Massive fight breaks out at Sikh temple boxing match

[JSinghnz]

19 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

You hit on an important thing there. I think we venerate and (understandably) idolise and even glamourise our ancestors and their achievements so much that we lose sight of the reality of them and their times, ignoring things that go against our whitewashed perception. When you read real, raw Sikh history from uninfluenced Sikh sources, like Bhangu's Panth Prakash, you'll see that he had no problem confronting it all - good, bad and ugly. He was a realist who explore the truth, not create a fairy tale whitewashed version of events. Read vol 2 of the PP translation and see for yourself what our ancestors got up to. 

Have you learnt anything from their mistakes and improve the present lot?

 

[Ranjeet01]

43 minutes ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I really doubt that, Sikhs of olden days were humans too, im sure they had more than a couple skirmishes between themselves. Misls are also a good example, constant infighting. 

You've completely misunderstood what I was saying.

The Sikhs of Old would have seen what these guys were doing and would have considered it as handbags at 10 paces.

[dallysingh101]

18 minutes ago, JSinghnz said:

Have you learnt anything from their mistakes and improve the present lot?

 

The thing to learn from my perspective is that when our ancestors conducted a guerilla war against the state, it was not a romanticised experience. It was about as grim as it could get, and they persevered and won. Also, religion was not the sole factor or only motivating force for many Sikhs of the past - they also pursued political and economic uplift and independence. I think it is safe to say that most of the core of the original Khalsa around dasmesh pita himself, were mainly motivated by faith and that is why many didn't pursue land ownership or wealth and status, they actually achieved shaheedi. Dharam yudh was the central thing for them. 

Given the warfare norms of time, our lot acted exemplarily, which we know is the direct result of dasmesh pita's rigidity with ethical behaviour amongst his fauj. But as Bhangu shows with his recording of events, a generation or so later, in the heat of war and the the face of extreme barbarism, our lot lost it occasionally too. 

They didn't make any mistakes in my opinion, they just acted how humans might under those very unique and extreme conditions. Overall, they acted better than most people would given the circs. Again, that was our Guru's direct influence. 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

The thing to learn from my perspective is that when our ancestors conducted a guerilla war against the state, it was not a romanticised experience. It was about as grim as it could get, and they persevered and won. Also, religion was not the sole factor or only motivating force for many Sikhs of the past - they also pursued political and economic uplift and independence. I think it is safe to say that most of the core of the original Khalsa around dasmesh pita himself, were mainly motivated by faith and that is why many didn't pursue land ownership or wealth and status, they actually achieved shaheedi. Dharam yudh was the central thing for them. 

Given the warfare norms of time, our lot acted exemplarily, which we know is the direct result of dasmesh pita's rigidity with ethical behaviour amongst his fauj. But as Bhangu shows with his recording of events, a generation or so later, in the heat of war and the the face of extreme barbarism, our lot lost it occasionally too. 

They didn't make any mistakes in my opinion, they just acted how humans might under those very unique and extreme conditions. Overall, they acted better than most people would given the circs. Again, that was our Guru's direct influence. 

As a person who struggled to reconcial our written history with sikh ethos, this is the attitude i had to adopt as well. 

Thank you for putting it into words. 

We have to stop denying historical facts n accept the faults and greatness of our ancestors. Also have to stop idolizing em n stop trying to emulate the past: wat with bhang n meat being reintroduced into the panth on the basis of these granths. Gatka teams, whose martial arts skills n battle ready skills r already questionable, n have no useful skills r starting to use marijuana. They gonna become even more useless religious amlis. 

[dallysingh101]

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wat with bhang n meat being reintroduced into the panth on the basis of these granths. 

I don't think these things were reintroduced into the panth because of these granths. I think these granths just exposed the norms of our ancestors. We are ones with the problems with it, our ancestors thought differently. They were more open minded. 

[Berserk]

21 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't think these things were reintroduced into the panth because of these granths. I think these granths just exposed the norms of our ancestors. We are ones with the problems with it, our ancestors thought differently. They were more open minded. 

Because rather than going above Maya, you'd rather bury yourself deeper into the pit of Maya. Good luck. 

[dallysingh101]

5 minutes ago, Berserk said:

Because rather than going above Maya, you'd rather bury yourself deeper into the pit of Maya. Good luck. 

Nah, I just think our ancestors were fine. They achieved a lot more than most of us ever will. Understanding their attitudes and behaviours can only be advantageous for us. They shaped the world around them and achieved sovereignty against all odds - all without being narrow minded. 

 

[Jonny101]

58 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't think these things were reintroduced into the panth because of these granths. I think these granths just exposed the norms of our ancestors. We are ones with the problems with it, our ancestors thought differently. They were more open minded. 

Regarding Bhang and meat. Those granths were written down nearly 150 years after Guru Gobind Singh jee. So they reflect the social norms of Sikhs 150 years after Guru Sahib in which time a lot of manmat had crept in much like how it is socially acceptable in Punjab for Amritdharis today to drink alcohol, take bribes, snitch on each other to the police etc. 

 

What is Gurmat and what isnt should be based only upon the touchstone/ਕਸਵੱਟੀ of Guru Granth Sahib jee. And only those puratan sources should be relied on as athentic which are in line with Guru Granth Sahib ji.  Otherwise consumption of intoxicants should be seen as reflective of the social norms of the time period in which the specific granth was written in.

[dallysingh101]

14 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

Regarding Bhang and meat. Those granths were written down nearly 150 years after Guru Gobind Singh jee. So they reflect the social norms of Sikhs 150 years after Guru Sahib in which time a lot of manmat had crept in much like how it is socially acceptable in Punjab for Amritdharis today to drink alcohol, take bribes, snitch on each other to the police etc. 

 

What is Gurmat and what isnt should be based only upon the touchstone/ਕਸਵੱਟੀ of Guru Granth Sahib jee. And only those puratan sources should be relied on as athentic which are in line with Guru Granth Sahib ji.  Otherwise consumption of intoxicants should be seen as reflective of the social norms of the time period in which the specific granth was written in.

If that's the case, we've got reference to opium taking in Sainapati's Gursobha which is contemporary to dasmesh pita (he was a darbar kavi). I'm interested in history and what we can learn from it. I don't want to hammer history to today's understanding. Now just because I read this it doesn't mean I'm going to take smack or think it is a good idea for apnay to become heroin junkies. You yourself should also consider the possibility that our ancestors had different attitudes to these things than we do today. Just because they took bhang and opium, doesn't mean they were doing it recreationally. They probably had other reasons that we don't understand in today's context.

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like how it is socially acceptable in Punjab for Amritdharis today to drink alcohol,

 

I didn't know this happens.

[Akalifauj]

Gursikhs did not take drugs like opium.  They strictly followed Gurbani.  People like Ram Rai, who misquoted Gurbani to please a Muslim king, may have taken drugs for recreational use but this was never accepted by the Guru. These so called history books are not fully accepted by Gursikhs of today and the past.  Damdami taksal outrightly rejects the idea goats heads were cut in place of the Punj Pyare heads by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji.  Yet these wannabe historians will swear and slander anyone who rejects the goat story.  These guys are weak minded and have never felt the Shakti of Sikhi so they go out to bad mouth the Gursikhs and the Gurus.  But these sanatan cult followers fully accept the devta and Devi's had supernatural powers and raise them to the status of true Guru.