Key findings about the religious composition of India - Shocking

[Jai Tegang!]

Having 3 children families is very attainable for our community and would reverse our downward slide. We have to create a social acceptance and hold it as the ideal instead of the current 2 child norm most follow. Having more kids would also increase the social networks that will otherwise shrink quite dramatically after the boomers go boom. More populated families bring a certain rejuvenation and ripple affect that sort of alleviates certain pessimisms that are plaguing our more isolated and diminishing households. I’ve seen this both here in the west and back in Punjab. Bigger the families, the more camaraderie and optimism.

[MisterrSingh]

4 hours ago, Jai Tegang! said:

Having 3 children families is very attainable for our community and would reverse our downward slide. We have to create a social acceptance and hold it as the ideal instead of the current 2 child norm most follow. Having more kids would also increase the social networks that will otherwise shrink quite dramatically after the boomers go boom. More populated families bring a certain rejuvenation and ripple affect that sort of alleviates certain pessimisms that are plaguing our more isolated and diminishing households. I’ve seen this both here in the west and back in Punjab. Bigger the families, the more camaraderie and optimism.

Maybe this is anecdotal but I get the impression that low birth rates in Sikh families back in Punjab might have something to do with the entanglements that arise between brothers who have to vie for a limited acreage of inheritable farmland. We all know that for those people, accepting one's rightful share is sometimes never enough. It's not the complete picture but I think it's a contributor.

EDIT: I forgot to write my main point: The more siblings there are born to one set of parents, the less each sibling receives of the land from the father's estate. In the higgledy-piggledy thinking of modern Punjabis, I think they see themselves as being generous to the couple of kids they do end up producing by limiting the extent to which their generational land is divvied up between offspring, i.e. jameen split between 2 sons will go further than if it was split between 5 sons, which would obviously raise the potential for conflict if one or more Lady Macbeths () found themselves whispering conspiracies into the ears of their husbands at the expense of the other sibling/s.

At least that's how they try to justify their disinterest in raising children.

[Premi5]

27 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Maybe this is anecdotal but I get the impression that low birth rates in Sikh families back in Punjab might have something to do with the entanglements that arise between brothers who have to vie for a limited acreage of inheritable farmland. We all know that for those people, accepting one's rightful share is sometimes never enough. It's not the complete picture but I think it's a contributor.

Might be a few reasons:

- Rise in urban dwelling

- Fewer neonatal deaths so less need for more births (a minor reason probably as child deaths probably have stayed low for around 100 years and I am not aware of any in my extended famoly)

- 'Modernisation' - women/families are aware that it's not the 'done thing'

- Effect of Western relatives /what they see in their Western relatives (although I think even in the West up to 2-3 generations ago, it was typical for Punjabi families to have 3-5 children born )

[jkvlondon]

On 9/24/2021 at 5:50 AM, S1ngh said:

Sikh population is not rising considering it is guru's birth place, their sacrifice and one of the major dharam who disavow the inequalities - be it caste, gender, color/creed etc etc

the population of sikhs is rising but you have factor in the ones that mature and go abroad , besides they hide us all the time by lumping us in with buddhists and jains , same trick employed in all other countries which is disgusting considering we number more than the jewish population worldwide.

my take is' hum do humare do' istotally irrelevant for sikhs as we are barely replacing numbers and is it not our responsibility to counter balance the adharmi lok and increase the number of good people going into the future of the world ?

Talking to my Mum and Masi ji about numbers of siblings in previous generations it was only two generations back that people were having kids in averages of 7

myself - 4: 3 boys 1 girl

mother - 4:  2boys 2 girls

nani - 7: 5 boys 2 girls

dadi - 5: 4 boys 1 girl

pad nani - 6 4 boys 2 girls

sard nani - 10 : 9 boys 1girl

 

This false dialogue that sikhs are less fertile , is bogus they are simply being 'good little citizens' and stopping at one or two .

[GurjantGnostic]

3 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

the population of sikhs is rising but you have factor in the ones that mature and go abroad , besides they hide us all the time by lumping us in with buddhists and jains , same trick employed in all other countries which is disgusting considering we number more than the jewish population worldwide.

my take is' hum do humare do' istotally irrelevant for sikhs as we are barely replacing numbers and is it not our responsibility to counter balance the adharmi lok and increase the number of good people going into the future of the world ?

Talking to my Mum and Masi ji about numbers of siblings in previous generations it was only two generations back that people were having kids in averages of 7

myself - 4: 3 boys 1 girl

mother - 4:  2boys 2 girls

nani - 7: 5 boys 2 girls

dadi - 5: 4 boys 1 girl

pad nani - 6 4 boys 2 girls

sard nani - 10 : 9 boys 1girl

 

This false dialogue that sikhs are less fertile , is bogus they are simply being 'good little citizens' and stopping at one or two .

There are certain fears, based on the western model, economic and educational. I think a lot of people feel their only chance to have proper resources, to fund a childs caste, I mean miseducation, I mean education, is to only have one or few children. 

Only people with...

A)enough money to put many kids through the extracuricular activities, private schools, tutors and university. 

B)People who receive money per child from welfare and therefore become more and more financially stable with each child. 

C)People that don't care and do it anyway knowing they will have to be the education and extracuricular activities. 

...Have large families or want large families.  Heck most people are so selfish or broke they don't even want one baby.  

If education was being handled by the Sangat, and we were all collaborating more in a variety of ways our tribal ancestors, and more importantly the Purtan Gursikhs, did, we too could easily and abundantly have many children. Or at least feel free to. 

But it takes a change in mindset, time and resources. 

The quakers tended not to have children, but instead adopt from the overabundance of unloved, unprovided for, children in the world and that is a way to grow the Paanth too. 

 

 

[GurjantGnostic]

Changes to farming in india is going to shrink the birth rate of Sikhs for sure. Farm families are one of the only large remaining family models. 

[Jai Tegang!]

12 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Maybe this is anecdotal but I get the impression that low birth rates in Sikh families back in Punjab might have something to do with the entanglements that arise between brothers who have to vie for a limited acreage of inheritable farmland. We all know that for those people, accepting one's rightful share is sometimes never enough. It's not the complete picture but I think it's a contributor.

EDIT: I forgot to write my main point: The more siblings there are born to one set of parents, the less each sibling receives of the land from the father's estate. In the higgledy-piggledy thinking of modern Punjabis, I think they see themselves as being generous to the couple of kids they do end up producing by limiting the extent to which their generational land is divvied up between offspring, i.e. jameen split between 2 sons will go further than if it was split between 5 sons, which would obviously raise the potential for conflict if one or more Lady Macbeths () found themselves whispering conspiracies into the ears of their husbands at the expense of the other sibling/s.

At least that's how they try to justify their disinterest in raising children.

That is THE most contributing factor for reduction in children, in combination with the lower stigma with using birth control in our community (relative to other Indians). Also, partition terminated the Jatt expansion in the canal colonies and left us with smaller land holdings and less fertile options (like Rajasthan). This meant we could only squeeze out 1-2 generations post-partition of large families with secure land holding transfers with expansion potential.

The situation now is that most land holdings are already quite small and farming families know there is no chance of maintaining their economic status without finding a job in the city. So, whether they have 2 kids or no kids, their fortunes are stunted unless they create businesses or expand their skills. In this sense the other castes are doing quite well in fact. They have their businesses that are generating decent steady incomes and easier opportunities for growth (easier to open up a small shop than it is to purchase enough agri land for sustainable income). I’ve seen in my own ancestral village where the dalits have opened up small shops in front of their homes or have ventured out into nearby townships and started small businesses. Quite remarkable actually as they’ve managed to eclipse the stagnant jatt families.

[dallysingh101]

8 minutes ago, Jai Tegang! said:

That is THE most contributing factor for reduction in children, in combination with the lower stigma with using birth control in our community (relative to other Indians). Also, partition terminated the Jatt expansion in the canal colonies and left us with smaller land holdings and less fertile options (like Rajasthan). This meant we could only squeeze out 1-2 generations post-partition of large families with secure land holding transfers with expansion potential.

The situation now is that most land holdings are already quite small and farming families know there is no chance of maintaining their economic status without finding a job in the city. So, whether they have 2 kids or no kids, their fortunes are stunted unless they create businesses or expand their skills. In this sense the other castes are doing quite well in fact. They have their businesses that are generating decent steady incomes and easier opportunities for growth (easier to open up a small shop than it is to purchase enough agri land for sustainable income). I’ve seen in my own ancestral village where the dalits have opened up small shops in front of their homes or have ventured out into nearby townships and started small businesses. Quite remarkable actually as they’ve managed to eclipse the stagnant jatt families.

How's the construction industry going on in Panjab? I see loads of other Indians, even here in the UK, doing high level jobs in that field, and they look like they've been trained back home.  Why isn't this industry blowing up in Panjab? What about structural engineers, civil engineers etc etc.  

[Jai Tegang!]

1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

How's the construction industry going on in Panjab? I see loads of other Indians, even here in the UK, doing high level jobs in that field, and they look like they've been trained back home.  Why isn't this industry blowing up in Panjab? What about structural engineers, civil engineers etc etc.  

I’ve never come across an apana that brings any trade skills from Punjab when they come over either as students or through marriage. Driving a tractor-trolley is probably the only skill they can transfer over to, perhaps, trucking, lol. They don’t really value quality trademanship over there from what I’ve seen. You get hacks and jugaadis doing odd jobs around the pind with more artistic trades being brought in from other states (at least that’s what I saw from the few villages I visited). I didn’t see construction companies comparable to even the small-sized ones apaney often start here in Canada, and probably same for UK. The bigger construction projects like roads and towers (in Mohali) appeared to be run by non-punjabis, including the labor. Vast number of apany fall into trades when they arrive here, yet they never bother learning these skills from back home, instead they pursue useless degrees that have no value here or in their native place.

There’s no career counselling and diversification in the schooling system. Kids go through the system for the sake of it, not to actually pick up skills they could use in their local economy

[dallysingh101]

2 hours ago, Jai Tegang! said:

There’s no career counselling and diversification in the schooling system. Kids go through the system for the sake of it, not to actually pick up skills they could use in their local economy

I don't think that's any different to much of working class UK.