Christmas

[gur06]

why wud we wana celebrate christmas, aint we got Vaisakhi, Gurpurbs.etc to celebrate.

Why try and b christians 4 the day and celebrate that has NOTHING 2 do with US.

Yh fair enough respect it but dont go CRAZY ova it, how many non-sikhs do you know dats respects Vaisakhi (dats if they even no wat it is.)

Bhul Chuk Marf

[Quest4Akal]

I dont think anyone here actually celebrates Christmas - in the christian way. Seems like most people enjoy the holidays, put up a tree , etc.

I am almost positive that no one hear drinks 'jesus's blood' or goes to 'mass'.

---- It comes down to whether you think a Sikh can enjoy 'non-sikh' holidays.

That is up for debate, will it effect you spiritually or not, thats a choice that has to be made on an individual level. I know personally I love the christmas holidays, the days off are great.

--- Also I'd be careful to proclaim anyone a Sant, including Jesus Christ. We have know way of knowing whether Jesus was a Sant or not.

--- end of the day, none of this is relevant. At the end its a relationship between you and Guru Sahib. And yes it is a sacrifice, a sacrifice of LOVE --- and that love is what drives rehit, not the other way around. You can follow every possible rehit out there, but until you have that love from within, until you realize god within, until you start nurturing your soul (simran, bani), - everything you will have done will be useless.

Look at these other religions they think if they follow a certain rehit, they will get to heaven, if they dont they will go to hell. Guru Sahib said its all about remembrance of god, love for god 24/7, and I believe from that will flow REHIT.... and without the first part - the rest is useless

-- now how Christmas effects your relationship with god, is personal to you, and only you. whoever comes on and makes rules that a sikh can celebrate this, and cant celebrate that... is in a dangerous cycle and missing the point

As for this person ^^^^^ that was BEAUTIFUL. Honestly God bless you singh.

why wud we wana celebrate christmas, aint we got Vaisakhi, Gurpurbs.etc to celebrate.

Why try and b christians 4 the day and celebrate that has NOTHING 2 do with US.

Yh fair enough respect it but dont go CRAZY ova it, how many non-sikhs do you know dats respects Vaisakhi (dats if they even no wat it is.)

Bhul Chuk Marf

Just wanted to add, to the quote above ummm whats wrong with doing simran on xmas for a celeberation of the life a spiritual being. And to say don't celeberate because they don't celeberate ours. Well how does it hurt if u do simran on that day. and saying don't do it cause they don't is like saying we shouldn't say nanak naam chardi kala terai bhaunai sarbatt da bhalla, because the whole world doesn't pray for sikhs. Sikhi is a totally different way totally different path a path filled with un-paralelled sacrifice and UNCONDITIONAL love for humanity. Unconditional meaning no conditions attached if that person wants the worst for me i will still not harbour hatered in my heart for him. I may have to stand against him if someone is being opressed but a sikh never has hatered in his heart. So what i'm saying is your arguement of they don't celeberate it so we shouldn't does not sit well with me.

And as for my friend babbar shere I'm so happy your not getting involved in a heated discussion with your last posts, shows a lot of pyaar. Good job my friend :nihungsmile:

[gur06]

I dont think anyone here actually celebrates Christmas - in the christian way. Seems like most people enjoy the holidays, put up a tree , etc.

I am almost positive that no one hear drinks 'jesus's blood' or goes to 'mass'.

---- It comes down to whether you think a Sikh can enjoy 'non-sikh' holidays.

That is up for debate, will it effect you spiritually or not, thats a choice that has to be made on an individual level. I know personally I love the christmas holidays, the days off are great.

--- Also I'd be careful to proclaim anyone a Sant, including Jesus Christ. We have know way of knowing whether Jesus was a Sant or not.

--- end of the day, none of this is relevant. At the end its a relationship between you and Guru Sahib. And yes it is a sacrifice, a sacrifice of LOVE --- and that love is what drives rehit, not the other way around. You can follow every possible rehit out there, but until you have that love from within, until you realize god within, until you start nurturing your soul (simran, bani), - everything you will have done will be useless.

Look at these other religions they think if they follow a certain rehit, they will get to heaven, if they dont they will go to hell. Guru Sahib said its all about remembrance of god, love for god 24/7, and I believe from that will flow REHIT.... and without the first part - the rest is useless

-- now how Christmas effects your relationship with god, is personal to you, and only you. whoever comes on and makes rules that a sikh can celebrate this, and cant celebrate that... is in a dangerous cycle and missing the point

As for this person ^^^^^ that was BEAUTIFUL. Honestly God bless you singh.

why wud we wana celebrate christmas, aint we got Vaisakhi, Gurpurbs.etc to celebrate.

Why try and b christians 4 the day and celebrate that has NOTHING 2 do with US.

Yh fair enough respect it but dont go CRAZY ova it, how many non-sikhs do you know dats respects Vaisakhi (dats if they even no wat it is.)

Bhul Chuk Marf

Just wanted to add, to the quote above ummm whats wrong with doing simran on xmas for a celeberation of the life a spiritual being. And to say don't celeberate because they don't celeberate ours. Well how does it hurt if u do simran on that day. and saying don't do it cause they don't is like saying we shouldn't say nanak naam chardi kala terai bhaunai sarbatt da bhalla, because the whole world doesn't pray for sikhs. Sikhi is a totally different way totally different path a path filled with un-paralelled sacrifice and UNCONDITIONAL love for humanity. Unconditional meaning no conditions attached if that person wants the worst for me i will still not harbour hatered in my heart for him. I may have to stand against him if someone is being opressed but a sikh never has hatered in his heart. So what i'm saying is your arguement of they don't celeberate it so we shouldn't does not sit well with me.

And as for my friend babbar shere I'm so happy your not getting involved in a heated discussion with your last posts, shows a lot of pyaar. Good job my friend :nihungsmile:

wa r u on bout iv not sed any of thoses things....

[buddasingh]

Mpkaur,

I agree with much of what you say. So this is not directed at you.

I remind you that my initial post stated that “Sikhs should be sharing and wishing joy to those who sincerely celebrate joy as part of their own upbringing and in their sincerity recognize that Christmas is no more universal than any other cultural celebration.”

That should provide context to my comments.

Christmas is not just about celebrating the birth of jesus as you've stated. I'm sure you'll agree that for many it has become a secular holiday stemming from tradition. For many others it has become an adopted holiday. I say largely out of ignorance.

The ugly past of Christmas is in the entitled attitude of a religious pro-Christmas people that the world over should be converting to their religion or will be going to hell. Or that the non-Christian world over should be conquered and dominated as per their interpretation of their faith.

The ugly present of Christmas is not as much in asking for conversion to faith, or even speaking of organized religion. It is in the entitled attitude in a secular pro-Christmas assumption that those from non-christian or christmas backgrounds should adopt the customs of Christmas. Give the ugly past, this is extremely offensive.

Somehow of all faith related holidays this is a universal holiday! That absurd entitlement stems from a religious and racist arrogance reminiscent of an ugly past.

You say you are a former Christian. Perhaps there is some fond attachment to Christmas for you. If so, Merry Christmas to your family that may celebrate, and even yourself if it fits. However, why should there be an iota of expectation for me as a Sikh to celebrate Christmas any more than I might celebrate Eid, Hannukah or a Wiccan holiday?

All this collective Christmas spirit and so called peace on earth in Europe and North America for one week, while we permit fundamental rights of religious minorities to be trampled upon for the other 51? What a sham! Who needs to threaten conversion with a sword today, when sheep like submission to cultural dominance through media does the job. And those who have submitted, like slaves, contemplate whether we should celebrate the masters holiday?

Despite the above, I still maintain and remind you as in my original post… “Sikhs should be sharing and wishing joy to those who sincerely celebrate joy as part of their own upbringing and in their sincerity recognize that Christmas is no more universal than any other cultural celebration.”

"It would also help to know what you understand of Christians justifying slavery, racism, and oppression as having a basis in the bible and teachings of Christ."

Yes i agree with you, some people use the Bible to justify their own mean

"I do not suggest that those are the teachings of Christ, but without a doubt, Christians purported racist oppression to be amongst the teachings of Christ and used the bible as a foundation for that oppression. Factual enough?"

I would not call people who use the Bible for their own means Christians, the same way i wouldn't call people killing their unborn female infant Sikhs.

"Today, many people don’t understand why everybody shouldn’t celebrate Christmas as a cozy universal holiday despite its ugly past. Does that make them evil? No. However, it does make the effect of their thinking racist, whether they understand it or not. "

What is that ugly past of Christmas? Why are people celebrating Christmas racists? Christmas is about celebrating the birth of Jesus nothing more, nothing less.

"You speak of “my religion”. I don’t know if it will help you to understand more about where I am coming from, but I think huge segments of sikhs (who nonetheless may be better sikhs than I) are amongst the most racist people in western societies in propping up their Jattism based on racist emotional programming akin to “universal Christmas”. "

Racism and inequality are rooted in ego, it has nothing to do with being Christians or Jatts.

"(I may have just provided impetus for massive support for you here, enjoy)."

This is not a matter of supporting you versus me kind of thing. I'm not against you but I disagree with some of your comments.

[Ranjeet]

Christmas is actually a European Pagan Festival and actually has nothing to do with birth of Jesus Christ as he was not even born in December (if he actually existed at all). It was deliberatley celebrated in December by early Christians so they could not be distinguished with the Pagans.

Some Christian communities do not even celebrate Xmas in December, in Russia and Spain it is celebrated in Early January.

Most goreh in the UK celebrtate Christmas, not because they happen to be Christians (most of them do not consider themselves as such), but is an excuse to eat drink and be merry and to receive lots of presents.

[no_0ne]

From wikipedia:

Christmas is an annual holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus. The date of the celebration is traditional, and is not considered to be his actual date of birth. Christmas festivities often combine the commemoration of Jesus' birth with various secular customs, many of which have been influenced by earlier winter festivals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone has truly forgotten the real meaning of christmas, now it is just seen as something "fun". Orignally christmas was the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, now it seems like its become the celebration of Maya. Jesus went through so much pain in his life just to give a simple message to his followers which is to worship God. If people think christmas is about family gathering and giving to others then christmas should be everyday.

[MPKaur]

Mpkaur,...

“Sikhs should be sharing and wishing joy to those who sincerely celebrate joy as part of their own upbringing and in their sincerity recognize that Christmas is no more universal than any other cultural celebration.”

Fateh Veerji! now that you have explained what you meant by "ugly past", yes i concur. I fact, the conversion aspect is what bothered me about Christianity. I went in a couple of missions in my youth and at the last one, I couldn't take it anymore, although I loved the humanitarian aspects of missions. In any case, it's the reason why i fell in love with sikhi: universal brotherwood. "there is no hindu, no muslim"... very deep and still hard to apply in my every day life/

By the way we don't celebrate Christmas per say, but my family spoils the children with gifts.

[buddasingh]

Mpkaur,...

“Sikhs should be sharing and wishing joy to those who sincerely celebrate joy as part of their own upbringing and in their sincerity recognize that Christmas is no more universal than any other cultural celebration.”

Fateh Veerji! now that you have explained what you meant by "ugly past", yes i concur. I fact, the conversion aspect is what bothered me about Christianity. I went in a couple of missions in my youth and at the last one, I couldn't take it anymore, although I loved the humanitarian aspects of missions. In any case, it's the reason why i fell in love with sikhi: universal brotherwood. "there is no hindu, no muslim"... very deep and still hard to apply in my every day life/

By the way we don't celebrate Christmas per say, but my family spoils the children with gifts.

It's never black and white and I'm sure you could have said more... thanks for being the bigger person.

I can't stand that geeky shiny smile, but the banner fits.

[mophlrkb]

What a pointless debate...16 pages about Xmas?!?!?!?!

Don't we have anything better to do?!?!?!!

I certainly do..like drinking my morning coffee...

Ahh..but wait....I'm sure someone will start another 16 pages debate abuot coffee...tea..etc etc...

Anybody bothered commenting or being inspired by Bibi Kamaljeet Kaur Ji, writing Maharaaj's Lariwaar Swaroop with her hands??

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=20480

Obviously not...

There you go, it's the perfect seva for us all to do!!!

[KumJee]

Christmas is for losers!!!!

Thats why im celebrating the birth of jebus!!!!!!!!!