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Thanks rochak veer ji and Pakhandebunga ji.You guyz backed up ur points with great gurbani proofs.

I personally think the story is true as I heard this story in Gurudwaras from kathawachaks many many times.I didn't listen it in Hindu Mandirs or from learned hindus, so there is a very small chance that "hindus polluted the real story for their own means".

Also, rochak veer ji gave a very very solid proof by stating bhai gurdass ji vaar explaining the complete story...which can't be negated.Also the last line:

innocence like that of Dhanna makes the sight of the Lord available
A similar line is also available in SGGS ji :
page 1192 SGGS ji:

Dhanna served the Lord, with the innocence of a child.

Dhannai sayvi-aa baal buDh.

So there is a little chance that the story is not true.It now depends upon us like what message we take frm the whole thing.And that was the reason I asked sangat abt this thing.

I hope I didn't offend anybdy.

I know my post didn't serve any purpose but still this is what i think.

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Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Rochak Malang Ji,

You sound like a well trained RSS agent  ....

Oh my God....u r so misinformed.......I feel sorry for u gharghajsingh.Pakhandeebunga's every arguments is well refuted by pheena ji and Rochak veer.If Pakhandeebunga has something to say then he shud come out and prove his argument.Please stop this nonsense here.We are not here for name calling for no reason.

We all now abt Rochak......ur claims hold ZERO value here.

Bhul Chuk Maff.

If u really have something to say regarding the original post u r most welcom.

THNX

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Rochak Malang Ji,

You sound like a well trained RSS agent :T: hit.gif

Give it up Rochak, you are living in a dream world.

hit.gif Rochak Malang hit.gif

gharghajsingh ji:

you are so grossly misinformed :umm: about our veer Rochak Malang ji.

i suggest u look at some of his posts and check out his knowledge before u make a stupid judgement like that. :D

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Balwinder Singh Ji, it wasn't like there was a competition here. I presented what I know and others presented what they know. We all learned something and I think that is the point of having this discussion board. Whatever I said I gave quotes from Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Nanak Ji. My point was that idol worship with or without love is fruitless unless rochak or anyone else can provide me with a quote from Gurbani saying that idol worship with true love and devotion is OKAY to do and it will get you there. As far as I know Gurbani does not say idol worship without true love and devotion is fruitless. It says overall idol worship is fruitless no matter how you do it. Of course true love and devotion is something we all need to get there but that only comes after we take Amrit and do Naam Simran. All Shabads in Gurbani prove that only Bhagtee will get you there not idol worship. If idol worship with true love and devotion gets you there then it must be stated in Gurbani somewhere so someone please give me quotes.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji called idol worshippers "animals" and again Guru Ji did not say those people are animals because they don't worship idols with true love and devotion. Guru Ji said those people are just blind and do not see the truth. Bhagat Dhanna Ji doing idol worship fits into this category IF he ever did it but that is not what Gurbani says.

Many kathavachaks say this story, well most of them also say Bhagat Fareed Ji did bhagtee for 36 years living in jungles or hanging upside down in wells. Most of the historians who wrote Sikh history misrepresented Sikhism in one way or another. one tried to prove it is a sect of hinduism anothe

r said it is just an offshoot of islam and hinduism both. Very few historians actually wrote something true about sikhism. Most of the kathavachaks in Sikhism did not receive education from any religious schools. please don't start attacking me but it is a fact. How many people really go to Gurmat Sangeet Schools to learn Kirtan. Many Ragis in Darbar Sahib never went to any music school. Most of the kathavackas just tell you the same stories again and again. They never do any research. I have heard so many kathavackahs saying that Bhai Gurdas Ji is reincarnation of Ganesha and Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji was reincarnation of Bhai Gurdas Ji because Ganesha wrote vedas continuously (according to hinduism). Ganesha is considered a great writer in hinduism and Bhai Gurdas Ji did such a great seva of writing Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This story is false as you all know but I have seen this written in many history books and heard this from many kathavackas in Gurdwaras. Even so called educated people don't understand the true meaning of Gurbani. For example, read the following translation.

Fareed, not even a drop of blood would issue forth, if someone cut my body. Those bodies which are imbued with the Lord - those bodies contain no blood. ||51|| (Page 1380)

So according to this great Gursikhs like Baba Deep Singh Ji, Bhai Mati Das Ji and Bhai Taru Singh Ji and many others contained no blood in their bodies because their bodies were imbued with Lord. Is that right? A person who translated this probably has some PhD and look how he totally gave the wrong meaning of Gurbani. My point for writing all this is that those kathavackas who went to no school at all are wrong. And this example also shows that even educated people make mistakes. A very educated Sikh called Sant Hardev Singh Ji Loolon Wale went to many scholars to study Sikhism. Even he said in Gurdwara that Bhai Jaitaa Ji cut off his father's head and replaced it with Guru tegh bahadur Ji's head which he then took to A

nandpur Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. When I asked him for proof he said it was written in Gur Partap Sooraj Parkash and yes it is written there but according to Gurmat it is not true. Sant Kartar Singh Ji Bhindranwale did katha on this subject and cleared all the doubts. I have both kathas in case anyone wants to listen. When I told Sant Hardev Singh Ji his so called chelas got mad and Sant Ji told me to leave because he wanted to eat langar. he did not justify anything. My point is just because it is written in some book does not make it true and just because some kathavackhak says it does not make it true. They can only be true if they support it with Gurbani. We have to look at what Gurbani says and what it really means.

Those kathavachaks are wrong unless they can clearly show that Gurbani does accept idol worship with true love and devotion and in that case I would be wrong. About the prayer of Bhagat Dhanna Ji: well, Bhagat Ji had conversation with God after he had darshan and Bhagat Ji refused to do Bhagtee without any food and water "Bhookhay Bhagat na Keejay" So Waheguru Ji asked what Bhagat Ji wanted and Bhagat Ji said the prayer. This actually teaches us a lesson that Bhagtee gets you all those things. truely you wouldn't think after having darshan Bhagat Ji wished for all those things. Bhagat Ji said the prayer after he had darshan. regarding Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaar, Bhai Sahib Ji is right 100% that only true love and devotion and innocence gets us there but that love does not come without Naam Simran. or does it? tell me if it does. Bhai Sahib says it is love and devotion of Naam Simran that gets you there not idol worship. I am saying this again and again Show me one Shabad from Gurbani that says something else. Gurbani says:

"Naam Dayv, Jai Dayv, Kabeer, Trilochan and Ravi Daas the low-caste leather-worker,

blessed Dhanna and Sain; all those who joined the humble Saadh Sangat, met the Merciful Lord. ||7||" Page (835)

Sangat got Bhgat Ji darshan a

s this Shabad clearly states.

"Naam Dayv's mind was absorbed into God, Gobind, Gobind, Gobind.

The calico-printer, worth half a shell, became worth millions. ||1||Pause||

Abandoning weaving and stretching thread, Kabeer enshrined love for the Lord's lotus feet.

A weaver from a lowly family, he became an ocean of excellence. ||1||

Ravi Daas, who used to carry dead cows every day, renounced the world of Maya.

He became famous in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, and obtained the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan. ||2||

Sain, the barber, the village drudge, became famous in each and every house.

The Supreme Lord God dwelled in his heart, and he was counted among the devotees. ||3||

Hearing this, Dhanna the Jaat applied himself to devotional worship.

The Lord of the Universe met him personally; Dhanna was so very blessed. ||4||2||"

This shabad clearly states that Bhagat Ji looked at other Bhagats and how they got the Muktee. Bhagat Dhanna Ji did the same thing. if other bhagats did not do any idol worship then why would Bhagat Dhanna Ji go on do something different when he had all the examples in front of him. Bhai Gurdas Ji narrated the story as told by majority of the people but Bhai Sahib Ji says it was the love of God that got him darshan and again love of God only comes with naam Simran. Bhai Sahib Ji means that this is the story that people believe in and this is what they think but the truth is what the last lines say. Naam Simran brings love which brings darshan. Guru Arjan Dev Ji collected the Bani of other Bhagats that only talks about worship of One Waheguru. None else. Guru Ji rejected the Bani of many bhagats who brought their banis to Guru Ji. For example, two Bhagats came from Lahore and they were rejected. Guru Ji did not take Bani of someone that supports idol worship and conflicts with rest of the Gurbani and include

it in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

People misinterpret Gurbani, misrepresent it. If you read the book "Hum Hindu Nahin" you will see how hindus have tried to show Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism by using Gurbani. Hindus misunderstood the real meanings and just took the meanings of the words just like the example I have given you above. The person who translated Gurbani took the meanings of the words but failed to realize the deeper meaning. Most of the people do not know the real meaning of "Manas Ki Jaat Sabhay Eaikay Pehchaanbo". if you do then great for you. I am not saying I know Gurbani or I am the right one. I learned from people and learn everyday. I make mistakes and whatever I wrote could be wrong. If I am please correct me so I can learn and so can the others. If I offended anyone please forgive me. I meant no attacks on anyone. You believe in whatever you want but if you say idol worship is right then please give me quotes from Gurbani. So I can learn the truth. Taking this argument further would be waste of time. Again, I apologize if I unintentionally offended anyone or hurt anyone.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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