GORAE doing guru sahibs beadbi (UK)

[lsingh]

Will anybody put together an exhibition about Sikhs instead of the Guru's Saroops to let others know about Sikhism? No I doubt it. We have to let others know about Sikhs otherwise we will continue to have raciaattacks upon us in the present climate. The Guru Sahibs wanted to spread Sikhi knowledge, this neither happens in most Gurdwaras or outside them.

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

Puratan guru granth sahibs should be kept in a special museum that could be created just for them. where there are large beds with huge chananis and guru granth sahibs are there. Perhaps if someone wants to see, they can do parkash of saroops, or even have the saroops on manji sahibs like around in different rooms and perhaps a granthi singh that walks around and can do darshan of each for visitors etc..

that would be something..

i dont agree with burning.

i have heard that many sant deras are finding puratan saroops of guru sahib without raag mala and doing saskaar which is wrong. This has been going on for over 20 years I think. and this is exactly the kind of accusation that will go around if we do keep doing saskaar of puratan birs.

Am I the only one wondering why a Puratan 17th Centuray Saroop doesn't include Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib ji's Bani :T: :T: ?

I'd guess this saroops is Larrivaar?

These Saroops need to be preserved, as well as othe rPuratan Saroops in ONE PLACVE, only THEn can the issue about Raag Mala be solved, and proper Respect for Maharaj be kept

bhull chukik maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Rag Mala wasnt in the back of any Adi Granths or in the Kartapur Bir after Guru Gobind Singhs revision of the Adi Granth to the Guru Granth. The closing of Guru Granth Sahib is Mundavani Mahala Panjavaan and then a salok. Rag mala has no place being slowly evolved and snuck into Sri Guru Granth Sahib to confuse the panth. The raagnis etc do not corespond to the Raags and raagnis in Guru Granth. I personally beleive that Rag Mala is in no way Gurbani. [[There are 31 pure raags and 6 mixed raags in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Out of 37 raags, 12 raags do not find any mention in Raag Mala. There are as many as 59 raags and raaginies in Raag Mala which are not included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.]]

A Muhammadan poet called Alam in AH 991 (AD. 1583) wrote a work in 353 stanzas, generally from four to six lines each, called Madhava Nal Kandala. The Raga Mala, which forms the conclusion of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and contains a list of the raags and raaginis and their subdivisions, is a portion of Alam's work extending from 63rd to 72nd stanza. It is not understood how it was included in the Sacred volume. The Raags mentioned in it do not correspond with the Raags of the Granth Sahib.

Definition of raag mala : Raag Mala: The 63rd to 72nd meters from the Hindi version of Madhavanal Sangeet composed by Alam poet and includes six raags, with five raginis and eight sons of each.

Need I say more?

As a bare minimum , all Gutka's and saroops should be covered in rumalla's and not left open. What does the Sangat think should be done???

how do people see the script? are we now not allowing the outside to viw our gurus word? is it only for us? The guru sahib is in a clean place, behind glass and not in some bar or hotel. Let our gurus presence be known to the world!

Gurus word is specifically for Sikhs. The world has every right and chance to be a Sikh and its their own choice to follow the discipline of Guru Granth. We dont go randomly mailing free copies of Guru Granth just to please you and your wannabe preaching expeditions and views {sorry to be soo harsh but its true}

No lionchild you are very wrong. We dont show the world Gurbani like this. We dont cater to them, because thats not the point of Sikhi. If someone is humble they will go to Gurbani and humble themselves before it. We dont go and print a huge banner and fly it over a baseball game with a plane dragging it through the sky!!!!!!!!!! We dont go and put living people in glass cases do we???????? A hospital room is clean, but is the need for Gurus roop being in the room acceptable?????

Just because its not in a hotel etc doesnt mean in a glass case is acceptable, you cant even have GuruJi in a car incorrectly. Does everyone in Gurus presence have their head covered, shoes removed,clean hands and mind??????????? If it is asking too much of random people then why should GuruJi be in a museum when the people wont follow simple protocol, If they went to a Gurdwara they are required to follow the rules and thats why people dont go to the Gurdwara because they dont want to follow the rules. If they dont follow the rules then how can they beg for blessings, if they dont beg for blessings then why do they want to see Gurbani in any form {Dasm Granth, Guru Granth, Sar bloh Granth, Gutkey Sahib}

If it was up to lionchild he would go around at a sports game walking around flashing Gurbani to the audience like if they have to see any form of Gurbani while drinking beer and smoking{or cigarettes in pocket} while lionchild doesnt have a chandoa, umbrella, chaar, rumalla, manji, clean place etc.

Instead of show the world Gurbani , the world should meditate and understand they should flock to Gurbani, not the other way around. If we Sikhs need to show anything it is an example of holy and righteous living.

I went to Gurdwara Lodi the other day to completely clean out the Gutkey cabinet and wrapped most of the gutkas with little rumallas until they were spent, and with some wrapped two or 3 together. When I ran out of covering each one I covered each group with a rumalla. Dont get me wrong they were in a respected state but after I organized them everything on that side of the room looked very respected. At first the Granthis were trippin over what I was doing but towards the end were thankful that I re-organized the whole thing {black and white difference}. Its weird looking at a group of gutkies {gurbani in general} and seeing all the beauty within just be merely looking in that direction. After they let me borrow some Printedscripts and gutkas etc because Im getting really good at reading Gurmukhi [ I can pretty much read Gurmukhi script, I just need to know the meanings of words {vocabulary}] It will be a blessing the first time I can take Hukam of Sri Guru Granth Sahib because after that I will install Sri Guru Granth Sahibs bir in my home.

BOTTOM LINE: Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Dasm Granth, Sar Bloh Granth, and Gutkies have no place in a non-Sikh ran museum. ONly Sikhs should care for any Gurbani. We dont allow a guy in mongolia to be president of the U.S we should we allow non-Sikhs to care for Gurbani because they dont even know the protocol might as well follow it!!!!!!!!! [[[[[[[[[When the museum installs the birs do they carry Gurbani on their head on a rumalla covered with a rumalla, with bare feet and is a chandoa erected above and with a chaar Sahib present at all times??????? If not then the Birs must be removed without question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]]]]]]]]]

[Harpartap Singh]

VahegurujikaKhalsa, VahegurujikFateh!

Veero,

I have spoken to the R4G sevadars and they have said that the British Library (BL) were very reluctant to communicate with them on this issue. What they did discover was that BL went to their own 'representatives of the Sikh community' - Anglo Sikh Heritage for advice.

The only confirmation that BL did make was as to the number of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's in their control (17) and Gutkas's. They said they have put in place environmental and security procedures in place to protect Guru ji but pointedly did not even mention any procedures for ensuring proper respect.

Harbinder Rana of Anglo Sikh Heritage (ASH) has said they were asked for advice on this issue but stated that they had informed the BL in writing that they should take advice from Sri Akal Takhat Sahib. ASH have not followed this up hence the coin exhibition next week.

We all need to think about how we can realistically resolve this issue.

[KharkooSingh]

VahegurujikaKhalsa, VahegurujikFateh!

Veero,

I have spoken to the R4G sevadars and they have said that the British Library (BL) were very reluctant to communicate with them on this issue. What they did discover was that BL went to their own 'representatives of the Sikh community' - Anglo Sikh Heritage for advice.

The only confirmation that BL did make was as to the number of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's in their control (17) and Gutkas's. They said they have put in place environmental and security procedures in place to protect Guru ji but pointedly did not even mention any procedures for ensuring proper respect.

Harbinder Rana of Anglo Sikh Heritage (ASH) has said they were asked for advice on this issue but stated that they had informed the BL in writing that they should take advice from Sri Akal Takhat Sahib. ASH have not followed this up hence the coin exhibition next week.

We all need to think about how we can realistically resolve this issue.

Thanks for the update.

Regardless of the attempts tp preserve history by the British Library with their climate control facilities etc, the BL has Saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in their possesion. There is a set protocol that the Sikh kaum adhere to when it comes to the satkar of Maharaj's Saroop, this protocol will not take place in the British Library. A member of staff @ BL will see the Saroop of Maharaj as a normal book, they won't be covering their head, washing their hands, kesh ishnaan etc

Why are we so uncomfortable about Maharaj's Saroop being taken to Hotels, Banqueting Halls, Off-Licences and Hindu Temples? Is it not because we know that the satkar of Maharaj's Saroop would not be kept in those environments?

BL have Saroops of Maharaj in their possesion which they see as mere artifects. To a Sikh those same Saroops are the Jagdi Jyot! It is OUR (the SIKH KUAM) own fault that we have failed explain to a British Institution what the Guru means to a Sikh.

[KharkooSingh]

Will anybody put together an exhibition about Sikhs instead of the Guru's Saroops to let others know about Sikhism? No I doubt it. We have to let others know about Sikhs otherwise we will continue to have raciaattacks upon us in the present climate. The Guru Sahibs wanted to spread Sikhi knowledge, this neither happens in most Gurdwaras or outside them.

I fail to see how a racist who is willing to attack a Sikh would want to attend an exhibition at the British Library. Exhibitions on Sikhism can be done without exhibiting the Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji too.

Anyway the controversy is not about exhibitions in general, it is about the 17 Saroops that the British Library have on their premises. Realistically, is some gora going to visit the library to specifically "read" the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I mean the text is in Gurmukhi. Do you visit the Library to "read" the Guru Granth Sahib Ji? There are english translations of Maharaj's Bani, which I think is OK to keep in Libraries, but not the full Saroop which we would otherwise do matha tekh in the Gurdwara environment.

[kuljeet]

VAHEGUROOOOOO

FIRSTLY WE MUST THANK THE BRITISH LIBRARY FOR PRESERVING THE SAROOPS.

BUT,

THE FACT REMAINS WE CANNOT ALLOW GURU MAHARAJ TO BE KEPT IN A GLASS CABINET OR ANY OTHER CUBOARD. SANGAT JI IMAGINE SOMEONE PUTTING YOUR DAD IN A CABINET. AND THEN NOT TO EVEN DO PROPER SEWA. THIS IS A PAAP.

I WAS NOT AWARE OF THIS BEFORE AND FEEL BAD THAT WE HAVE ALLOWED THIS TO GO ON.

[KharkooSingh]

VAHEGUROOOOOO

FIRSTLY WE MUST THANK THE BRITISH LIBRARY FOR PRESERVING THE SAROOPS.

BUT,

THE FACT REMAINS WE CANNOT ALLOW GURU MAHARAJ TO BE KEPT IN A GLASS CABINET OR ANY OTHER CUBOARD. SANGAT JI IMAGINE SOMEONE PUTTING YOUR DAD IN A CABINET. AND THEN NOT TO EVEN DO PROPER SEWA. THIS IS A PAAP.

I WAS NOT AWARE OF THIS BEFORE AND FEEL BAD THAT WE HAVE ALLOWED THIS TO GO ON.

The British Library did not preserve the Saroops, Sri Akal Purakh did!

The British Colonisits probaby stole or were gifted the Saroops as treasures. Let's not think the Saroop were kept by them out of compassion for the Sikh religion. The British Library would probably treat any old manusript in the same way!

[karamthedon]

VAHEGUROOOOOO

FIRSTLY WE MUST THANK THE BRITISH LIBRARY FOR PRESERVING THE SAROOPS.

BUT,

THE FACT REMAINS WE CANNOT ALLOW GURU MAHARAJ TO BE KEPT IN A GLASS CABINET OR ANY OTHER CUBOARD. SANGAT JI IMAGINE SOMEONE PUTTING YOUR DAD IN A CABINET. AND THEN NOT TO EVEN DO PROPER SEWA. THIS IS A PAAP.

I WAS NOT AWARE OF THIS BEFORE AND FEEL BAD THAT WE HAVE ALLOWED THIS TO GO ON.

The British Library did not preserve the Saroops, Sri Akal Purakh did!

The British Colonisits probaby stole or were gifted the Saroops as treasures. Let's not think the Saroop were kept by them out of compassion for the Sikh religion. The British Library would probably treat any old manusript in the same way!

you are right baaji. i studied history agree. it is upto god not people to preserve.

[kuljeet]

SORRY I MAKE YOU RIGHT KHARKOO. LETS HAVE MORE FAITH. VAHEGURU PRESERVED NOT BL.

[One Man Army]

Puratan guru granth sahibs should be kept in a special museum that could be created just for them. where there are large beds with huge chananis and guru granth sahibs are there. Perhaps if someone wants to see, they can do parkash of saroops, or even have the saroops on manji sahibs like around in different rooms and perhaps a granthi singh that walks around and can do darshan of each for visitors etc..

that would be something..

i dont agree with burning.

i have heard that many sant deras are finding puratan saroops of guru sahib without raag mala and doing saskaar which is wrong. This has been going on for over 20 years I think. and this is exactly the kind of accusation that will go around if we do keep doing saskaar of puratan birs.

Am I the only one wondering why a Puratan 17th Centuray Saroop doesn't include Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib ji's Bani :T: :T: ?

I'd guess this saroops is Larrivaar?

These Saroops need to be preserved, as well as othe rPuratan Saroops in ONE PLACVE, only THEn can the issue about Raag Mala be solved, and proper Respect for Maharaj be kept

bhull chukik maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Rag Mala wasnt in the back of any Adi Granths or in the Kartapur Bir after Guru Gobind Singhs revision of the Adi Granth to the Guru Granth. The closing of Guru Granth Sahib is Mundavani Mahala Panjavaan and then a salok. Rag mala has no place being slowly evolved and snuck into Sri Guru Granth Sahib to confuse the panth. The raagnis etc do not corespond to the Raags and raagnis in Guru Granth. I personally beleive that Rag Mala is in no way Gurbani. [[There are 31 pure raags and 6 mixed raags in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Out of 37 raags, 12 raags do not find any mention in Raag Mala. There are as many as 59 raags and raaginies in Raag Mala which are not included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.]]

dont know where u get yourinformation from but the actual hand written saroop of Baba Deep Singh ji has ragmala in it, i have seen it with my own eyes!at Damdama sahib. the saroop is authenticised, and has been checkd against all the other saroops written by Baba Deep Singh ji, as well as the panj granthi written by him. do you really think that any one has the power to come and stick an extra arm or leg (extra ang) on Guru Sahib? mahraaj has alot more power then that. that some outsider can come and modify him!wheres the prosa in Mahraaj?