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puzzled

Divorce in Sikhi

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In Sikhi there is no mention of divorce, i don't think it is mentioned in any Dharmic faith. So when Sikhs "divorce"  what happens? if there is no concept of divorce does that mean if a couple divorces by law that they still are married in the eyes of God?  So even if you are "divorced" in the eyes of the law you are still actually married   because Guru ji gives us no concept of divorce.

no offence to divorcees 

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1 hour ago, puzzled said:

In Sikhi there is no mention of divorce, i don't think it is mentioned in any Dharmic faith. So when Sikhs "divorce"  what happens? if there is no concept of divorce does that mean if a couple divorces by law that they still are married in the eyes of God?  So even if you are "divorced" in the eyes of the law you are still actually married   because Guru ji gives us no concept of divorce.

no offence to divorcees 

they are still married to Akal Purakh which is what the meaning is for a sikh of Anand Karaj mainly , even though we dedicate ourselves to help our partners if they are not into sikhi we still have to strive on an individual basis . I used to think as a kid that it was a one time deal unless seperated by death. Logically if a sikh follows Guru ji's hukham all others are family not possible matches if you partner is still alive .Which people were extra careful before getting their kids married off , now it seems with gora culture they are lax prior because if it goes wrong you can still get a divorce which is a shameful attitude to carry because kids could be involved .

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10 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

they are still married to Akal Purakh which is what the meaning is for a sikh of Anand Karaj mainly

What? I have never heard this. The simplest explanation of Anand Karaaj is when two people make a promise to Guru Sahib to fulfil their ghrist duty and help each other in Sikhi Jeevan which of course would be having Guru Sahib at the centre of the relationship. It is not marriage to Akaal Purkh.

I wouldn't use this example anyway but even if you did want to, what you said is still flawed because by conflating Anand Kaaraj as "marriage to Akaal Purkh" you are implying those great Gursikhs who didn't have Anand Kaaraj were not married to Akaal Purkh.

The marriage metaphor/analogy in Sikhi refers to death anyhow.

1 hour ago, puzzled said:

In Sikhi there is no mention of divorce, i don't think it is mentioned in any Dharmic faith. So when Sikhs "divorce"  what happens? if there is no concept of divorce does that mean if a couple divorces by law that they still are married in the eyes of God?  So even if you are "divorced" in the eyes of the law you are still actually married   because Guru ji gives us no concept of divorce.

I think it would just be a case by case basis because every situation is different. Probably with a decision best made on the advice of elder Gursikhs or Panj Singh who have been properly informed of the issues.

The fact remains even if you see marriage as more contractual as people did in the days of old, life is no longer as simple as it was then, people are no longer as simple, and sh!t goes wrong.

There is no one blanket ruling. And we should be realistic about these things in the Panth.

I think something like....if two people absolutely cannot find any resolution even with intervention, and those involved (the elders or Panj Singh) recognise this and are in agreement with all factors considered, they should give the two individuals tankah, make the ruling that their promise and obligation has now ceased and send em on their way.

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But when people divorce, they divorce from the piece of paper they signed, the registry marriage?   they dont divorce from the actual Anand Karaj, there is no such thing as divorcing from the Anand Karaj   Guru ji never gave us such a thing.   In this country we have 2 marriages, the signature on the piece of paper which makes us married under the eyes of the law, and then Anand Karaj which makes us married in the eyes of God and Guru ji,  You can divorce under the law and break away from that signature on that piece of paper, that divorce only ends that contract/marriage, signature to end signature    but it does not end the Anand Karaj   there is nothing there which ends that Anand Karaj.   Your basically forever married 

Divorce isnt a Dharmic thing, i think hindus believe they are married for 7 lives etc  

I'm not married and know nothing about marriage or how it works    but this did cross my mind  ... 

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@puzzled this is why I suggested the Panj Singh - they are considered an authority and represent the Guru. In theory, they can release one from this obligation by the power vested in them. They regularly make judgements concerning other matters e.g. when one has made a mistake, or when one needs guidance or permission of things that fall in a grey area. Along with many other things.

But I also said in my suggestion that there would be a price to pay; tankah/punishment.

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From what I am aware of, a divorcee can no longer do seva in the Panj (even if they re-marry).

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I tell you what, I'd never advocate for a women to constantly be on the receiving end of abuse (both mental and physical). People might get all 'technical' about it, but the reality is if someone in your own family (like a sister or daughter) who you cared for, ended up getting married to some abusive animal (and it CAN easily happen!), you'd be a fool to tell them to endure this for their entire lives. 

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8 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I tell you what, I'd never advocate for a women to constantly be on the receiving end of abuse (both mental and physical). People might get all 'technical' about it, but the reality is if someone in your own family (like a sister or daughter) who you cared for, ended up getting married to some abusive animal (and it CAN easily happen!), you'd be a fool to tell them to endure this for their entire lives. 

why do you think Guru Sahiban got so specific about prospective groom's gunns if it wasn't important to follow ? it was to avoid this hellish existence for His Daughters . You are not to do child marriage, marriage of young girl to old man , Kaur to non-believers  or into a household who are non-believers . Enter at leisure , without pressurising from outside parties, no money is be demanded or exchanged for daughter (bride price of Muslim) son (daaj of hindus), The girl should be accepted in the clothes she stands in, nothing more expected. The bharat is supposed to be small and the size which places no pressure on the Bride's folks i.e. with their argeement .  If you really look into it and how pure its heart is, and what people do these days it is not anand karaj  and therefore why are we surprised it is doomed to founder?

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I strongly believe that divorcee should not do any of the panthic level sewa regardless of whatever situation is. I have seen some known camp counselors who are divorced and yet they are the main speakers and attend events as main speakers. What giyan they can give to the kids? Topic needs to be discussed. 

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Think people need to start focusing on themselves,  rather than judging others. Just remember all the people you talk about have the same joyt as you.

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Dear sangat ji reading this and op, sat sri akal ji,

the 'divorce' you are talking about is part of the maya as is the 'marriage' that happened.

True gursikh 'marriage' never happened in the first place.
Humbly implying, it comes to divorce if the marriage didn't happen with gurbani in the heart.

If you a true gurmukh(as opposed to manmukhs, not as opposed to hair trimmers) then the marriage would have lead to spiritual growth of both partners. Even if one succumbs to one's ego and does undesirable acts, the other gursikh partner acts as the saint and the soldier to defeat it out of their life, under the guidance of bani.

Those undergoing a divorce situation should take a little bit time off, read sggs until the doubts are cleared and reflect upon the beginnings of the marriage and whether it was a marriage in accordance with gurbani? It will clear doubts and show the right path.

As to the question of in the eyes of god, god is not away from you.
Hukam is personal, so divorce being righteous cannot be generalized.
For eg; if there is adultery then it means at the time of marriage the present parties didn't understand the first laava, that says,

ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਵੇਦੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਹੁ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਾਇਆ ਬਲਿ ਰਾਮ ਜੀਉ ॥
baanee brahamaa vedh dharam dhiraRahu paap tajaiaa bal raam jeeau ||

So the partners didn't remember that they have to renounce sinful acts.

***

Guruji provides four steps on how one's soul can marry the lord in that song on pg 773 of sggs that is ritually read as 4 laavan.
1st round: Renouncing sinful acts brings fortune and happiness
2nd: Understanding the primal being(purakh), the fearless(nirbhau) ego is destroyed and one hears the unstruck sound (anhad naad)
3rd: Meeting the saints, their baani speaking of the unsaid speech(akath kahani), one understands the root(hari) and is filled with love
Finally: As a gurmukh(absorbed in truth) absorbed in the sweetness, one finds peace and the soul blends(liv layi) with the indestructible.

***
Both, anger and expectation of love from one's partner(krodh and mamta) are pains of egotism says gurbaani.

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