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TheeTurbanator

Need Help Countering Arguments Made by Naamdharis

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! 

Recently I have been getting asked by Naamdharis to show where the Guru ordered that there should be no more Gurus after Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I told them how the Guru clearly said: "Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai, Guru maneyo Granth", but they want authentic writings and proof, even though this is a basic accepted fact in the Khalsa Panth. 

The Naamdharis also ask to show where Gurbani says Sikhs cant have human Gurus after SGGSJ. 

Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji clearly says: 
 

Fourth Mehl:

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru the True Guru shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵੈ ॥

Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar.

ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਦੋਖ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥

Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased.

ਫਿਰਿ ਚੜੈ ਦਿਵਸੁ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਗਾਵੈ ਬਹਦਿਆ ਉਠਦਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name.

ਜੋ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਧਿਆਏ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥

One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.

ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ॥

That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed.

ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੂੜਿ ਮੰਗੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ||2||

The definition of a "Sikh" in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is very universal and can be applied by anyone regardless of which faith they were born into.  This definition is also "orthopraxic" as its defined by the active practice, rather than "belief". The SGGSJ doesn't litterally state that its the last Guru for Sikhs, and Namdharis are using this as a loophole. 

So my question to the Sangat is how do we counter these Naamdhari arguments? If you have any sources on the Guru ordering SGGSJ as the last Guru please send it. 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! 

Recently I have been getting asked by Naamdharis to show where the Guru ordered that there should be no more Gurus after Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I told them how the Guru clearly said: "Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai, Guru maneyo Granth", but they want authentic writings and proof, even though this is a basic accepted fact in the Khalsa Panth. 

 

What proof do they have? other than the sau sakhi which were corrupted by everyone from the British to the sikh nationalists. With one breath they claim to love Gurbani and in the same one they tell people that Guru Gobind Singh Ji lied to his sikhs and left them. Their proof is sightings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji after his departure, they don't want to accept that Guru Sahib is everywhere and always ready to help those who deserve it. The very texts they use also says that Guru Nanak Dev Ji would only take 9 more forms after his first. 9, not 14, but 9, the final form being in the roop of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Their evidence is nonexistence and based on fairy tales they devised.

Poet Sainapati wrote about the passing and the the transfer of Gurgaddi. He was actually there unlike us, If you want more references then please refer back to Rehitnamas of Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji and various other Gursikhs of Guru Sahib's time. I'd also like to add there's proof that Guru Ghaddi was given to Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Sarbloh Granth as it's referred to Guru there too.  You can trace this back right to Guru Sahib's final years on Earth, all the sources say the same thing, Guru Manyeo Granth. Their cult then simply went around adding stuff into anything written after the demise of Baba Ram Singh in an effort to distort everything. 

 

The Nihangs were the most isolated Sikh community after the departure of Guru Gobind Singh Ji yet they all maintained that Guru Granth Sahib Ji was given Guruship. 

There's all the proof you need, but most of them are so brainwashed they'll ignore it. Even their own timelines don't match up to everything they propagate. 

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Thank you for your response. Since we have gotten the historical aspects out of the way, lets talk about the philosophical aspects that define a "Sikh" which they use as a loophole. How would you counter their argument that the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji doesn't say that following Human Gurus after Guru Gobind Singh Ji is banned or that a Sikh cannot follow another human Guru? 

 

In terms of Gurbani, as I stated in my original post, Gurbani defines a "Sikh" in very universal terms, and doesn't outright condemn following a human Guru. 

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru the True Guru shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

You could make the argument that "Sikh of the Guru the True Guru"  is reffering to Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Waheguru, in which case, following a modern day human Guru would not be covered in this definition. 

The Sikh Rehat Maryada is already Khalsa oriented and defines a "Sikh" as anyone who "faithfully believes" in: 

 

* One God. 

* The Sikh Gurus from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji & Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

* The writings and teachings of all the Gurus.   

* The initiation into the Khalsa created by the 10th Guru. 

* Does not identify with any other faith.  

I have no problem with these self proclaimed "Naamdharis" as long as they dont claim to be Sikhs, but rather distance themselves from the associating with Sikhi and just follow their own stuff, however they are trying to make the argument that since it doesn't litterally condemn human Gurus, it should be allowed. 

 

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14 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Recently I have been getting asked by Naamdharis to show where the Guru ordered that there should be no more Gurus after Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I told them how the Guru clearly said: "Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai, Guru maneyo Granth", but they want authentic writings and proof, even though this is a basic accepted fact in the Khalsa Panth. 

Go to and read the evidence presented at this website:

http://www.namdharitruth.info/

You should know that  "Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai, Guru maneyo Granth" is not contained within Gurbani, it is neither in Guru Granth Sahib nor the Dasam Granth Sahib, but we believe in it anyway.

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3 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Thank you for your response. Since we have gotten the historical aspects out of the way, lets talk about the philosophical aspects that define a "Sikh" which they use as a loophole. How would you counter their argument that the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji doesn't say that following Human Gurus after Guru Gobind Singh Ji is banned or that a Sikh cannot follow another human Guru? 

 

In terms of Gurbani, as I stated in my original post, Gurbani defines a "Sikh" in very universal terms, and doesn't outright condemn following a human Guru. 

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru the True Guru shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

You could make the argument that "Sikh of the Guru the True Guru"  is reffering to Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Waheguru, in which case, following a modern day human Guru would not be covered in this definition. 

The Sikh Rehat Maryada is already Khalsa oriented and defines a "Sikh" as anyone who "faithfully believes" in: 

 

* One God. 

* The Sikh Gurus from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji & Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

* The writings and teachings of all the Gurus.   

* The initiation into the Khalsa created by the 10th Guru. 

* Does not identify with any other faith.  

I have no problem with these self proclaimed "Naamdharis" as long as they dont claim to be Sikhs, but rather distance themselves from the associating with Sikhi and just follow their own stuff, however they are trying to make the argument that since it doesn't litterally condemn human Gurus, it should be allowed. 

 

The simplest one is in Guru Granth Sahib ji

SGGSJ Ang 982
Nat Mahala 4
Nat Guru Ram Das
bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]

baanee guroo guroo hai baanee vich baanee anmrith saarae ||

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5]
gur baanee kehai saevak jan maanai parathakh guroo nisathaarae ||5||

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||


Ang 55:

Sri Raag Mahala 1

 

ਨਾਵੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਹਉ ਵਸਾਂ ਨਾਉ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥੫॥
नावै अंदरि हउ वसां नाउ वसै मनि आइ ॥५॥
Nāvai anḏar ha▫o vasāʼn nā▫o vasai man ā▫e. ||5||
I dwell deep within the Name; the Name has come to dwell within my mind. ||5||
 
ਬਾਝੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਬੂਝ ਪਾਇ
बाझु गुरू गुबारु है बिनु सबदै बूझ न पाइ ॥
Bājẖ gurū gubār hai bin sabḏai būjẖ na pā▫e.
Without the Guru, there is only pitch darkness; without the Shabad, understanding is not obtained.
 
ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਸਚਿ ਰਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ
गुरमती परगासु होइ सचि रहै लिव लाइ ॥
Gurmaṯī pargās ho▫e sacẖ rahai liv lā▫e.
Through the Guru's Teachings, you shall be enlightened; remain absorbed in the Love of the True Lord.
 
ਤਿਥੈ ਕਾਲੁ ਸੰਚਰੈ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੬॥
तिथै कालु न संचरै जोती जोति समाइ ॥६॥
Ŧithai kāl na sancẖrai joṯī joṯ samā▫e. ||6||
Death does not go there; your light shall merge with the Light. ||6||
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Dehdharis cannot claim to be eternal, foresee their own demise nor can they directly offer sachkhand. All self proclaimed Guru's rely on Satguru, none uchar Gurbani, they twist it to further their selfish requirements. 

 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਗੁਣ ਨਾਮ ਕਾ ਮੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਖਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ
The True Guru is the Ocean of Virtue of Naam, the Name of the Lord. I have such a yearning to see Him!”
(Ang 758)

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ
ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧੩॥
My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go. He is the Imperishable Creator Lord; He is permeating and pervading among all. ||13||”

 

Parchia Sewa das - 1709 (The suffix 'Guru' is applied each time the Granth is mentioned)
Gursobha Bhai Sainapat - 1711 (Maharaj says Gurgaddi is given to the Khalsa and Gurbani, - Satgur shabad hamara)
Bhai Chaupa Singh - 1730s (Suffix 'Guru' is given to the Granth).
Bansavalinama 1769 - The Granth is the Guru in this age.

 

 

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we really need to improve our own panth before we concentrate on naamdharis.

 

Naamdharis seem to be doing a great job of preserving sikhi traditions like raag keertan and dasam bani. The only way we can convince other "sikhs" like naamdharis is by first following Guru's traditional maryada, which we are being lazy and dreadful at at the moment while naamdharis seem to be doing things better.

So when are we going to wake up?

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6 minutes ago, ipledgeblue said:

we really need to improve our own panth before we concentrate on naamdharis.

 

Naamdharis seem to be doing a great job of preserving sikhi traditions like raag keertan and dasam bani. The only way we can convince other "sikhs" like naamdharis is by first following Guru's traditional maryada, which we are being lazy and dreadful at at the moment while naamdharis seem to be doing things better.

So when are we going to wake up?

Put this logic to test.  Muslims were doing a great job of bringing people to their religion.  What was wrong with the Gurus who stood in their way.  

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9 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

Put this logic to test.  Muslims were doing a great job of bringing people to their religion.  What was wrong with the Gurus who stood in their way.  

exactly, and even though the naamdharis aren't following hukam of Adi Granth as Guru roop, they are following some traditions which are very important to being a sikh. The problem with mainstream sikhs is, that we have the ego in saying we are following Guru ji and so are the true sikhs, however we are not ready to follow the enriching and spiritual traditions of Guru ji which the naamdharis are already following.

We must shed this ego first and follow actual maryada. At the moment there are cults/sects which claim to follow Adi Granth as Guru but at the same time they are destroying the sikhi traditions far worse than the naamdharis are. 

Just a few years back one of the split branches of naamdharis said they want to come back to following Adi Guru Granth Sahib like rest of panth. If we had sikhs like that instead of the lazy ones now, how the panth would improve!

At the moment I kind of respect naamdharis because mainstream sikhs make me ashamed as they are not trying as hard at following maryada, and some sects are trying to destroy our traditions. Maybe in another reality or time things would be different and I would be able to respect mainstream sikhs instead of others.

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2 hours ago, ipledgeblue said:

exactly, and even though the naamdharis aren't following hukam of Adi Granth as Guru roop, they are following some traditions which are very important to being a sikh. The problem with mainstream sikhs is, that we have the ego in saying we are following Guru ji and so are the true sikhs, however we are not ready to follow the enriching and spiritual traditions of Guru ji which the naamdharis are already following.

We must shed this ego first and follow actual maryada. At the moment there are cults/sects which claim to follow Adi Granth as Guru but at the same time they are destroying the sikhi traditions far worse than the naamdharis are. 

Just a few years back one of the split branches of naamdharis said they want to come back to following Adi Guru Granth Sahib like rest of panth. If we had sikhs like that instead of the lazy ones now, how the panth would improve!

At the moment I kind of respect naamdharis because mainstream sikhs make me ashamed as they are not trying as hard at following maryada, and some sects are trying to destroy our traditions. Maybe in another reality or time things would be different and I would be able to respect mainstream sikhs instead of others.

Another Sikh who hates himself.  Plus you did not understand my post to you.  

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Mainstream Sikhs can always be doing a better job of staying with maryada.  But the first and utmost important maryada is to only accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as the Guru.  Naamdhari failed to obey this maryada.  Singing Gurbani in raag means nothing to them because they don't accept the Gurus hukam.  Japji sahib is clear; accept Gurus hukam only.  Naamdhari accept a pakhandis hukam.  

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On 26/12/2017 at 2:13 AM, Akalifauj said:

Mainstream Sikhs can always be doing a better job of staying with maryada.  But the first and utmost important maryada is to only accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as the Guru.  Naamdhari failed to obey this maryada.  Singing Gurbani in raag means nothing to them because they don't accept the Gurus hukam.  Japji sahib is clear; accept Gurus hukam only.  Naamdhari accept a pakhandis hukam.  

they are, but when will mainstream accept the Guru hukam of doing keertan?

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On 12/28/2017 at 3:19 AM, ipledgeblue said:

they are, but when will mainstream accept the Guru hukam of doing keertan?

Accepting the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Guru is far more important than doing fancy kirtan.

 

The type of Kirtan that namdharis do isnt "preserved" from the original kirtan the Guru did, they had to go to others to learn it. Doing kirtan a certain way means nothing if you dont have love for the Guru, the SAT GURU which isnt any of the fake Namdhari babas...

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10 minutes ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Accepting the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Guru is far more important than doing fancy kirtan.

The type of Kirtan that namdharis do isnt "preserved" from the original kirtan the Guru did, they had to go to others to learn it. Doing kirtan a certain way means nothing if you dont have love for the Guru, the SAT GURU which isnt any of the fake Namdhari babas...

You mean Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Not "the". And it's a bit insulting to Raag Vidya to call it "fancy kirtan".

And you should look up the definitions of preserve.

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