Hypothetical New Sikh Sect That Accepts Homosexuality

[MisterrSingh]

The world is turning upside down 20 yrs ago gays were considered abnormal and against nature let alone trans these ppl r going against gods laws and any sikh sect tht would support them would have to be ex communitcated

I've always wondered from a spiritual level: is this all hukam or Man exercising free will? And if there is no free will, then where's this coming from, especially since we Sikhs believes not even a leaf can stir in a breeze without the will of Akal Purakh?

[Kira]

The world is turning upside down 20 yrs ago gays were considered abnormal and against nature let alone trans these ppl r going against gods laws and any sikh sect tht would support them would have to be ex communitcated

This may come as a massive shock to you but homosexuality actually exists in nature, so arguing it's "un-natural" is a pretty weak argument. Good work on exhibiting "unconditional love" by the way. This also may come as a shock to you but Hijra (trans-sexual) culture was alive and around back in our Guru-ji's time. So if being a transexual is worse than being a homosexual then you may have just shot yourself in the foot.

I didn't really mean that guys have better karam if they are guys I was just saying, most guys in South Asia have life a bit easier than girls, which means that most guys are born with more Sukh than us girls in South Asia, but it can go vice versa. About Sri Amrit Sanchar, I have always been told the reasoning that a girl can't be part of it because no girl got up during the original Sri Amrit Sanchar, but I'm not sure. I've also heard that our last Sri Guru with the body, comes into the 5 pyare.. Yeah many women would for sure jump at the chance. In my eyes a mona aka someone with cut hair isn't considered a Sikh to me. A 'Shishya' is someone who listens to their Guru, and the word Sikh comes from the word 'Shishya', meaning student of the Guru(s). If a student can't willingly even listen to their Guru, do they deserve that title of being a Sikh?? Of course some people won't agree with me on this; but seriously what is so hard about not cutting hair? Manmats aren't really considered Sikhs.

That's a pretty nice post but I get it now. Thank you bhaji.

Just one final point on where I highlighted. Obviously in the time of our Guru Gobind Singh Ji he created the Khalsa and implemented the keeping of kesh. But you argue that a mona should be considered a Shishya right? but before Guru sahib ji, there was more likely quite a number of mona, followers of Guru Nanak,Guru Angad and so on. Would they be considered "no sikhs then" .

Again I just want to re-iterate im not attacking you in any shape and form, I just have quite a bit of questions regarding the rehet maryada and things such as Kesh. For some reason it was an aspect I didn't go into an awful lot. Which has obviously come and bit me back haha.

I've always wondered from a spiritual level: is this all hukam or Man exercising free will? And if there is no free will, then where's this coming from, especially since we Sikhs believes not even a leaf can stir in a breeze without the will of Akal Purakh?

Everything that happens is Waheguru's will. I feel free will is more of an illusion in the sense it's restricted to our choices and nothing more but even those are known to the creator. I could be wrong though but I never understood "free-will" in Sikhism entirely.

May Waheguru guide me to the truth.

[ghettosikh]

Lol being A tranny is a direct rebellion to waheguru ur tellin me god makes mistakes? Jus cos ppl on tv r sayin it's ok to be gay now doesn't mean we should all jump on the band wagon I don't care wat anyone says being a fruity n being a sikh cn never be compatible. Gay ppl lifestyle is all kaam they can't do anything that will benifits mankind . Now this filth is being promoted in schools up n down the country it's indoctrination to young minds

[MisterrSingh]

Everything that happens is Waheguru's will. I feel free will is more of an illusion in the sense it's restricted to our choices and nothing more but even those are known to the creator. I could be wrong though but I never understood "free-will" in Sikhism entirely.

So these social developments are Waheguru's will? And if, as you say, free will isn't entirely free, then the aforementioned events, etc, are known to Him? So why are we complaining, lol?

But seriously, I too have struggled to digest free will in Sikhi? Does anyone have access to katha which examines the subject?

[Kira]

So these social developments are Waheguru's will? And if, as you say, free will isn't entirely free, then the aforementioned events, etc, are known to Him? So why are we complaining, lol?

But seriously, I too have struggled to digest free will in Sikhi? Does anyone have access to katha which examines the subject?

Everything is waheguru's will. Nothing can exist outside of his will, that's something that was highlighted to us, I never understood how things like being gay or transgender or anything is something he didn't will for the person. Maybe it's a test, maybe it's a blessing, I have no idea.

Yeah I don't understand free will as well, it's really a paradox for me but then again I over-complicate things.

Lol being A tranny is a direct rebellion to waheguru ur tellin me god makes mistakes? Jus cos ppl on tv r sayin it's ok to be gay now doesn't mean we should all jump on the band wagon I don't care wat anyone says being a fruity n being a sikh cn never be compatible. Gay ppl lifestyle is all kaam they can't do anything that will benifits mankind . Now this filth is being promoted in schools up n down the country it's indoctrination to young minds

So basically you're arguing that it's against Sikhism. if it was then why wouldn't Guru-Sahib forbid it outright in Gurbani?

Gay lifestyle is all kaam? you sound like the sort of person that's never spoken to a gay person let alone ask them about their lifestyles. Let me help you shed some light on it. They have to deal with discrimination, hatred, glares, in some cases death threats. Some of them are killed because of the fact that they can't help but be who they are. Do you honestly think that they don't want be like everyone else? do you really think they want to suffer like that?

A tranny is a direct rebellion to waheguru's will? are you saying that we, humans, are capable of rebelling against waheguru? the omnipotent,omniscience and omnipresent lord who created the universe? By your logic you're implying that we're capable of defying his will? Our physical appearance or even our sexual orientation has little to zero development on how we expand spiritually. Our Souls are gender-less, it''s our deeds that define us, not who we're born as.

Gays fall for someone of their same gender the same way heterosexual people fall for someone of the opposite sex. By that logic all their lifestyles are kaam.

[MisterrSingh]

Everything that happens is Waheguru's will. I feel free will is more of an illusion in the sense it's restricted to our choices and nothing more but even those are known to the creator. I could be wrong though but I never understood "free-will" in Sikhism entirely.

After giving it some thought I think there are karams, but not free will. Free will sounds lovely as a concept, but it suggests God is helpless in some situations.

[S1ngh]

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[Guest Jacfsing2]

This may come as a massive shock to you but homosexuality actually exists in nature, so arguing it's "un-natural" is a pretty weak argument. Good work on exhibiting "unconditional love" by the way. This also may come as a shock to you but Hijra (trans-sexual) culture was alive and around back in our Guru-ji's time. So if being a transexual is worse than being a homosexual then you may have just shot yourself in the foot.

That's a pretty nice post but I get it now. Thank you bhaji.

Just one final point on where I highlighted. Obviously in the time of our Guru Gobind Singh Ji he created the Khalsa and implemented the keeping of kesh. But you argue that a mona should be considered a Shishya right? but before Guru sahib ji, there was more likely quite a number of mona, followers of Guru Nanak,Guru Angad and so on. Would they be considered "no sikhs then" .

Again I just want to re-iterate im not attacking you in any shape and form, I just have quite a bit of questions regarding the rehet maryada and things such as Kesh. For some reason it was an aspect I didn't go into an awful lot. Which has obviously come and bit me back haha.

Everything that happens is Waheguru's will. I feel free will is more of an illusion in the sense it's restricted to our choices and nothing more but even those are known to the creator. I could be wrong though but I never understood "free-will" in Sikhism entirely.

May Waheguru guide me to the truth.

Actually Kesh-keeping would still be important as Guru Sahib told Bhai Mardana 3 things if he wanted to follow him, one of them was to keep Kesh, and in Bhai Gurdas Di Vaar it mentions Anrit for the GurSikh.

[Kira]

Actually Kesh-keeping would still be important as Guru Sahib told Bhai Mardana 3 things if he wanted to follow him, one of them was to keep Kesh, and in Bhai Gurdas Di Vaar it mentions Anrit for the GurSikh.

Would you mind finding me the vaars and angs please :D

Of course it was fine being mona before our Khalsa was made (but not anymore since our Sri Guru has given a clear set of rules such as the 5Ks which help identify Sikhs etc), because that wasn't the final current Khalsa set by our Sri Gurus rules. If it had no rules before, I don't mind at all, but I believe in current Khalsa set out by our Sri Gurus with the permission of Sri Vaheguru. Haha it's fine, I never felt attacked (:

That's nice to hear, I sometimes get told my line of questioning seems like I'm attacking either Sikhi or the person haha. I'm just a curious soul by nature. Just another question, do you feel that taking Amrit is a requirement for us Sikhs if we wish to achieve salvation.

[Kira]

I think if you want mukhti from reincarnation in the Sikh way, yes Sri Amrit is needed. Even our Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji has taken Sri Amrit from the Panj Pyars, so it would be wise to follow if you do believe in this religion, right? You can try to find another way to recieve mukhti, but it would be somewhat hard. In a line it said these 'clever' ways will not result in recieving mukhti, so it just shows it's better to take Sri Amrit and do nitnem daily and put your full trust in our Sri Gurus.

Naturally I can agree to that.

But what I meant is say a muslim or even a christian. who follows his religion, does his form of simran (nimaz or singing hymn) and is an extremely good human being. Do you think they can achieve mukhti?