Going to Sants

[VanHelsingh]

So is this Dunda fella against ALL sants, regardless of merit and achievement? So he's anti the Nanaksar sants and the Taksal sants? Or is he using the 'Sant' hook to reel people in before hitting them with the good stuff (or the bad stuff depending on your perspective)? :biggrin2:

[N30S1NGH]

This is good topic, but the issue is not that clear cut.

I wouldn't say real sants are dividing the sangat but rather their chelas who are causing a problem and dividing the sangat. Over zealous chelas are big problem not just limited to sikhi but everywhere. I would go as far as saying out of 100%, 25-30% sant followers understood purpose or role of sant in one's life which is attach you with sargun (partakh roop of sri guru granth sahib ji), shabad, nirgun aspect of vahiguroo ji, get motivated/inspired to do bhagti and actually do bhagti, contemplate on gurbani and they actually understand the real purpose of sant is to ultimately actually show you the mirror of your own true self, those 25-30% a take real laha of sadh sangat/mahapursh sangat and rest 70-75% sant followers have lost the plot somewhat- some are genuinely stuck in bhamal busa (overboard overblown exaggerated personality worship/semantics/technalities) and some have became outright hostile over zealous chelas like jevoh witness. Read this for more info http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/69848-individual-cultish-perception-and-the-khalsa-panth/

I know its very hard to define role of sant theoratically speaking but each one of sant/bhai/jathedar/gyani "followers" (including me) need to come in terms within themselves honestly and find out- According to gurbani and gurmat, whats the purpose of doing sangat of sant/mahapursh/bhramgyani ? what does gurbani say about it?

Are we going to do sangat of sant to clear the doubts/sansa's of one self, to improve one state of mind/peace of mind, do satkar or sadh sangat seva to help kill our ego? or we just want to fit in to show off get power, hide our own insecurity/inferiority complex behind them and use them as token gestures? or we want to quick kick of an bliss in their sangat perhaps looking for easy way out-bhramgyan on silver plate?? Just like in class, there are various many students who is learning, some are a+ grade some are time wasters, some are quick learners, for some it takes time to learn, some misinterpret their teachers, just like in spiritual school- we also have different students at different different state, some are a+ grade some are time wasters, some are quick learners, for some it takes time to learn, some misinterpret their teachers (famous sakhi of mahatam buddha student asking him where is god? mahatama ji smiled some grade 1 chelas took his smile and interpreted as - there is no god), just like there are many different types of students in gurmat as well. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70060-three-types-of-students-according-to-gurmat/

and let me mention one thing..........we paapi are not capable of meeting with guru maharaj..........only sant or gurmukh babe can hold ur hand ...and move you forward on this path.............without sant ang gurmukh babe u'll lost somewhere in between....dats for sure

There is no hard or fast rule in this. There are some blessed souls who don't need middle men all the way to go fwd on sikhi path but at the same time there are many depending on the karam of an individual as its all relative- many needs small guidance within gurbani, there are many who just needs a small spike/reality check (even great bhai vir singh ji had to sangat of mahapursh to clear one of his doubts), there are many who need to get their doubts/sansa's cleared and there are many people who need sangat of mahapursh to clear all kinds of theological/ontological/subtle road blocks in one's life to go fwd towards sikhi, there are many who need reality check slaps right left and center to come back to basic of sikh or path of sikhi. Thats why gurbani emphasizes greatly on sadh/sant/bhramgyani mahapursh sangat. Sadh sangat is encouraged in Gurmat, society of saints/sant (all of sants mentioned or samparda's/jatha does so) that should inspire us to do bhagti, read gurbani, contemplate on it , do simran on our own, self-reflect, do khoj/research if it does not may be something wrong with our individual perception/mindset at the first place.

The problem is there are many followers of sant/bhai sahib/jathehdar do have common human tendacy to focus on messenger as opposed to message (don't get me wrong due satkar should be given but also need to have right balance not this sheer overboard overblown exaggerated personality worship/ idiolizing mahapursh semantics and technalities rather than looking at the essence behind of things. Message is more important than messenger as messenger themselves put shabad, sargun, nirgun divinity as paramount....perception of individual focus on messenger as opposed to message needs to be addressed... please see sant jawala singh ji harkhowal updesh to janak singh regarding contemplation of shabad, helping janak singh moving fwd in his own spiritual journey http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/63528-sant-baba-jawala-singh-harkowahals-updesh-about-dyhaan-to-janak-singh-ji/

Now coming back to what dhunda has done is simple knee je rk reaction approach of khandan mandan everything and anything as opposed to looking at the issue more deeply. Whilst, his intent regarding bring everyone together may be right but with that being said he is cleary out of depth as there is nothing wrong with sant sangat but everything wrong with many over zealous chelas perception...he should be targetting over zealous cultish perception of people rather than actual sants..!!

[Sherdil]

If someone is in need of guidance, such as translation of a tuk from gurbani, why don't they seek out the help of the granthi at their gurdwara? Isn't it the granthi's job to guide the sangat? Aren't there also gurbani veechar classes you can sign up for?

Forgive me if I am missing something.

[VanHelsingh]

If someone is in need of guidance, such as translation of a tuk from gurbani, why don't they seek out the help of the granthi at their gurdwara? Isn't it the granthi's job to guide the sangat? Aren't there also gurbani veechar classes you can sign up for?

Forgive me if I am missing something.

For some people I think it's not just about something as straight-forward as seeking translations or clarifications of tuks. I think N30Singh Ji explains it rather well.

Uncynically, I think Guru Arjan Dev Ji encourages us to seek the company of saints at the end of Kirtain Sohila as well as a complete Asthpadi venerating the qualities of a saint in Sukhmani Sahib. It's the "Nanak daas eho sukh mange, mokho kar santan ki dhure" if I remember the final lines of Kirtain Sohila correctly. It's about being in the presence of these elevated individuals in the hope they can guide you towards goodness, and some of their inate gyan and knowledge can rub-off on the individual. That's the theory at least.

In reality some people begin to view Sants as some kind of miracle-doers or fortune-tellers who can provide them with the necessary tools to get on in the world, i.e. "Baba Ji, give me a son" or "Baba Ji, mere kam-baar de vich taruki hove" etc. That's when things go awry in my opinion. Of course, the hardcore Brahmgianis don't entertain such low-level, maya-infused demands from anyone. They get you on the path to Waheguru, and to hell with your personal desires.

[Singh559]

For some people I think it's not just about something as straight-forward as seeking translations or clarifications of tuks. I think N30Singh Ji explains it rather well.

Uncynically, I think Guru Arjan Dev Ji encourages us to seek the company of saints at the end of Kirtain Sohila as well as a complete Asthpadi venerating the qualities of a saint in Sukhmani Sahib. It's the "Nanak daas eho sukh mange, mokho kar santan ki dhure" if I remember the final lines of Kirtain Sohila correctly. It's about being in the presence of these elevated individuals in the hope they can guide you towards goodness, and some of their inate gyan and knowledge can rub-off on the individual. That's the theory at least.

In reality some people begin to view Sants as some kind of miracle-doers or fortune-tellers who can provide them with the necessary tools to get on in the world, i.e. "Baba Ji, give me a son" or "Baba Ji, mere kam-baar de vich taruki hove" etc. That's when things go awry in my opinion. Of course, the hardcore Brahmgianis don't entertain such low-level, maya-infused demands from anyone. They get you on the path to Waheguru, and to hell with your personal desires.

Baba Ji, give me a son

:giggle:

[Sherdil]

For some people I think it's not just about something as straight-forward as seeking translations or clarifications of tuks. I think N30Singh Ji explains it rather well.

Uncynically, I think Guru Arjan Dev Ji encourages us to seek the company of saints at the end of Kirtain Sohila as well as a complete Asthpadi venerating the qualities of a saint in Sukhmani Sahib. It's the "Nanak daas eho sukh mange, mokho kar santan ki dhure" if I remember the final lines of Kirtain Sohila correctly. It's about being in the presence of these elevated individuals in the hope they can guide you towards goodness, and some of their inate gyan and knowledge can rub-off on the individual. That's the theory at least.

In reality some people begin to use and views Sants as some kind of miracle-doers or fortune-tellers who can provide them with the necessary tools to get on in the world, i.e. "Baba Ji, give me a son" or "Baba Ji, mere kam-baar de vich taruki hove" etc. That's when things go awry in my opinion. Of course, the hardcore Brahmgianis don't entertain such low-level, maya-infused demands from anyone. They get you on the path to Waheguru, and to hell with your personal desires.

I don't know any mahapurakhs personally, so I just ask my granthi whenever I'm in doubt...but I don't think he likes to hang out or anything. Lol. I understand what you are saying though.

How does one keep the company of saints then? Is it possible to be a saint and not have Sant or Baba in your name? How do you know a mahapurakh when you see one then, and how does one surround oneself with saintly people?

The older I get, the more I feel the world is full of unsavory characters. Saints are hard to come by.

[VanHelsingh]

Baba Ji, give me a son

:giggle:

"That'll be 5 lakh up-front, and 1 lakh each year for the rest of your life for.... erm... an Akhand Paat... yes... an Akhand Paat or the child will not remain in good health".

True story.

I don't know any mahapurakhs personally, so I just ask my granthi whenever I'm in doubt...but I don't think he likes to hang out or anything. Lol. I understand what you are saying though.

How does one keep the company of saints then? Is it possible to be a saint and not have Sant or Baba in your name? How do you know a mahapurakh when you see one then, and how does one surround oneself with saintly people?

The older I get, the more I feel the world is full of unsavory characters. Saints are hard to come by.

Same here. Personally - therefore don't take this as the truth - I think the Gursikh gentleman at the end of the road, raising his children in the Sikh way, working a 9 to 5 job to provide for his family, teaching his children about Sikhi and Sikhi history, ensuring Gurbani is the focus of everything in his life, as he lives with honour and respect whilst the world around him severely lacks these qualities, is the person with saintly qualities and is the kind of individual we should view as a sant in this modern-day world.

Seeking out a dera packed full of luxury cars in the hope of meeting a Baba who only emerges to meet you when his followers tell him what kind of car you've arrived in (and by extension an indication of your status and how much you can fill his coffers) is not the kind of sant Guru Ji was referring to.

Like you I'm afraid I don't know anyone who can point me in the direction of a saint in the classical sense of the word. Guess that's my karams at work! :biggrin2: Those fortunate enough to know the decent and honourable sants and mahapurashs' are very lucky.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

People who run there dera will always be taken as mahaprush and a enlighten gursikh who lives next door wiil be just a simple man.

MAATHE TILAK HATH MAALA BAANA, LOGON RAM KHILONA JAANA.

Today deras have replaced tilak maala baana.

[Raaj.Karega.Khalsa]

"That'll be 5 lakh up-front, and 1 lakh each year for the rest of your life for.... erm... an Akhand Paat... yes... an Akhand Paat or the child will not remain in good health".

True story.

Please tell me that's not true!

[luckysingh99]

I don't know any mahapurakhs personally, so I just ask my granthi whenever I'm in doubt...but I don't think he likes to hang out or anything. Lol. I understand what you are saying though.

How does one keep the company of saints then? Is it possible to be a saint and not have Sant or Baba in your name? How do you know a mahapurakh when you see one then, and how does one surround oneself with saintly people?

The older I get, the more I feel the world is full of unsavory characters. Saints are hard to come by.

I agree with you totally !!!

I can't afford to go out find some sant and make my offerings.

Is there a sant dera baba who doesn't do world tours, refuses to take money, gifts, doesn't fly club class, doesn't get seen travelling in luxury cars ???

I have the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as the real guru and the sadh sangat is the company of the honest, hard working sikh man raising his family as mentioned above.

Ask a gyani, granthi or someone at the Gurdwara to explain what gurbani you don't understand or agree with.!!

Please tell me that's not true!

Check the many deras that insist that all your dasvand should go to them !!!