GORAE doing guru sahibs beadbi (UK)

[Harpartap Singh]

VahegurujikaKhalsa, VahegurujikiFateh!

'JSN', your arguments sound like those of a lawyer. Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, it means that we do NOT have to show any particular external form of respect to Gurbani or Guru ji in physical or non physical form.

I am sorry, but this is a complete joke.

Would the Sikhs of the Guru era not have bowed their heads to the physical human form of the Guru when he was not uttering divine Gurbani? The answer to this is unequivocally no - they did respect the physical form of the Guru. Guru ji could not be more explicit - in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, Guru Arjan Dev ji has said that the 'Pothi' (Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) is Parmesar.

As for downloading Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji - there should be a notice stating that a complete print out of the documents is considered the embodiment of the Guru and the Sikh code of Conduct must be adhered to otherwise this is a grave insult. However, if it is kept in 2 or more parts, this is not the case

As for Gurbani in non physical form i.e. the sung voice, on a computer screen, in the times of the Guru, teh Sikhs would sing Gurbani at all times throughout their working days. People who were non Sikh would have been present and Guru ji did not consider this an issue.

However, the form of Gurbani in the form of a scripture was treated as the Guru ji himself from the time of Guru Nanak Dev ji onwards. If, we take your argument again, if the complete Guru Granth Sahib ji is not present then no external form of respect should be shown - it would follow then that the Adi Granth Sahib which Guru Arjan Dev ji himself carried on his head to Harima

ndir Sahib could be left on a bookshelf and no wrong is done by this. Is this what Guru Arjan Dev ji intended? This is the exact argument that the British Library have used in their statement.

Sikhi always has two aspects, miri and piri, bana and bani, internal and external - in light of this, it is clear that external cleanliness and actions are inseparable for the Rehat of a Sikh. It is impossible to try to follow only the inward path of trying to cleanse the mind and practice Simran 24/7 and disregard all external actions.

Inner cleanliness, love and respect for Guru ji and Vaheguru are supreme but they must go hand in hand with our external actions.

Just my thoughts...

[KharkooSingh]

RE-CAP of issue first raised in August 2004.

I have come accross this old topic after seeing the Anglo Sikh Heritage Week programme 16th - 24th September 2006 where on the 18 Sep 06 there is a presentation @ the British Library. The British Library has been described by the ASHT as : "Home of the greatest collection of Sikh and Punjabi Manuscripts outside India".

http://www.asht.info/assets/downloads/Final_Version.pdf

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry193804

I am disturbed to know that "the British Library has 53 GurMukhi Scriptures and 17 Guru Granth Sahib Ji Saroops in their storage vaults." as per another old thread

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=6576&hl=

To re-cap in August 2004 the British Library had a Sikh display where the pavitar Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was displayed in a glass cabinet like an artifect. After some objection by a few Sikh youth, Maharaj's Saroop was taken from the display in the Library. What ended up happening is that the Sikh community made a discovery that the British Library "possesed" 53 GurMukhi Scriptures and 17 Guru Granth Sahib Ji Saroops in their storage vaults.

R4G started a Campaign in the hope of getting the BL to either let the Sikhs take the Saroops to Guru Ghars or to implement the appropriate Maryarda in the Library to look after Maharaj's Saroops. Some British MPs even supported the Sikh community on this.

However, 2 years on the issue seems to have been forgotten!!!!

Below - Pictures of the Pavitar Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj on display in the British Library in 2004.

[Manchester_Sikhi]

Jus to ad my 50 cents, what about english translations of Maharaji?

And in terms of libraries, should there be copies kept there?

If not, how do those who want to know more about Sikhism get access to these?

What about websites with Sikhi related media and Gurbani/Gurmukh?

We have to look to the future and also address these issues.

[KharkooSingh]

Also some of the Saroops kept in the British Library vaults are Puratan and were probably taken as booty by the British Rulers during the 19th Centuary. The Saroop that was displayed in the glass cabinet is supposed to be from the 17th Centuary.

Also, here's the petition that was started on 2004 with 1154 signatures.

http://www.petitiononline.com/beadbi04/petition.html

[Guest Papi]

So are you saying that partial displays of Gurbani are OK and do not constitute Be-adbi?

If so, then this totally goes against the argument being deployed to get the display of the Dasam Granth being removed where it is being argued that regardless of the the status of the Dasam Granth as a whole it contains Banis such as Jaap Sahib, Swayye and Chaupi and so should be removed from display. If this is the case then why is it OK for someone to post pangti's from Jap Ji where anyone can read them regardless whether they are wearing shoes, have head covered etc., but its not OK for Dasam Granth to be displayed at British Library?

I'm just trying to understand why we have double standards for when Gurbani is in different forms.

On the same point. Copies of the Guru Granth Sahib can be downloaded in pdf format from the Internet. This can be done by anyone, Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Atheist. Should we not also control this so that these copies are not subject to Be-adbi? After all, does a copy of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib cease to be a Guru just because it is in soft format rather than a bound hard copy?

What are we going to do about these copies of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib that are lying on people's hard drives? What is the correct Rehat when reading these? Should we put a Rumallah over the screen when we double click on the file? How do we enforce this?

waheguru ji, i think we only bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib in the forum gurus gave us......i.e. we dont just bow down to the knowledge but also the form.....they both play a part. yes we respect all the guktae and "pieces" of shabad guru but the whole shabad guru is the knowledge + saroop. bhul chuk maaf. guru rakha.

[KharkooSingh]

So are you saying that partial displays of Gurbani are OK and do not constitute Be-adbi?

If so, then this totally goes against the argument being deployed to get the display of the Dasam Granth being removed where it is being argued that regardless of the the status of the Dasam Granth as a whole it contains Banis such as Jaap Sahib, Swayye and Chaupi and so should be removed from display. If this is the case then why is it OK for someone to post pangti's from Jap Ji where anyone can read them regardless whether they are wearing shoes, have head covered etc., but its not OK for Dasam Granth to be displayed at British Library?

I'm just trying to understand why we have double standards for when Gurbani is in different forms.

On the same point. Copies of the Guru Granth Sahib can be downloaded in pdf format from the Internet. This can be done by anyone, Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Atheist. Should we not also control this so that these copies are not subject to Be-adbi? After all, does a copy of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib cease to be a Guru just because it is in soft format rather than a bound hard copy?

What are we going to do about these copies of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib that are lying on people's hard drives? What is the correct Rehat when reading these? Should we put a Rumallah over the screen when we double click on the file? How do we enforce this?

waheguru ji, i think we only bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib in the forum gurus gave us......i.e. we dont just bow down to the knowledge but also the form.....they both play a part. yes we respect all the guktae and "pieces" of shabad guru but the whole shabad guru is the knowledge + saroop. bhul chuk maaf. guru rakha.

When you try to tackle the beadbi of Guru Maharaj's Saroop, people attempt to open a "can of worms" by making statements such as what about this scenario or that scenario.

Like Papi has stated "we only bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib in the forum gurus gave us......i.e. we dont just bow down to the knowledge but also the form.....they both play a part" The pdf or internet format of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not the same as the Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj! Whenever we see the Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj we see the throne, the rumallay, the chaur sahib, the sachkhand etc. In short we see the King of Kings! How can we see that same atmosphere in the premises of the British Library!

[Lionchild]

As a bare minimum , all Gutka's and saroops should be covered in rumalla's and not left open. What does the Sangat think should be done???

how do people see the script? are we now not allowing the outside to viw our gurus word? is it only for us? The guru sahib is in a clean place, behind glass and not in some bar or hotel. Let our gurus presence be known to the world!

[KharkooSingh]

As a bare minimum , all Gutka's and saroops should be covered in rumalla's and not left open. What does the Sangat think should be done???

how do people see the script? are we now not allowing the outside to viw our gurus word? is it only for us? The guru sahib is in a clean place, behind glass and not in some bar or hotel. Let our gurus presence be known to the world!

Lionchild,

Go to the Gurdwara Sahib and bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as you normally would. Then go to a Library and see the same Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Saroop in a glass cabinet or a book shelf negelected like a book. Don't tell me the thought does not upset you!! Do you think our Guru's, our Saheeds, our Mahapurashs would be happy to know that Guru Ji is now only a mere book to the Sikhs and the world!!

Why do we then attempt to treat Guru Ji's Saroop differently in one environment compared to another?! Think about it, we as Sikhs must not even attempt to think that Guru Ji's Saroop is a book or a script for display. We refer to the Saroop of Guru Ji being made up of Angs not pages!

[palamrinder]

IT's so sad to see guruji kept in a glass cage. Guruji is eternal living guru and putting them in a glass cage is disgusting. Something should be done to stop this beadbi.... and as for saroop.... guru nanak devji wrote ikonkar on a piece of paper and took lavan around it for their anand karaj. BANI IN ANY FORM, ANYWHERE IS TO BE RESPECTED. If you have a piece of paper with ikonkar written on it, it is to be fully respected. I guess ppl nowdays are weighing more on personal considerations rather then showing UTMOST respect to shabad guru.

[Sarpanchni_007]

If we want to save old scriptures then we should look into Punjab where ppls are selling them on ebay's and most of em are just laying their without any proper preservation and so on..

and regarding the display.. Pls show us the picture which guru sahib jee is resting.. Then i can only comment... otherwise its hard to guess and take action..

ebay ??????? :wub: What ????

thats well bad :wub: stupid people