mohammed's teachings are included in the Hadith. Next to the Koran, is is the most important part of Islamic law, its teachings are just as binding. The following quotes from the Hadith are from the "Sahih Al-Bukhari". In volume 3:826 of Sahih Al-Bukhari Muhammed is quoted as explaining why a witness of a woman is equal to half that of a man. He said

This is because of the deficiency of the woman's mind.

Mohammed also quoted as saying that:

I was shown the Hell-fire and the majority of its dwellers are women 1:28,301;2:161,7:124

and that:

I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women 7:33

Sura 4:34 of the Koran says, “Men are the managers of the affairs of women . . . Those women who are rebellious — admonish them, banish them to their couches, and beat them.”

If a woman's conduct is mischievous or immodest, the husband has the right to beat her up (Tirmzi P439)

It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (Tirmzi P 430)

A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father

A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (Tirmzi P 432)

She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (Tirmzi P 265)

A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than

RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (Tirmzi P 300)

If prostration were a legitimate act other than to God, woman should have prostrated to her husband. (Tirmzi P 42

If a man is in a mood to have <admin-profanity filter activated> <admin-profanity filter activated> the woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (Tirmzi P 42

A woman who seeks KHULA i.e. divorce from her man, without a just cause, shall not enter paradise. (Tirmzi P 440) A husband can divorce his wife at will.

Majority of women would go to hell. (Muslim P 1431)

If a woman refuses to come to bed when invited by her husband, she becomes the target of the curses of angels. Exactly the same happens if she deserts her husband's bed. (Bukhari P 93)

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http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....69?OpenDocument

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/koran.html

http://www.primechoice.com/philosophy/women.htm

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