First language of the Guru's

[Premi5]

I think all the Guru's (1-9) were born in Punjab and their first language was Punjabi. Is this true for Guru Gobind Singh who was born in Patna?

Did the Gurus speak with Sikhs from different plAces in their own language or mainly Punjabi?

 

 

[MisterrSingh]

I wonder what the Punjabi of the 13th to 18th century sounded like compared to what we know it to be in contemporary times? Was it as different in style as English of the medieval times is compared to present-day English?

[BhForce]

3 hours ago, Premi5 said:

I think all the Guru's (1-9) were born in Punjab and their first language was Punjabi. Is this true for Guru Gobind Singh who was born in Patna?

For the purposes of this post, let's leave aside the divine aspect of Satguru, where Guru Sahib is omniscient. 

On a worldly level, children easily pick up the language spoken around them (the language of Bihar in Guru Gobind Singh ji's case). But note also that children of American missionaries in Africa learn perfect American English from their parents. So the ma-boli of Guru Gobind Singh ji would be Punjabi as learned from Mata Gujri ji.

3 hours ago, Premi5 said:

Did the Gurus speak with Sikhs from different plAces in their own language or mainly Punjabi?

Fascinating question. There was a Persian traveller named Mohisin Fani who met with the 6th Guru. I wonder what language they conversed in.

This also applies to conversations had during Guru Nanak ji's udasis.

[BhForce]

3 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I wonder what the Punjabi of the 13th to 18th century sounded like compared to what we know it to be in contemporary times? Was it as different in style as English of the medieval times is compared to present-day English?

That would be a fascinating question to explore in a doctoral dissertation. Instead, what we get is losers like Prem Singh and Harjot Singh Oberoi and other acolytes of WH McHew questioning the very foundations of Sikhism (Guru Granth Sahib ji).

[GurjantGnostic]

Would Gurbani compared to colloquial modern punjabi give a good sense of the change over time?

[MisterrSingh]

7 hours ago, BhForce said:

That would be a fascinating question to explore in a doctoral dissertation. Instead, what we get is losers like Prem Singh and Harjot Singh Oberoi and other acolytes of WH McHew questioning the very foundations of Sikhism (Guru Granth Sahib ji).

Could the compositional and grammatical styles of Gurbani be used as an accurate indicator to gauge the spoken form of Punjabi from those times? Or is that as silly as suggesting everyone in Tudor England spoke in the way that Shakespeare used to write his various works? I never really gave it much thought until OP started this topic, but now I'm fascinated.

[jkvlondon]

12 hours ago, BhForce said:

For the purposes of this post, let's leave aside the divine aspect of Satguru, where Guru Sahib is omniscient. 

On a worldly level, children easily pick up the language spoken around them (the language of Bihar in Guru Gobind Singh ji's case). But note also that children of American missionaries in Africa learn perfect American English from their parents. So the ma-boli of Guru Gobind Singh ji would be Punjabi as learned from Mata Gujri ji.

Fascinating question. There was a Persian traveller named Mohisin Fani who met with the 6th Guru. I wonder what language they conversed in.

This also applies to conversations had during Guru Nanak ji's udasis.

probaly Farsi ... anyway Guru Nanak Dev ji went everywhere with numerous diverse language and spoke the language of the peoples there which is amazing considering the places, china, srilanka, assam, nepal , leh , ladakh, afghanisthan , saudi arabia, iran , iraq, rome , turkey, (probably greece too )

[Guest GuestSingh]

17 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I wonder what the Punjabi of the 13th to 18th century sounded like compared to what we know it to be in contemporary times? Was it as different in style as English of the medieval times is compared to present-day English?

More care was probably taken in fully-pronouncing letters - most of the diaspora are too absorbed with western living and seem to have copied the western habit of being lazy with certain consonants and vowels, so words with incorrect pronunciation are now accepted and certain letters have or will become obsolete.

Earlier centuries, most likely, used more Sanskrit and breath then slowly losing and replacing them over time with Persian and tone.

Many differences now and it'll change again in the future.

7 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Could the compositional and grammatical styles of Gurbani be used as an accurate indicator to gauge the spoken form of Punjabi from those times? Or is that as silly as suggesting everyone in Tudor England spoke in the way that Shakespeare used to write his various works? I never really gave it much thought until OP started this topic, but now I'm fascinated.

That's an interesting question.

My guess is that not every person had an interest in poetry or making a living from it - agricultural resources would have been more abundant and a commonly-accepted living?

Using words sparingly would seem to be part of old Panjabi culture as people kept busy and active in a much bigger area, although family occasions and bartering at markets might have been different?

[Premi5]

On 15/03/2018 at 8:58 AM, MisterrSingh said:

Could the compositional and grammatical styles of Gurbani be used as an accurate indicator to gauge the spoken form of Punjabi from those times? Or is that as silly as suggesting everyone in Tudor England spoke in the way that Shakespeare used to write his various works? I never really gave it much thought until OP started this topic, but now I'm fascinated.

To some extent. But definitely, the Gurbani written in punjabi sounds different to me than modern punjabi and no doubt the language has evolved a lot in the past 500 years

[Not2Cool2Argue]

On 14/03/2018 at 9:27 PM, BhForce said:

Fascinating question. There was a Persian traveller named Mohisin Fani who met with the 6th Guru. I wonder what language they conversed in.

There is a website by a sikh who claims guruji traveled to Rome and china. He says that guruji preached to Greek fishermen. Since the ottomon or pesian empire ruled most of the middle east, he says guruji was able to converse with all using persian. He lists the shabd yak araj guftam pesh as the persian one. I forget the website but u guys should take a look.

He even had proof of guruji visiting Rome to warn the pope against slavery. But i dont remember wat language he says guru ji spoke. 

On 15/03/2018 at 3:20 PM, GuestSingh said:

Using words sparingly would seem to be part of old Panjabi culture as people kept busy and active in a much bigger area, although family occasions and bartering at markets might have been different?

Not true. Even in some families now. The tradition of baata (riddles) and night time stories from the elders exist. Most kids used to look forward to that time of sharing stories and riddles. There were also the songs, i forget wat their called, that were sung at all occasions. Where old ladies sing at weddings wjthout instruments. And women had a tradition of meeting up to weave, and spin and of singing/talking whike doing charka etc. Not to mention maraasis who were like the local comedians, singers etc.

Also my nani tells me. People esp.women never used to curse using bad words but used to be very creative. Like may u get a.noh and then she will show u ur place. May ur house be filled with workers, ( implying so u have no time to waste but have to make 50 rotis a day)