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Mods before you reject this, the reason i have wanted to stay gupt is because, rather than everyone dive on me, i want all the sangat to think about these lines from Sukhmani Sahib Ji. I myself am guilty of this and so are many others if they are honest, just lately i have noticed we are all and myself (with the exception of some, very few in fact) getting into arguments over nothing sometimes very silly points and trying to show how much more cleverer we are than each other or even better human beings. And then we have others who just come on and say we should not be on a particular side, but more tolerant etc, when they should try to diffuse the situation and say enough stop, but the truth is they are actually getting a kick from seeing others arguing. Hence trying to show they are good. I am not pointing at anyone in particular and i myself am the worst culprit !! But you know what lets love each other, forget our difference, because we are the children of the same father. Here are the lines i have taken, have we become like this ? aapas ka-o jo bhalaa kahaavai. One who calls himself good tiseh bhalaa-ee nikat na aavai. goodness shall not draw near him. Bhul chuk maf. Mods veerji if you refuse this, i understand.

Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing, and not because they have anything intelligent to add to the discussion. This is the biggest problem in online forums, especially this one. It's a shame because plenty of interesting discussions get derailed once people's big egos start taking over and the thread becomes more about proving each other wrong and "showing off" how much knowledge we have rather than enlightening one another with pyar (love) and nimrata (humility) and these two weapons are the best to use when you want to show somebody the right path.

PP jee, just like Hindus should be thankful to Sahib Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jee for protecting their faith, Muslims need to be thankful to Sahib-E-Kamal Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee for NOT harboring any ill-will towards Muslims inspite of the shaheediyaan of His Father and His 4 sons, for NOT commanding His Khalsa fauj to seek revenge from Muslims. Had he ordered just once to take revenge, I swear the Singhs would have ripped open the entire Middle East all the way to Morocco considering the fact how martially ferocious they were back then. Baba Banda Bahadur and Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa are names your qaum should never forget. Afghans/Pathaans were the bravest among your folks and were hammered by the Singhs right inside their homes in Kabul, thanks to the forces of Maharaja Ranjit Singh under Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa. Go read about what Western authors have said about him. They were glad he was killed in battle as they feared he was all set to march right into Europe. So I repeat, Muslims need to be thankful to Sahib-E-Kamal Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee for NOT harboring any ill-will towards Muslims inspite of the shaheediyaan of His Father and His 4 sons, for NOT commanding His Khalsa fauj to seek revenge from Muslims. If you think Islam will dominate in future and the Muslim populations will rise, well, good for you. Just make sure to teach them how to live in peace with the Sikhs. Don't play with fire, don't stoke the sparks of our historic passion which we carry within us. Teach them about the Battle of Chamkaur and the Battle of Saragarhi, and in the end make sure to end your talk with the phrase "They've done this before, they can do it again, so please live in harmony with them even if they are a mere 1% of your numbers".

Newly blessed Amritdharis from Mathaana, Madhya Pradesh! DHANN HAI TU DHANN DHANN DHANN KHALSA!!!!!

One should be sincere with themselves and not make Sikhi a show and just bow down to Guru Granth Sahib Jee to show themselves as a Sikh. Bowing down alone is nothing....it's Karam Kaand/ritual. Along with bowing down, one should have faith and belief. Also, one should have qualities of a good listener and sevak. Also, one should not only bow down and listen, but also read at their own pace. While listening and reading, one should accept Guru's Teachings and Hukams. True acceptance of those Teachings and Hukams is seen when the person applies it in their day-to-day, breath-to-breath, action-to-action life. ਜਾਤਿ - ਸਮਾਜ ਵਿੱਚ ਇੱਕ ਤੋਂ ਦੂਜੇ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਖ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਵੰਡ. ਰੋਟੀ ਬੇਟੀ ਦੀ ਸਾਂਝ ਵਾਲੀ ਬਰਾਦਰੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਵੰਡ. ਇਸ ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਨਸਲੀ ਭੇਦ, ਭੌਗੋਲਿਕ ਭੇਦ, ਇਤਿਹਾਸੀ ਵੈਰ, ਕਿਰਤ ਵਿਹਾਰ ਦੇ ਭੇਦ ਆਦਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਹਨ. ਜਾਤਿ ਦੀ ਵੰਡ ਕਿਸੇ ਨਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਸ਼ਕਲ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਾਰੇ ਦੇਸਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਧਰਮਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਵੇਖੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਹੱਦੋਂ ਵਧਕੇ ਹੈ.#ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨ ਨੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਦੇ ਅਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਭਰੇ ਵਿਸ਼੍ਵਾਸਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਦੇਸ਼ ਲਈ ਹਾਨੀਕਾਰਕ ਜਾਣਕੇ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਆਵਾਜ਼ ਉਠਾਈ ਅਤੇ ਦੇਸ਼ ਦੇਸ਼ਾਂਤਰਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿਚਰਕੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਾਣੀ ਦ੍ਵਾਰਾ ਨਿਸ਼ਚੇ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਕਿ ਸਾਰੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਸ ਇੱਕ ਪਿਤਾ ਦੀ ਸੰਤਾਨ ਹੈ. ਉੱਚ ਅਤੇ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਹੈ, ਯਥਾ- ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ, ਨ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਤੀ, ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਹੇ।#(ਆਸਾ ਮਃ ੧)#ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ।ਤੇਹਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ.#(ਆਸਾ ਮਃ ੩)#ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਸੇ ਊਤਮਾ, ਜਤਿ ਪਤਿ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੋਇ,#ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਸਭ ਨੀਚ ਜਾਤਿ ਹੈ, ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕਾ ਕੀੜਾ ਹੋਇ.#(ਆਸਾ ਮਃ ੩)#ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰੀਅਹੁ ਕੋਈ,#ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਹੋਈ.#ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਵਾਰਾ,#ਇਸ ਗਰਬ ਤੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ.#ਚਾਰੇ ਬਰਨ ਆਖੈ ਸਭੁਕੋਈ,#ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ.#ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ,#ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਘੜੇ ਕੁਮ੍ਹਾਰਾ.#ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਾ ਆਕਾਰਾ,#ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕੋ ਕਰੈ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ.#ਕਹਤੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਮਬੰਧੁ ਹੋਈ,#ਬਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ.#(ਭੈਰ ਮਃ ੩)#ਜਾਤਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨਹ ਪੂਛੀਐ, ਸਚੁਘਰੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਤਾਇ,#ਸਾ ਜਾਤਿ, ਸਾ ਪਤਿ ਹੈ, ਜੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ. (ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਮਃ ੧)#ਗਰਭਵਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤੀ,#ਬ੍ਰਹਮਬਿੰਦੁ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਉਤਪਾਤੀ.#ਕਹੁਰੇ ਪੰਡਿਤ, ਬਾਮਨ ਕਬਕੇ ਹੋਏ,#ਬਾਮਨ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਮਤ ਖੋਏ.#ਜੌ ਤੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਜਾਇਆ,#ਤਉ ਆਨ ਬਾਟ ਕਾਹੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਇਆ?#ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ, ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ?#ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ?#ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ,#ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ. (ਗਉ ਕਬੀਰ)#ਕੋਊ ਭਯੋ ਮੁੰਡੀਆ ਸੰਨ੍ਯਾਸੀ ਕੋਊ ਯੋਗੀ ਭਯੋ,#ਭਯੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਚਾਰੀ ਕੋਊ ਯਤੀ ਅਨੁਮਾਨਬੋ,#ਹਿੰਦੂ ਔ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫ਼ਜ਼ੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸ਼ਾਫ਼ੀ,#ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਭ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ.#ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ, ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਮਾਜ ਓਈ,#ਮਾਨਸ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ, ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਹੈ.#ਦੇਵਤਾ ਅਦੇਵ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਤੁਰਕ ਹਿੰਦੂ,#ਨ੍ਯਾਰੇ ਨ੍ਯਾਰੇ ਦੇਸਨ ਕੇ ਭੇਸ ਕੋ ਸੁਭਾਵ ਹੈ.#ਏਕੈ ਨੈਨ, ਏਕੈ ਕਾਨ, ਏਕੈ ਦੇਹ, ਏਕੈ ਬਾਨ,#ਖ਼ਾਕ ਬਾਦ ਆਤਸ਼ ਔ ਆਬ ਕੋ ਰਲਾਵ ਹੈ.#ਅੱਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ, ਪੁਰਾਨ ਔ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ,#ਏਕਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਵ ਹੈ.#(ਅਕਾਲ)#ਸਾਧੁ ਕਰਮ ਜੋ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵੈਂ,#ਨਾਮ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਵੈਂ.#ਕੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਰਹੀਂ,#ਨਾਮ ਅਸੁਰ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਜਗ ਧਰਹੀਂ. (ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ)#ਘਿਉ ਭਾਂਡਾ ਨ ਵਿਚਾਰੀਐ,#ਭਗਤਾਂ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨਾਤਿ ਨ ਕਾਈ.#(ਭਾਗੁ, ਵਾਰ ੨੫)#ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀਮੱਲ ਅਰੁ ਤੁਲਸਾ ਦੋਇ,#ਹੁਤੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਕੇ ਭੱਲੇ ਸੋਇ,#ਸੁਨ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਤਬ ਚਲ ਆਏ,#ਨਮੋ ਕਰੀ ਬੈਠੇ ਢਿਗ ਥਾਏ.#ਉਰ ਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਗਿਰਾ ਉਚਾਰੀ:-#"ਏਕੋ ਜਾਤ ਹਮਾਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ."ਸ਼੍ਰੀਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰ ਭਨ੍ਯੋ ਸੁਨ ਸੋਇ:-#"ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਕੀ ਨਹਿਂ ਕੋਇ.#ਉਪਜਹਿਂ ਜੇ ਸ਼ਰੀਰ ਜਗ ਮਾਹੀਂ,#ਇਨ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਾਚ ਸੋ ਨਾਹੀਂ,#ਬਿਨਸਜਾਤ ਇਹ ਜਰਜਰਿ ਹੋਇ,#ਆਗੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਜਾਤ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਇ.#'ਆਗੈ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜੋਰੁ ਹੈ, ਅਗੈ ਜੀਉ ਨਵੇ,#ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੈ, ਚੰਗੇ ਸੇਈ ਕੇਇ. '#ਇਮ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਕ ਉਚਾਰਾ,#ਆਗੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜੋਰ ਸਿਧਾਰਾ,#ਉਪਜੈ ਤੁਨ ਇਤਹੀ ਬਿਨਸੰਤੇ,#ਆਗੇ ਸੰਗ ਨ ਕਿਸੇ ਚਲੰਤੇ.#ਸਿਮਰ੍ਯੋ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਸਦੀਵਾ,#ਸਿੱਖਨ ਸੇਵ ਕਰੀ ਮਨ ਨੀਵਾਂ,#ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਪਤ ਲੇਖੇ ਪਰਜਾਇ,#ਜਾਤਿ ਕੁਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਪਰਖਹਿ ਕਾਇ." (ਗੁਪ੍ਰਸੂ)

Great post bro. As much as my opinion of Prophet Muhammad's life is very very low, my honest respect for Pakistani Punjabi Muslim Arains in the Diaspora is very high. It's a great community, very enterprising and decent people. Shame that Arain figures from history like Zia and the sellouts that collaborated with the Mughals were of a different calibre. But we Sikhs do believe that good Muslims like your Thayah Ji (regardless of the beliefs one is bought up with) will be judged solely by their actions (which can be far better than a Sikh like mine's) so I do hope your Thayah Ji is in a spiritual Jannah where God's love encapsulates all those who live their lives truthfully. "Ameen" to that.

Your examples can apply to any Sikh community in any part of world ( UK, USA, Norway, Australia Italy etc.) You can find bad apples in other communities (Sikh and Non-Sikh). One thing I would say about Sikhs in Canada is they tend to have a lot of influence in the government compare to other minorities despite the fact they make up about 1.5% of Canada's population.

Sounds like a weak response to me.........a recipe to invite someone to insult you. Sikhism is unaffected but if we are not willing to defend it, then that does not inspire confidence in others of our faith. I think most civilised people can see when the intent is to insult. Insulting a religion in order to provoke a response is VERY extreme. Not terrified at all, but aware of what is happening and who the sort of people are who support the EDL. I'm not saying them disagreeing with Sikhs is worse than grooming; you are not understanding the context of my posts or the point I am making, I was clearly addressing the type of people who are in the EDL and how we need to understand this before desperately jumping onto their bandwagon. How they have been against Sikhs in certain issues as-well. The amount of racism Sikhs have suffered after 9/11. My point was that 1) it is an attack on Islam the religion 2) if they sort out the Muslims, then Sikhs (or any community who wants to be distinct) will be next. There are much more real issues in the UK than the 'Islamification' of Britain........there is no national identity, community spirit has gone, family values have broken down, white people have moved away from ethnic majority areas, multiculturalism has failed, the economy is crumbling.....Brits want their country back. THESE are the problems. Sad to see that you view the disrespect of your religion as a 'tiny' thing. What is "better than that", is it tolerating disrespect and letting it get BIGGER AND BIGGER ? Today it was a theatre play, tomorrow it will be a television program, after that a film. If we stayed silent the insults would escalate. Yes, 'honour' is a topic that has led to a great deal of stupidity in the Sikh community, I totally agree with you. The stupidity of a once proud, dignified people losing their honour and where they would never have tolerated promiscuous behaviour amongst their girls to the situation today where they promote and encourage equality and feminism (anything stupid the man can do, I can do as-well) and then cry that their girls are out of their control !!! The stupidity of honourable people losing such priceless virtues. The stupidity of how we would never have tolerated our children getting married outside the religion to where we invite them to have their marriage inside the Gurdwara and give them a siropa afterwards !!! Come on..............be real. Having heard the views of white people who left Southall/West London I can assure you the majority of cases was not because they got wealthier and got better jobs..............most of them were working class and not very good academically. The real reason is that they didn't like living amongst Asians and we were accused of the same things that we hear against Muslims today.....they stick to themselves, don't integrate, it doesn't feel like England anymore etc etc. A lot of Britain has 'no-go' areas....generally unemployed, criminal, gangster type youth who have respect for no-one. Well the BNP have been trying for longer than the EDL...............it doesn't mean Sikhs should join them. You're talking about morals and fairness while advocating we support racists ??? I have shown you they are not just against militant Islam or Islamification............they are against Islam. Shouting "who the f**k is the Allah", "Muhammad is a p**do".....in one demonstration they were going to burn the Koran to shouts of "burn it, burn it !!!". Are these the sort of people Sikhs want to be supporting....have we become THAT desperate ??? They have come to us because they need to push us forward in their fight against Muslims....this is OBVIOUS. No community is supporting the EDL at the moment, even though they claim they have blacks, jews, sikhs, hindus supporting them, how many do you see in their protest videos ? Sikhs are CLEARLY being used and set-up here...there are even videos on youtube claiming that Sikhs are the EDL's allies !!! If Sikhs were to support them it would tarnish our name turning the vast majority of good Muslims (who have had nothing to do with grooming) against us and increase tensions between communities.

Heard it yesterday, simply superb! The things about Sant Jee he states from KS Brar's book are mind boggling!

MUST WATCH: **1984 TRUTH EXPOSED :: SANT BHINDRANWALE** FEARLESS PARCHAR IN 2013 PUNJAB BY SANT DHADRIANWALE ONLY A VERY FEW CAN OPENLY DO SUCH FEARLESS PARCHAR WITHIN THE CURRENT TIMES OF 2013 PUNJAB. THIS MUST BE WATCHED.

Why Sign?? Guru Gobind Singh Ji protected his children from stopping them entering the cinema which was NOT sat sangat. they shud hav done ardaas and be pleased that maharaj stopped them! But they have te audasity the appeal?!?! We should thank the cinema staff for doing this seva. SAB MEHE JOT JOT HAI SOE JAB LAG KHALSA REHE NIARA TAB LAG TEJ DEEO MAI SAARA JAN EHE GAI BIPARAN KEE REET MAI NA KARO IN KEE PARTEET

You cannot be serious. I don't understand a word you are saying.

My faith is not weak, and nor was that of my forefathers....who never tolerated insults to their religion. This, unfortunately, is a recent thing which started with the insulting of Christianity in this country which has cause a lot of problems for the British people. Sad to see that you support it. The only crybaby is you. You can't take it when someone points the facts about EDL. It's not about being afraid....you asked how the EDL are racist I showed you, and now you can't take it. I'm not worried about anything. How terribly sad that you tolerate insults to your faith....maybe because you didn't care about it in the first place. You are so obsessed with Muslims that every argument has to come back to them. Get a grip. You're the only one crying here. So desperately scared of Muslims that you saying Sikhs should join a right-wing organisation. Am I saying we should join Muslims ???? Who's the petrified one here ? I was just showing you that members of the EDL are racist against us as-well....which is one reason why we shouldn't join them. But, you ignore the point I am making and keep crying. I was just answering your question. That is due to our failure to tell people about who we are and also the media being too politically correct and scared of saying 'Muslim'. Again, pathetic that you would excuse racism against your own people. Was it the case in the UK as-well that they don't know who Sikhs are ? It was racism, plain and simple. And to spell it out for you (as you seem incapable of understanding), I am trying to show you that the current undercurrent of anger is more than just against Muslims. There are some big issues brewing in the UK and Sikhs shouldn't be used as cannon fodder. Look at the bigger picture. Stop crying, no-one was killed or raped over the play. I consider the destruction of a way of life / culture truly disrespectful. Your values are truly messed up......leaving Sikh values and adopting chav values. If you look at our history we have never tolerated disrespect of our religion. In fact the recent struggle from 1978 actually started from this issue. Even the rehatnamey say "Gur Ki Ninda sunai na kaan"...but these would not be in line with your so-called British values so I would expect you to sell out here. Re-read my post...it's linked to the issue of honour. I don't think you will understand this though.... Again, you are in denial, pretending there are no issues with white people moving out of ethnic areas. They feel like they are being pushed out of all areas. How many Muslims are going around telling people to get out ? Or, is this just something spread by scaremongers ? No, they have been against Islam and Islamification long before the EDL were. I'm not going to keep repeating the same things. When I give you examples you go into denial and scream "petrified, sacred...". They didn't burn the koran.....they were going to. I have seen the video on youtube. This proves you are against a religion, something Sikhs have never been in history. Even after sacrificing his four sons Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes a letter to Aurangzeb (Zafarnama) and talks about how Aurangzeb is a deceiving swine who has disgraced his religion. They did NOT start bashing Islam. Shows you what sort of people the EDL is made up of they are and why Sikhs shouldn't support them. No Sikh in history has ever spoken like that about anyone else's religion. Typical chav language. There is ONE Muslim who goes to the EDL rallies. We need to do this as we have BIG problems. You are so afraid that you want to lick chav bottoms, begging them to fight Muslims for you. Have you become that desperate ? I am not saying we should join Muslims...YOU are saying we should join EDL, so who is the apologist, who is desperate, who is frightened ????? You contradict yourself by saying we should be strong, but you are so petrified that you want to join the EDL !!! I am hardly a Muslim apologist as I support our community taking action when required (eg. Shere Punjab).......but NOT by being used as pawns by the EDL. I am in favour of our community concentrating on ourselves and tackling our problems OURSELVES without being so scared that we have to join right-wing groups (by doing this we will end up being used and look stupid). Good for the Sikh guys. Again, not a reason to join the EDL. I'm not saying we should protect them. We shouldn't join the EDL.

Vahiguroo- manas ki jaat sabhae eko pehchaanbo

Lol yeah your right something went wrong, oh well everyone can kick my butt now at least then they will leave others alone :lol2:

You raise very valid points, but your post doesn't appear to be gupt.

Coconut represents giving of head and 5 coins is offering to Guru. Not only this but Baba Buddha Ji also put tilak on Guru Angad Dev Sahib Ji. Tradition continued to 11th guru and saroop with tilak on are still present. Akaal

I'm sure most of the people on here (apart from Dal Singh) are probably too young or weren't even born in 1984. I was 16 years old living in the UK then and I remember how Sikhs felt. There was a feeling that Khalistan is just around the corner but strangely enough there was very little support among the Sikh youth. I knew people my own age but many were just interested in the job situation and what college or university they were going to choose. The support was much more in the 30 and over age group. When I went to Punjab in 1988, I was under the impression that very few Sikhs supported Khalistan, this view was mainly because I tended to read the British press and watched the news on the BBC. In Punjab, I found that the Sikhs and even the Hindus in Punjab believed that Khalistan was inevitable. The support was big among the Sikhs and the Hindus just thought that anything they did would not have any effect on the final outcome. Fast forward 25 years and the situation is this. In the UK a majority of the Sikh youth in every age group seem to be in support of Khalistan. This was never the case in the late 80s. Even the young guys who come over from India in the last few years are very much in support of Khalistan. This I see as the effect of both the Sikh media (SC and Sangat Tv) as well as youtube and facebook. On facebook you see much more support from Sikhs in India. Not only in Punjab but Sikhs who live outside Punjab for whom you would think supporting Khalistan would be dangerous, also support Khalistan. The things which we never had in the 80s, was an effective media as well as a way to reach the Sikhs for Punjab is now available. I remember in the mid 80s Jagjeet Singh Chohan talking about setting up a satellite channel in order to broadcast programmes in support of Khalistan into India. That media now exists albeit in a different form. Youtube and Facebook have already shown how a movement can effectively counter the state propaganda and pass news and views without censorship on to a oppressed people. We have all seen how effective the Indian establishment has been in basically keeping the young Sikhs in Punjab ignorant of what happened in 1984. For all the millions that the govt had spent on buying the Badals and Tohras, the internet can negate all that if the Sikhs outside India are able to use social media to wake up the Sikh youth in India. This should be the next step that Khalistani organisations should be looking into. Sikh channel and Sangat Tv have been great at waking the Sikhs up in the West, but the Indian establishment will never allow them to directly broadcast into India.

Sure they were "born" into the same community as you and me Jonny Veerji but they are not Sikhs and the type of monster that kills 83 innocent human beings (regardless of if they were Sikh, Hindu or Muslim) is a sub-human degenerate of the lowest order. There's no such as a born Sikh and we need to emphasise that within the Panth. People have to live Sikhi by living their life truthfully according to the inherent insaaniat within it but instead this rakshas has taken the life of innocents so cruelly away. It's sad that he has to be kept alive to implicate bigger sharks but it's a necassary evil to swallow for the greater good.

my parents would be like, wadda aya vegan shegan diet walla. roti kha chup karke m chaped peni ni taan :lol2:

Guru Nanak Dev Ji's visit to Mecca. Despite rejecting the prevalent sub-continental philosophies surrounding him, Guru Nanak Dev undertook extensive travels in visiting the sites of pilgrimage often associated with his neighboring traditions. He visited Rome to view and dissect the Christian faith, he visited many an eminent Hindu site to dispel prevalent superstitions accepted as spirituality whilst he visited Mecca to dispel the myth of a singular supreme faith. It is his visit to Mecca which has become a matter of extensive debate between Islamic and Sikh scholars. The queries raised by the critics are simple yet confounding to the layman. What truly occurred at Mecca. Did Guru Nanak Dev Ji actually visit the said location? Did he adhere to its tenets as prescribed by Islam? Did he conform his belief in the prophet and his revelation? Or is there a more divergent version to the event. One which narrates the truth in it's entirety and forgoes all notions of the Guru claiming Islam to be his faith? Let us see. The Guru always purported himself to be neutral and entirely indifferent to both the doctrines of Islam and Hinduism. He did not give credence to either of the said faiths being rational in their spiritual perspective and/or capable of liberating an adherent. Islamic scholars have often justified their fraudulent views, regarding the Guru's acceptance of Islam, by quoting several untraceable and more often then not extremely biased and heavily fraudulent sources devoid of any historical logic. These sources, and their so called rationality, are subsequently refuted by the Guru's own writings contained within the Sikh canon and events which transpired in his life. The arguments concerning the Guru's acceptance of Islam are laid as follows: 1.) The Guru paid obeisance to Allah at a mosque in his residential region. Despite such an event transpiring its logic, and course, has been heavily perverted by these pseudo-scholars. The Guru did indeed visit the mosque but for a more divergent reason than is claimed by our neo-scholars. His dictum that the existence of both Hindus and Muslims, as per their stratification, was meaningless in the eyes of the creator and as a result there truly was no distinctive entity defined as Hinduism or even Islam. If he truly had been a Muslim than such a statement would have been apostasy and he himself would have decried and eschewed any notion of citing it. When his ultimatum reached the ears of the regional Islamic authorities they immediately descended on him. In order to make him prove his claim, and potentially see and accept the supremacy of Islam, he was challenged to attend the ritualistic Islamic prayer at the local mosque if he truly abided by his own paragon. The Guru accepted this challenge and traversed to the said mosque. On entering and performing ablution he patiently stood still whilst the prayer was reiterated around him. After the conclusion the authorities approached him and chastised him for his conduct. Why did he not bow and kneel as they had done? They queried from him. The Guru answered with an extensive conundrum, citing the fact that no one truly had their heart in the prayer and as such he was confused as to what to do. Thus he decided to remain standing. When he was heavily criticized due to his blasphemy he provided an extensive insight into the minds of the authorities themselves. They had been concerned with the commercialization and upkeep of their respective horses he delved. This revelation finally exposed the hypocrisy of the ritualistic prayers and their performers. This very event proves the Guru's rejection of Islamic tenets. As per Islam only God (Allah) and his prophet, Muhammad, are allowed insight into the minds of men ('Al-Ghaib'). Thus the Guru's rejection, avoidance of performing a ritualistic prayer and divine insight proves him to be a non-muslim. 2.) The Guru included the Bani of several eminent Islamic saints on his canon. As per history the Guru included the Bani of four "muslim" saints in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Despite the label of "muslim" these individuals did not adhere to fundamental Islamic notions (parallel to the Guru and his subsequent successors). Despite using Arabian terminology Sheik Farid gave great credence to the dictums of re-incarnation, a recognition of humanity and the recognition of the metaphysical concept of avatar-hood. Bhagat Sadhna preached the notion of universality and belief in a God who was above any Abrahamic or Hinduistic constraints. Bhagat Bikhan as a sufi purported the concept of a creator beyond any responsibility and one who was not bound via fundamental constraints. Bhai Mardanna, the Guru's perpetual companion and for the sake of a debate referred to as a saint, himself accepted Guru Nanak's rejection of Islamic doctrines and believed in the Guru's contrary-to-Islam doctrine. Thus these individuals cannot be truly considered as muslims as they discarded all notions of ethnic, national and religious labels. 3.) The Guru visited Mecca. This is the crucial crux of the matter at hand and as such will be here forth dissected. Mecca despite being an autonomous nerve-center of Islam has remained a matter of controversy since it's inception as a pillar of Islamic centrality. Its indigenous occupants, as per neutral sources, were forced to conform to Islamic ideals, accepted the ethos or were subsequently killed in the following conflicts which arose from the prophet Muhammad's teachings. Historians, including eminent Islamic personalities themselves, had cast doubt on the veracity of Mecca's uniqueness and whether it warrants acceptance in the already paradoxical notions laid down by the Koran. The revolutionary poet easily showcases the rational perspective of Mecca and its pilgrimage observances: 'I search for the way, but not the way to the Ka'ba and the temple. For I see in the former a troop of idolaters and in the latter a band of self-worshippers.' -Rumi. Rumi's statement is only a cognitive piece of the ever greater self-doubting Islamic engine. Despite purporting extreme monotheism, muslims still continue unabashed in their pilgrimage to Mecca which more often than not is seen as being contrary to Islam's monotheistic doctrine and essentially an acceptance of idolatry. Despite visiting Mecca there is no record of Guru Nanak Dev adhering to the following procedure whose fulfillment is a fundamental obligation of every devout Mohammadean: 1.) The First Five Days. The pilgrim arrives at a location a specific distance away from the sight of veneration. He consecrates himself and abstains from sexual inter-course and damaging any life. Other then the notion of sexual inter-course the Guru would have rejected the doctrine of damaging any life. There are numerous examples in his writings which emphasize on the hypocrisy of promoting oneself as a preserver of life, whereas rejecting the fact that as per the divine being's wish when one walks when crushes life underneath one's own feet! When one breathes one destroys life in the air, whatever one does one ends up causing destruction of life. As such damaging any life deliberately (excluding micro-organisms) can be considered as being anathema to religion, but that too depending on the context of the situation. The pilgrim after performing hygienic ablutions commences an idolatrous procedure which involves the kissing of the black stone. Again, despite idolatry being taboo in Islam this very practice contradicts its fundamental dictums. The Guru was dead-set against idolatry, and there is no record of him performing such a paradoxical and unethical practice. 'Had I not seen the Prophet kiss you, I would not kiss you myself.' -Caliph' Umar addressing the Black Stone. 2.) The Sixth to Tenth Day. Now begins what many individuals label as a bizzare series of actions (whose rational explanations lie in pre-Islamic pagan practices). The pilgrim leaves the enclosure where the black stone is retained and commences a climb up Mount As' Safa. He then sprints from Mount As' Safa to the pinnacle of the neighboring Al-Marwah seven times repeating various incantations and prayers. In the evening he returns to Mecca, and repeats the actions of the previous five days. On the seventh day he listens to particular orations at Mecca and on the subsequent eighth day commences a journey towards Mina. In Mina he performs the ritualistic Islamic practices and on the ninth day traverses to Mount Arafat where he performs 'Wuquf' or the right of standing. The pilgrim after listening to an oration on repentance than races to Muzdalifah where he joins into the sunset prayers. The tenth day is a day of sacrifice and celebration in the Islamic prism. Early in the morning the pilgrim leaves Muzdalifah and reaches the three pillars in Mina. Here he stones each pillar collectively in commemoration of Abraham's stoning of the Devil. He then sacrifices a goat to commemorate the success of his entire journey. A fundamental energy, provided by belief, is needed for the observance of such a ritualistic journey. Despite Guru Nanak Dev Ji reaching Mecca he did not adhere to any of the procedural steps required for the success of one's undertaking. He instead went to the central mosque and commenced a debate with the Islamic clergy after performing a miraculous action. Even the saints whose teachings were incorporated into the Sikh ethos rejected the pilgrimage to Mecca. Voluminous sources provide evidence of how the Gurus, the saints and other eminent personalities rejected the notion of the Meccan pilgrimage as being nothing more than a blot on secular monotheism and spirituality. Let us now examine the Meccan pilgrimage in it's entirety. Is it truly a Mohammadean attribute or is there a more subtle truth residing underneath the surface? Whereas an orthodox muslim would cry blasphemy at any mention of an exegesis of Mecca, a researcher will not deter from his course. Rumi and Caliph Umar were not the only Islamic personalities to doubt or subtly diverge from the authenticity of Mecca. They were followed by numerous individuals, among them being Al-Ma'rai. How could an unflinching and extremist monotheist like Muhammad give credence to a practice so paradoxical to the very ethos he claimed to be delivering from God?! The answer lies in his interactions with the pre-Islamic residents of Arabia. From adolescent he was influenced by an amalgamated myriad of Zorostrian, Pagan, Jewish and Christian formulas which he combined to revive what he called the true faith. It was a decisive catalyst of a multi-fabricated ideology which he passed of as being original. A majority of the Jewish populace played to the prophet's senses when they discarded Moses and Jesus and accepted him as the messenger of God in their stead. Thus the original Mecca was identified as Jerusalem by Muhammad. Yet when the Jews awakened to the deceit being executed right under their very noses, they immediately expelled Muhammad and his entourage. Conveniently at the onset of this expulsion the prophet received a divine commandment from God to revamp the original ethos and adopt Mecca as the new pilgrimage region. This divine version however is refuted by the prophet's intelligence, he was aware that by capturing Mecca he could re-write it's history and associations to formulate a new practice with roots in an ancient rite. In A.H. 6 the Muslims tried penetrating Mecca but were refused entry by the residents. In A.H. 7 they finally succeeded in their design, and it was then that the prophet performed the Meccan pilgrimage. 'In the tenth year A.H. Muhammad made his pilgrimage to Mecca, the old shrine of his forefathers, and every detail of superstitious observance which he fulfilled has become the norm in Islam. As Wellhausen says the result is that "we now have stations of cavalry journey without the history of the Passion." Pagan practices are explained away by inventing Moslem legends attributed to Bible characters, and the whole is an incomprehensible jumble of fictious lore."' -S. Zwemer. There is historic evidence that pre-Islamic Arabia was rife with idolatry. The Nomadic tribals were ardent worshippers of various deities encapsulated by various idols or just a singular and simplistic stone. Clement of Alexandria, ca. 190, recorded this particular fetish which was extensively rife in the pre-Islamic world. Mecca and it's inner precincts, the 'Kaaba', are not Islamic creations but were birthed in antiquity. Even the Persians allude to the cubical structure containing a black stone which was observed as being an emblem of Saturn. In the vicinity of Mecca are several other idols which have gained a superficial Muslim character by allegedly being associated with various biblical personalities. The black stone which is extensively revered by the Islamic galaxy is a meteorite and composed of iridium. It is highly doubtful whether it is truly the same stone which was gifted by Gabriel to Ishmael to construct the 'Kaaba.' The original stone was carried of as booty by the Qarmatians in the fourth century, and restored by them after a long period of time. It is highly doubtful whether they honestly retrieved and returned the original stone. Historians and archaeologists are of the mind that the stone was originally a component of a parent idol, Hubal. Wellhausen summarizes Hubal to be the original Allah, as the Meccans are known to have exclaimed 'Hurrah for Hubal' on defeating the prophet near Medina. The circumambulation of the sanctuary was another prevalent rite adopted from Pagan practices by the prophet. The seven circumbulations reflect the faith expressed by a devotee to his particular diety, these also involved the caressing and kissing of the said idol. The extensive emphasis on the evening prayers at Muzdalifah and Mina were introduced by the prophet to rebut his solar associations. The moon gifted to Guru Nanak at Mecca, which is attested to be an Islamic symbol, has it's roots in tribal theology which attested to the divinity of heavenly bodies. The excessive race between As Safa and Al-Marwa signify the muslim connection with pre-Islamic deities. Pagan devotees ran between both regions to kiss the idols of Isaf and Naila to acquire fortune. The practice of rejecting the devil via stoning is another paganistic belief. Originally it was done to acquire fortune as the seasons bypassed. One can easily summarize the pilgrimage to Mecca as being nothing more than a revamped, and rejuvenated pagan tradition given an Islamic coloring to veil it's paradoxical nature. Guru Nanak who extensively decried and criticized the hypocrisy of religions and their lies would not have attended a region of such infamy and deceit. Even Islamic extremists are stumped when asked to provide proof of the Guru ever having giving any semblance of credibility or even recognition to Mecca. His visit to the site does not classify him as an Islamist alone. His earlier ideology and concept rebut any false pretense that he was a Muslim and as such an ardent member of his creed. Yet the fundamental query, how did the Guru penetrate Mecca, still remains.The question is found in the annals of Islamic history itself. From circa 700 A.D. to 1803 A.D. Mecca was under the jurisdiction of the Ottomans. Subsequently the administration of the said region was granted to the Caliphs. It was only in the early 1900's, when the Wahabbi ideology became prevalent that it was restricted to non-muslims. Thus Guru Nanak Dev Ji (1469-1539 A.D.) easily entered the city without any constraints. 'People come from far corners of the land to throw pebbles (at Satan) and to kiss the (black stone). How strange are the things they say! Is all mankind becoming blind to the truth? O fools! Awake. The rites ye hold sacred are but a cheat contrived by men of old who lusted after wealth; and gained their lust. and died in baseness- their law is dust!' -Al-Ma'ari. http://tisarpanth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/06/the-meccan-chronicle.html

Well that's something to be very proud that your ancestors were Muslims as of course Bhai Mardana Ji was the very first Sikh in our Panth. In Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Sangat 50% of the original Gursikhs were born to Muslim parents. The more Sikhi was considered a threat by the Islamic Empire of the Mughals more and more difficulty was placed in the way of Muslims wishing to join the Sikh Panth. Not least the punishment for apostasy in Islam. As Prophet Muhammad decreed that whoever dared to reject Muhammad's personal ideology should be put to death. And thousands upon thousands of brave ex-Muslims that became Sikh were killed for leaving Islam. By the time of Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj's shaheedi the Islamic Empire of the Mughals was openly killing down Sikhs and apostates from Islam were often among the first Sikhs to be brutally killed and subsequently generation by generation the Sikh Panth began to be comprised more of converts from Hinduism then Islam. Sources say that sadly only 1 in 8 of the converts from Maharajah Ranjit Singh's time until 1947 were Muslim, while seven in eight were of Hindu ancestry. In that period between Maharajah Ranjit Singh's leadership of Punjab and 1947 the Muslim Jatts, Muslim Rajputs, Muslim Gujjars, Muslim Arain/Kambohs and Muslim Khatri's remained quite loyal to Islam and generally Muslims who became Sikh were from non-Saka tribal ancestries. Sadly since 1947 there have been even fewer converts to Sikhi from Islam the most famous of whom are probably Bhai Gurmohinder Singh Ji, Kuldip Manak and in the 1980's Shaheed Lakshman Singh Babbar. Given that there are more than 500million Muslims in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh the SGPC should spend a bit of money translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji into Shahmukhi Punjabi script, Urdu, and Bengali at the very least. Once Muslims realise that Sikhi is all about 100% devotion to Allah and none other (just not slaveowners like Muhammad) a small minority of certain open-minded people born to Muslim parents will naturally come towards Sikhi - particularly women as Sikhi offers 100% gender equality whereas Islam discriminates and oppresses women. We can't stick to the old routine of not criticising the personal life and failings of slaveowners such as Prophet Muhammad online for fear of offending Muslims if the consequence is that innocent people with true faith in one God are left trapped within Islam. We need to encourage them towards Sikhi as the more people helping the Panth achieve the objective of a just and peaceful society the closer it will come to reality. If people are racistly told that they must remain in the religions they are born into all we can expect is more genocides, more bombs killing innocent victims, more grooming targetting innocent children + more terrorism against the innocent.

Oh it is indeed 13mirch, and so is the common Sikh name of Karnail' (taken from the French for colonel). Its actually extremely interesting from a linguistics and history of language point of view. You see the substuting of the 'l' for an 'r' and the subsequently shifting back to it again does a nice job of summarizing the history of old French to middle French to modern French. Indeed not just French, this phenonema was common to the main 3 romamce languages of French, Spanish and Italian. Starting at the beginning then, old Italian carried on with the latin term of 'colonello' for the officer we know in English as colonel. The original latin tells us what that officer was and did as we recognise the word 'column'.....i.e he was a line commander. I don't know why but during the late 1500's, 1600's and 1700's the Spanish language experienced a shift of the letter 'l' in words and so colonell became 'coronel'. France followed suit and the word in French changed to 'coronaille' (pronounced Karnail) . During the 1600's the British started using the word for the first time and although they spelt it the old way i.e with the 'l' (colonel) it is noticable how the English pronounciation shows respect to the word in vogue among the French at that time i.e Kernal. Not long after, for modern French, the French actually go back to basics and shift back to colonelle. But, you can be sure that the French officers in the Khalsa army were using the 'r' in both general and colonel.....i.e generaille was pronounced 'Jarnail' and colonaille was prounounced 'Karnail'. Over the last 100 years 2 of the most common first names among Sikhs.

really mafi penj the pangti is kripa kaal Keri with a kakka

This is the best summary of 1984 I've heard for a long time.

Dedicated to my beloved vidhiya Guru: Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa (Bhindraa(n) jatha) In their remembrance, Dhan baba Thakur Singh Ji for all of my Sikh brothers and sisters - I love you ALL... Nitnem 6 written Santha.pdf

BUMP!!! Brilliant katha, would recommend to everyone to take out the hour or two that it lasts for and learn for yourself how parpakh Sant Jarnail Singh Jee really were/are. Can anyone shed any light on the book that Baba Ranjit Singh jee is referring to??? Was this the one that was banned?

this is the first katha I have heard from this baba, really good stuff

Since the Sikh Genocide has become a mainstream issue in the West amongst Sikhs this is now impacting the Sikhs in Punjab and Delhi. The Sadda Haq film and memorials both in Punjab and Delhi are getting people talking about the killings. People are less scared now, Kuljinder Singh Sidhu with his film has shown people in the Punjab are concerned about what happened. More people will come out and expose what happened and it will come out through individuals, most India based Sikh organisations, jathebandhis, babas and Sants are controlled directly or indirectly by the government so that's why you do not see them doing much in this area.

There has never been a serious study done to determine how many Muslims had converted to Sikhism. After the victory of Banda Singh Bahadur many Muslims cast their lot in with the Sikhs seeing this as their only means of survival or wanting to become one with the new power that was replacing the Mughals. It is tempting to wonder what the Punjab would have been like today had Banda Singh Bahadur succeeded in replacing the Mughal rule permanently. The Muslim Jat tribes beyond Lahore had only been forcibly converted during the time of Aurangzeb a few decades before, so they might have made common cause with the Sikhs in Western Punjab. The Sikh rule might have taken the form of a Reconquista like the Christians did in Spain. The only work I have come across that tried to enumerate how many Sikhs were from a Muslim background was a survey carried out by a British official in Lahore in 1846-47. From memory he listed Hindu Sikhs and Muslim Sikhs ie Sikhs from a Hindu background and Sikhs from a Muslim background. I think the figures were 10 % for Muslim Sikhs and 90% for Hindu Sikhs. I will try and see if I can get hold of the exact figures and post them here.

Dhariwal are called Dhaliwal in Jalandhar. They are the same tribe and referred to as Dhariwal almost every place in Punjab other than in Jalandhar, The census considered them to be the same tribe and hence to stop confusion referred to them as Dhariwal. The census tables were collated to give an overall picture of the strength of each got and not to go into the nuances of each got which was left for the gazetteer publications and for the census report The migration of many Jat tribes from Majha to Malwa, Doaba and Gujranwala occurred much earlier than the Misl period. Although the Misldars from Majha would still have contacts with their tribe that had migrated to outside of Majha previously and use the contacts to get men and supplies to supplement their forces in any attack in areas outside of Majha. In many cases the Misldars especially in places like Gujranwala would invade from Majha in order to specifically assist their own gots in their struggle with the Muslim tribes of the region. I still see that you do not address the points raised before. Prior to 1911 was no way that a Jat of Sikh appearance even if he gave his religion as Hindu would be listed as a Hindu. he would be listed as a Sikh. There was a suggestion that the Hindu Jats may have been monas. There was prior to 1947 really no such thing as a mona Sikh Jat. In the Sikh Jat villages the kids might have had cut hair but as they got older they would become Keshdhari,The few adult mona Jat Sikhs were people such as returnees from Canada or people in government service like Mahinder S Randhawa who was a District Commissioner of Delhi in 1947 and later did sterling work rehabilitating the Sikh refugees in Punjab after 1947. In Malwa the only mona Jats were the udasis sadhs in their deras.

The old Indian saying "paap da ghada bhar gya" comes to mind.

Yes this policeman's statements should be presented to western human rights organisations. More policemen may come out and then it will be difficult for them to control the truth There has been a change in the Sikh community in the West on 1984 issues since the Sikh media started up , it could happen in the Punjab also.

Each community has it's traitors. Criminals who cannot make it in normal society so they willingly become the tools of others to oppress their own people. No doubt had Hitler successfully invaded England, he could have relied on thousands of English men and women to act as collaborators and to oppress their own people. All the occupied countries had this situation, so you can understand the mentality of such people if you consider Punjab to be an occupied land. What needs to happen if we really want to being greater understanding of what the Sikhs suffered to the wider western audience is to start to take affidavits from the people who lost sons to fake encounters. There must be hundreds of such people in Canada, USA and UK. Then use the laws already available in the free west to track down the lower rung killers. Those haram.zadas like that police officer who killed hundreds and then afterwards married their sons and daughters in USA and Canada and then joined them by being sponsored into that country. These haram.zadas are now living in retirement enjoying the fruits of a free society whilst they killed hundreds who also wanted freedom. If organisations like Sikhs for Justice can get a few convictions in the West, the floodgates will open and these haram.zadas will be singing like canaries implicating murderers like Gill and Saini.

We all knew this, but how these people sleep at night is beyond me, but i agree he should be encouraged to give all the info he can, but it will fall on deaf ears thats the question, and who is going to do anything not the indian Government / Badal thats for sure. We can but bring this to the attention of the world. Sickening thing is these guys are from sikh background killing there own, we have the biggest fools in our own community especially in the punjab :sad2:.

The Sikhs that he killed were probably all young Sikh boys. Imagine the pain their mothers and fathers must have gone through knowing their young son is no more. The worst part it, these Punjab police men doing the dirty work were belonging to Sikh community themselves. But greed for money was so strong in them they didn't once think what a huge sin they are committing for a few ruppees.

isingh1699, can you please NOT use red color and use the regular unbold black? All you need to do is quote a portion of another poster's message and then post your own. You don't have to include your own post within the quotes. Let me know if you don't know how to do it.

This Policeman should be encouraged to tell all about the Genocide of Sikhs. The shocking thing is that a low level Policeman can kill 83 Sikhs , multiply that out with the thousands of policeman involved and figures of 250,000 Sikhs murdered seem quite plausible. He should be encouraged to spill the beans on his senior officers KP GIll, Saini and the political people involve from the Congress and some Akalis. The Sada Haq film and the general awareness of the Genocide is bringing people to talk about what happened.

There are many sad parts to this whole story, but one of the most saddest parts that stood out to me is the fact that even this man's truth isn't clean and free. His truth has many strings attached to it and is covered with corruption, anger, revenge and greed. The only reason he came out with this truth is to vent his frustrations and to get back at all of his higher-ups who didn't give him the promotions which he was promised in return for conducting all of those fake encounters. After all of these years he probably didn't feel bad about anything and was probably drooling and dreaming about all of the promotions that he would get sooner or later. Then after 24 years of working with the Punjab Police, he realizes that he isn't getting any more promotions and didn't reach nearly as high-up as he dreamed, so now he comes out with the truth. To me, that's one of the saddest parts of this whole thing. That the truth isn't even the truth anymore. It has corruption, greed and strings attached to it. If he got (close to) all of the promotions he wanted, he probably would never have came out with this confession. Maybe this is why Guru Sahib wrote the following, in order to combat such types of 'truth tellers': Sachoh Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar |5| Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5|| Because even if someone tells the truth, it is still nothing compared to truthful living. A prime example is the case we have here in this topic. Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Jeeo Maharaj!!!

Again...I can't make sense of what you want to say? Should he write in Arabic or your Pakistan's elite language of Urdu so you understand better? How come hindus are 20-100 times stronger? lol.. The odds at Chamkaur Sahib against Muslims were greater than those in 1984 Islam and Sikhism never came across in any strategic conflict....and you should thank Allah for that... Oh? Why? Because Islam would attempt to eradicate Sikhs off the face of the Earth the way the Islam tried to do so many times before? Muslims couldn’t manage it in 1947 despite the horrific losses we suffered, so what makes you think you’ll destroy the Sikh Panth in the future? You will never achieve your dream! Otherwise, who knows, there would not have been a 'Sikh' sangat forum on internet... We are truly grateful to cowardly Hindu’s that converted to Islam because of Aurangzeb letting us survive!?!? LOL Why would I imply that Sikhs are weak? There is nothing to "imply" but just facts. You can guys can live in your own fantasize world. In real world, Sikhs are a non-existent entity in global historical narrative. hahahaha ... Oh and Punjabi Muslims greatly influence the world by being the base of global terror, huh? LOL Yeah "secretly" but yet you know it...lol.. I suppose you conveniently forgot that the punishment Prophet Muhammad ordered for leaving the cult of Islam is death. Islam is spreading Mashallah and it has been for last 14th centuries..and will continue to do so by Allah's will... How great is that? Terrorism, grooming, sex slaves, love jihad conversions, domestic violence against women all increase in tandem with the spread of the cult throughout the world. - More Muslims died during partition than Sikhs/Hindus combined. False lie above but yeah its true that when the Sikhs responded to Islamic ethnic cleansing being attempted in Doaba and Majha, the Sikhs fought back despite the Muslims being more numerous. It still doesn’t change the fact that Punjabi Muslims killed off 25% of the Sikh population in Pakistan in 1947. Would you be happy if 25% of Pakistani’s were killed off by jihadi’s against you like American drones? - Most Sikhs migrated to E. Punjab and left Pakistan after partition by their own will... Yes 75% of Sikhs in Pakistan left due to the 25% of Sikhs there being brutally killed by Pakistan. Imagine if 25% of Punjabi Muslims were killed off today by American drones. Would u scramble to leave Pakistan yourself then? Then why do you like the very Muslims that enslaved your ancestors to fight against your own people in 1947? You said how Muslims somehow 'lost' to Hindus. Answer my question about how do you think am I on the 'losing side' by being a Muslim? You’ve already answered by avoiding a reply to the fact that at age 54 Muhammad had sex with a 9year old child called Aisha. You can’t defend that. You don’t have the cajones to condemn it. Clearly you’re on the losing side! You believe in Islam because your Hindu ancestors were forced to believe in it by the power of the sword. Go worship your ten gurus. Sikhs worship none other than one God alone. It’s Muslims who worship Muhammad and who are actually Muhammadans. Sharia Law proves that. Muhammad practised slavery+pedophilia despite both being immoral. Yeah..just like they have 'stopped' Islam for past 1400 years...oh wait...LOL! That was when people were illiterate. Do you think educated Muslims will tolerate pedophilia and sex slavery as glorified by Muhammad and the Quran? Somehow I don’t think so! No. Islam has been growing since the day it was born Mashallah.. and it will continue to grow Inshallah...while losers like you will keep on crying... If you don’t condemn a 54 year old man for having sex with a 9year old child called Aisha, what makes you think that your children won’t be brave enough to reject that kind of immorality? And I don't go around insulting my fellow punjabis' faith and mocking them. Of course you do. You insult Sikhi all the time but you do it with a sense of Muslim supremacy whilst pretending to be a peaceful dawah jihadist on the surface lol. Who told you that I take Islam zealously? Ok we all feel better now. At least we now know you don’t even truly believe in a pedophile and slaveowner as much as it seemed. Islam. Spread by sword? Yes. Primarily? No. Islam was overwhelmingly spread by the sword So what if Muslims are militarily weaker? Military conquests for spreading one faith are history now... How sad that is for Islam, as it was easier to force subjugated peoples like your ancestors into Islam in old times. Indians had no chance against Pakistan Really? Tell everyone more about this! Indians always faced humiliation when faced Pakistanis on Western Front Do tell us non-Indians how Pakistanis humiliated another country when they lost all those wars? But I do agree, Sikhs saved india Sikhs believe in one God and fighting for humanity. Muslims believe in Muhammad and fighting for to reach paradise where 72 light skinned virgins and young boys of perpetual freshness await. Big difference. But back to the OP, why exactly is it that you refuse to condemn 54 year old men who have sex with 9year old little girls as being evil? Please don’t run away from condemning such an evil and immoral act.

I think you might have got your information from that jatt website which makes all sorts of claims without presenting any evidence. There is no doubt that Punjab having been the gateway to India, it saw more than its fair share of invasions and migrations. But these migrations would have been from Central Asia and not from Syria and Palestine.

When i travel, i always choose/reserved vegan meal instead of hindu meal - a better way to get real vegetarian food on air. I would go vegan but i can't leave milk.. because some of my special items derived from milk such as sweet guru sahib jee di degh.

No, free speech should cover EVERY TOPIC. If someone wants to criticize Sikhism they should be ALLOWED to and we shouldn't have a problem with it. If an ideology can't stand up to debate then it's not worth following. Sikhism CAN STAND UP to any debate, so we have nothing to fear. I mean just look at Guru Gobind's 52 Hukams, It's so incredibly righteous IT HURTS. You CAN'T pick holes in the strength of that moral code it's impossible. Modern day values can't even compare to how ridiculously heavenly you're supposed to be in Sikhism . You're missing the point...there is a difference between disagreeing and attempting to insult a religion to cause offence. That was the issue with us with the Narakdharees in 1978; they were slandering the Gurus. Atheists write books and have conferences on why they believe there is no God; no-one has a problem with it. That is having an opinion; deliberately taking the mick is different. But WHO is denigrating Sikhism anyway? The white man? Hardly! I've never heard/read about a white person saying anything but positive things about Sikhs, talking about how we're all warriors and hard working, really fun people to hang around with and never cause any trouble. I don't see ANY Sikhs disagreeing with this either . You CAN'T pick and choose what opinions you're willing to allow.Again, you're missing the point. They're not doing it yet, but we have seen the reaction when we raise issues (the Be-Izatee play, mixed marriages in Gurdwaras).........the majority of the British public have been against us. They want the right to do insult any religion; this will include ours and is why we should oppose it. The play Behzti was WRITTEN BY A SIKH don't forget. Someone in our VERY OWN community wanted to talk about various issues we face and we have to allow that. The only real problem was she set the play in a Gurdwara without any actual given reason for it, and Sikhs were RIGHT TO PEACEFULLY PROTEST about it and not support it. You are also free to call the author a traitor, but violence is out of the question. The violating of the Gurdwara for cheap publicity by Gurpreet Bhatti was much worse. A Sikh ?.....I think she is more westernised and living by western values than Sikh values. The majority of the British public were with her. We do not face the issues she showed in her play; that was just a pathetic attempt to cause controversy and make her name. As for Southall. A white person may not want to LIVE there, but would they ever say they feel totally unwelcome? I don't think so. Tommy Robinson has gone on record saying that even though Southall is basically a Sikh town, it's just as friendly as a white area. Why would white people who have been living in an area for generations move out ? It's not a decision that is taken lightly. Tommy Robinson has already admitted that classic EDL chants like 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH' are probably not the best way to win support, but fact of the matter is Islamists have said and done far worse. Free speech isn't always pretty and nobody said it was, but it is the best way to run the world. The people (no matter who/what they are) in the EDL are ANGRY at the injustice taking place in England, and how their country and future is changing for the worse. PROTESTING with the EDL is the best possible outlet for that anger, far better than random people turning to riots and blind violence like Anders Breivik did in Norway. The EDL chants are directed against a religion......against ALL Muslims. It shows that this goes beyond just being against Islamists and is why Sikhs should have nothing to do with it. Again, it is inaction by the government that they haven't arrested Islamists making provocative chants. I disagree, Halal SHOULD be banned. Muslims had their chance to make it work and they clearly failed us all. Halal should CONTINUE to be banned until they can prove beyond doubt that it will never infringe on the rights of non-Muslims in Britain (95% of the country) ever again. As a Sikh I will FOREVER be appalled by Halal. As a British person I will FOREVER be appalled by Halal. Halal goes against British views on Animal Welfare, so the time when Halal will be truly acceptable is probably never. The reason people are being force-fed Halal is not because of Muslims, it is because of retailers who put profit and business efficiency before everything else. Separating Halal and non-Halal is time consuming for them, it's easier to just have Halal. The government needs to make them separate the two and give people the right NOT to eat Halal. The whole meat industry is cruel and exploits animals living in horrible, cramped conditions before killing them. The 'Azaan', the Muslim call to prayer should ALSO be banned. Just like it was banned in the Sikh Empire. WHY should anyone have to hear for miles around AND in their homes, some guy on a loudspeaker chant about how amazing Islam and Muhammad is? How much you suck for being an unbeliever? WHAT would happen if a Gurdwara started using loudspeakers to blast to the world how amazing the Guru's, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Waheguru are? Would Muslims appreciate that? Would anyone actually WANT that? WHAT would happen if someone was to use loudspeakers at their house and blast to the world how much better they are than everyone else? They'd be arrested . If this is happening then it needs to stop. "NOW is the time for the country to decide. Do we want Britain-istan. Or do we want Great Britain? YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH. We either have to give Muslims everything they want, or 'limit' them by giving them the SAME rights as the other 95% of this country. There is no halfway point." Yes, everyone should have the same rights under the law.

http://www.sikhsangeet.com/albumid447-Guriqbal-Singh-(Gurdwara-Mata-Kaulan-Amritsar-Wale)-Sri-Sukhmani-Sahib-Ji-Diyan-Visheshtaian.html Waheguru ji, good to see you getting back on track, in addition to the above, listen to Sukhmani Saib diyan visheshtayian by Bhai Guriqbal Singh ji Mata Kaulawale.. many inspiring real stories from people like us, whoc got out of trouble with Faith in Guru sahib and Gurbani.....lots of simran and stories, beautifully explained by Bhai sahib.

Can i eat my own skin? would that consider to be raw vegan since body is made of earth element and vegetables are part of earth element as well... hehe

OP Read and listen to Chotte sahibzaadeaan's shaheedi saka,,,,,,,again and again so when wrong feelings come to your mind....your innerself will feel ashamed automatically........and think what you are doing...and do ardas to get rid of these feelings..... Start reading Guru's ji's jeewan and then mahapurkh's jeewans......... best source to connect with Guru ji,,,,,,,

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa !! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh !! when ever i get these thoughts , i remember i am wearing a kachera and what it stands for . and those thoughts stop immediately

yaar ikk te boyfriendaan ne matt maari pei janta di

basically, in their immense daya, mahapurkh pushed back the terrible events that were to unfold. baba thakur singh ji bhindrenvale explained it to me this way: the world has gone on too dark a path and there is no way to avoid what is to come, this is the karam of the world for turning away from god, but the further back it gets pushed the more souls get saved from hell and the less terrible the oncoming punishment has to be (as some of the karam is paid off through the world's increased ardassan etc). this is the job of the sants, to bring the duniya into waheguru's godh and away from their manmukh natures. by pushing the event in question back, baba nand singh ji was following his own nature of saving he kaljugi jeevs.

How lucky are we to receive prashaadh from shree guroo granth saahib jee mahaaraaj!