Guru Arjan Dev ji di shaheedi - true culprits

[Not2Cool2Argue]

On 6/10/2019 at 4:55 PM, dallysingh101 said:

I think they were hardcore too, especially when it came to directly confronting external challenges even when these were dangerous. But I actually also think they were more realistic and open minded about the world and its realities than most modern amritdharis are today, if that makes sense. They can't have been closeted during all of the events of the 18th century surely. That's impossible. Even if (theoretically) some of our ancestors tried to closet their offspring, the events around them would have pretty much ensured that this didn't happen. 

Could today's arguable naivety be explained as a consequence of the colonial period leading to detaching the sangat from Dasam Bani and a lot of other thought provoking literature - and imposing a low quality 'education system' in its place. And promoting very simple-minded, rural cultural practices and thinking in the void too - for social-control and economic reasons?  

One of the reasons cited by Sant S Maskeen ji is the take down of mahants. He said some mahants were bad but no all. And mahants ensured proper maryada and vidhya at gurudwaras. He says during mahants time, there was katha 2 times a day, once of ithihaas like suraj parkash in the evening and the other of Gurbani. Later when SGPC took over they had paid granthis etc, and the caliber of granthis and gurudelwara caretakers went down. 

Maskeen ji talks abt this in his book Gurudware de Sanbaand Baare or some similar title. It is avaikabe as an audio book and online book too. I forge where though. He also said that SGPC did no favors to us. It replaced mahants with corrupt, drunken, shaved prabandiks and committees and elections. I dont know if he is completely right tho. The mahants of Nanakana sahib were atrocious. They assaulted a lady and when the sangat protested, they joined forces with gore. Also the mahants at Harmandar sahib were casteist. So i guess SGPC should have also created a school for future granthis or had a deal with taksaal, to send some graduates to fill granthi positions. With all its faults, even now Taksal is abke to produce shardaawan paathis who at least know abt sooraj parkash and some santhiya and suchimata. 

Also lack of good granthis which was the mahants were, probably lead to an absence of local religious elders, villagers could go to and that lead to other babas poaching into panjab. 

Ur theory abt, some sikhs being simpletons and some being high caliber, educated ppl also makes sense. But in the olden days, the simpletons had good leaders to follow and good faith. With elections and prabandhik comitteea, politics got into religious institutions, and religious character and knowledge were no longer a requirement. 

I was horrified to learn of the Sudanese revolution. I was sure it was run by uneducated, idle youth and would plunge the country into decades long war like in yemen, sirya etc. But i was surprised to learn the revolution was lead by professional organisation of Sudan. Its is made up of esucated ppl in professional career of lawyers, professors etc. They are the ones making demands, speeches, and rallying the common folk in peaceful protests. And the most important part is that the common ppl listen to them. When asked abt how long they would protest, the commoners said, We trust CPW the organisation. We will come to protest until they tell us to stop. And until the organization itself says the demands have been met. So simpleton ppl can be the main strength of a army/religion if they are united and lead in the right path.  That is why sikh history also looks so well upon sikh jathedaars too and why mostly only their accounts are known to us. They probably were the best of the panth at that time. 

That was the strength of the panth: Not only unity but unity under good learned leaders. This is illustrated by Bhai Taru singhs saakhi. Bhai subheg singh went to the dal khalsa on behalf of the tyrant king. Sikhs didnt brand him traitor but  listened to him. Also afterwards, sikhs took the nawabi on bhai subhegs singhs behest. Nowadays, sikhs would brand Bhai Subheg singh, someone not fighting with the sikhs and in the enemys government as a traitor, coward or mere career politician. We dont appreciate scholars, politicians, skilled artisans. Only warriors.Under Guru Gobind Singh Ji Bhai Nand Lal.was as respected as the warriors, if not more so. Also Sant Jarnail Singh ji also talked with Profeesr Kapoor singh. Ofc bhai subheg singh was a high caliber sikh, who put sikhi above all and was able to give shaheedi too. Nowadays sikh leaders/politicians are not to be trusted at all ofc, but we do need diversity in our skills and unity at the same time. And blind faith or blind followers/simpletons are.not a bad thing if we can manage them. They will always be there, so sooner we learn to herd them the better. 

 

[dallysingh101]

^^^ Some good points there.

I'm going to dig out some old references to the event and scan and post them later. 

[BhForce]

On 6/14/2019 at 3:53 AM, chatanga1 said:

In katha of this episode, after the shaheedi of Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Guru Sahib said that "ਚੰਦੂ ਦੇ ਨੱਕ ਵਿਚ ਨਕੇਲ ਪਾਉਣਾ " and this frightened the Sikhs who complained to Mata Ganga about Guru Sahibs words. Chandu was given as a prisoner to the Sikhs after some time and then killed in Lahore.

 

Have a read of this:

http://punjabipedia.org/topic.aspx?txt=ਚੰਦੂ ਸ਼ਾਹ

Read it.

I agree that every historical event has multiple causes. And Chandu was the immediate cause of Guru ji's Shaheedi. It was by his immediate hand or command that the Shaheedi happened. At the same time, it wouldn't do to absolve Jahangir or the Muslim kazis who encouraged Jahangir.

Especially given Jahangir's own testimony written by himself.

[BhForce]

On 6/14/2019 at 10:59 AM, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Maskeen ji talks abt this in his book Gurudware de Sanbaand Baare or some similar title.

Desh Videsh de Gurdwarian de Parbandh Bare

[Akalifauj]

This is a very good video.  Thanks for posting it here.

[Jonny101]

On 6/10/2019 at 3:45 AM, MisterrSingh said:

The rishta issue was a tiny, barely significant contributing factor in among many other greater issues. Who's arguing it was the only or major reason for shaheedi?

Now days this video is very important. I've noticed many people out of Islamo-Philia in the last few years down playing the atrocities of Muslim rulers in the past and inflating the role of Hindus. This can be seen by many misguided Khalistanis. 

 

Besides very few know about the Sirhindi, Jahangir role in Guru jees Shaheedi unless you have read books by Dr Ganda Singh and Sirdar Kapoor Singh. You talk to any Sikh or even Kathavachak about Sirhindi they would have no idea who this person is.

 

Nothing wrong with being friendly with Muslims. But one should not try to change history out of one's political inclinations.

[dallysingh101]

Interesting piece on this very topic:

https://www.scribd.com/document/317212279/Guru-Arjan-Martyred-by-Shamanistic-Law-Sirdar-Kapur-Singh