Many Wives In Sikhism

[JSingh]

Read about his jeevni and then make your decision on what kind of Sikh he was. From next time I advice that you do not start bashing any Gursikhs like this

Bahi Sahib Ji, I have no doubt that Bhai Randhir Singh Ji was a great Grusikhi. Even Sant Attar Singh Ji accepted this when someone questioned Bhai Sahib's strict Rehat.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[joga singh]

a controversy is a controversy and it will remain controversy until and unless

himself shri guru gobind singh ji solves it.

no outcome by reading all those books and such a long discussion.

we will never reach any conclusion , same as our ancesters could not,

there are different views.

if some controversy is around u , only u can solve it.isn't.

so forget about it.

wait for shri guru gobind singh ji to comeback.

[JSingh]

wait for shri guru gobind singh ji to comeback.

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not gone anywhere. Do you know when Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji was ready to leave this earth physically, Sikhs asked him what would we do if we want to have your Darshan? Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that he is always within the Khalsa. Khalse de darshan Guru Gobind Singh Ji de darshan han: "Khalsa mero roop hai Khaas, Khalse mein houn Karon Niwas."

Now there are either one of these two or both of these problems that we are facing:

1) We do not deserve Guru Ji's darshan, and therefore, are away from the truth.

and/or

2) We never came across Khalsa.

Khalsa is a very high stage that cannot be even decribed in words.

Bhat Kabir Ji says:

pari-o kaal sabhai jag oopar maahi likhay bharam gi-aanee.

kaho kabeer jan bha-ay khaalsay paraym bhagat jih jaanee. ||4||3|| [sGGS, 654-655]

Death has fallen on the whole world; the doubting religious scholars are also listed on the Register of Death.

Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord`s loving devotional worship. ||4||3||

No matter how much debate we do or engate in controversy, our love for our Guru should never go down.

Lets all pray to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji to remove the doubts of those who deserve to know the truth.

I

know this is not the topic of this discussion, but I remember this Sakhi that I read a long time ago in a book about Sant Attar Singh Ji:

There was a Bhai Sahib who always requested to Sant Ji that he wants to have the Darshan of Sri Guru Gobind Ji just like the way Guru Ji was on this earth. He made this request many times and one day many people were sitting there with Sant Ji and that person was there too. Someone asked for water (I don't know if it were Sant Ji or someone else) and that Bhai Sahib went to bring water. While he was gone, every person sitting there was Sant Ji saw a shocking snene. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji with his Singhs were on the horse, it seemed as if they were on riding their horses on the surface of a river. Then Guru Ji and his Singhs quickly passed by all the people. As soon as it was over, that Bhai Sahib came. When they all told him what they saw, he regretted alot for leaving. Then all of them said that it is because of you we all had the Darshan of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. But it is sad that one who made the requests and the one who actually wanted to see Guru Ji, he was not there at that time.

So I think it is all Guru Sahib's bhana what is happening at each and every moment.

bhul chuk di khima and if i have hurt anyone, please forgive me

[Bijla Singh]

And why is everyone stating that Mata Sahib Kaur Ji was spiritual wife of Guru Gobind Singh Ji? All I have read or heard is that she is spiritual mother of Khalsa.

Singh Ji, you told me to stay away from what I have "heard" so you do the same. Also, as I have stated earlier, If Mata Sahib Kaur Ji was made Khalsa's mother then She must be Guru Ji's wife. Any bibi other than Guru JI's Mehal is Guru Ji's daughter. Mata Sahib Kaur Ji was part of Khalsa Panth so if she was not Mehal of Guru Ji then She was definitely Guru Ji's daughter but that is wrong. Also, She is called "Mata" because Guru JI's Mehal is always referred to as "Mata".

I also respect Baba Ji's views and everything he's done BUT his views do contradict views of other Maha Purakhs, this is NOT to prove that Baba Gurbhachan Singh Ji was ANY LOWER than other Sikhs but just to point out that even Gursikhs can have different point of views, because after all they are Sikhs, not Guru Sahib. Right? "Bhullan Andar Sab Ko Abhull Guru Kartar" Remember this?

I totally understand this SIngh Ji but please provide names of Gursikhs who wrote that Guru Ji in tenth form had only one wife. I

am not interested to know whom he had what differences with. You cannot call someone wrong without any reason. If Sant Ji wrote wrong, give reasons and provide solid proofs.

Thanks for understanding my point. So when we might talk about Bhai Santokh Singh Ji's opinion or research about Guru Sahib having more than one wife, I think we would need to think if that has milavat aswell or not.

Again, need reasons. I provided reasons for raag maala. Bhai Sahib Ji clearly wrote that "I don't know why Guru Ji wrote Raag Maala". which proves that He did not do any research on this. Sooraj Parkash is work from Sau Sakhi (older version), Gurblias and Mahima Parkash and none of these books talk about raag maala being the issue. sooraj parkash is the first one and it provides no details and no reasons. I gave you my reasons for not accepting this part of sooraj parkash. You provide your reasons for not accepting Guru Ji having three wives and saying "i just don't" doesn't cut it.

One wrong thing in a book does not mean everything is wrong in the book. For example, Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha wrote in Mahaan Kosh that gurmantar is "Wahguru". now tell me, would you not accept it at all? This book is very valuable source for us and so is sooraj parkash. one wrong thing in mahaan kosh does not mean all of the book is wrong and same applies to sooraj parkash.

And I hope you cannot prove that Guru Sahib went and killed or hunted animals at random?

Guru Ji is maha kaal and He has

every right to kill any animal or human being. but Guru Ji did not kill randomly. there is an article on the net which talks about all the animals and birds Guru Ji killed and details reasoning is provided of their previous births. i will try to find it but you might have it. Guru JI did not kill randomly.

Could someone might have built these angeethaas after wards? What proof is there that there that there angeethas were actually of Guru Sahib's ji's mehals?

very nice way to turn your back on something you don't want to accept. raag maala was added by "someone". Shabad in Dasam Granth about Panj Kakkar was added by "someone" and now this. if someone built this then Gursikhs would've known about it. they didn't live in jungles forever unattached from what was going on in Gurdwaras. also, what proofs are there that these are not the real angeethas? who built these then? any name, proof, year? but let me walk you through some things.

Singhs always used to visit Gurdwaras and repaired them from time to time. Sardar Baghel Singh and Sardar Jaasa Singh Raamgharia took over Delhi and did seva of all the gurdwaras. if angeethas were wrong they would've destroyed them. lets assume angeethas were built when mahants took over. even then this argument fails because gursikhs were still there and knew Sikhi. Gursikhs took over Gurdwaras and removed all the idols then surely they could've destryoed these angeethas. but they did not. Bhai Mani SIngh Ji was there when Mata Ji passed away and angeetha was built during his time. Where Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji gave sacrifice, that place still exists inside Gurdwara Sahib. any proof this is the exact place? Gursikh sin 18th century knew exactly where what happened and they buried peera

sahib or something else to keep record. in case, mughals destroyed gurdwara buildings, sikhs would know where the gurdwara should be built. this was intentions and so much advance thinking of Sikhs.

She was made the spiritual wife of Khalsa, and this not apply that she automatically also became spiritual wife of Guru Sahib.

first of all, i assume you meant to write "mother of khalsa" but even then how is that possible? We call her Mata because She was Mehal of Guru Ji. i have written about it above.

Just like we do not call Guru Tegh Bahadar Sahib Ji our grand father and Mata Gujar Kaur Ji our grand mother and so on. Do we?

no we don't because there is no difference between Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji. is there? Guru Ji clearly says who the real "father" is. Jot is Guru not body so physical relation holds no meaning.

Which other Maha Purakhs have stated the same views as Sant Gurbhachan Singh Ji? If there are any that you know of, please let us know.

Sant Kartar SIngh Ji, Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, taksaal of Satto Wali Galee and many others but any naami gursikh wrote something opposite?

this post got so long. i will write anotehr one for proofs. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki

Fateh

[Bijla Singh]

I would like to correct something I wrote earlier. I found four books instead of two.

1) one of the oldest book written in Sikhi. "Sainpat Gursobha Singh". He writes the most important incidents during Guru Ji's life like meeting Banda Singh and Singh taking over punjab. not much talk about wedding of Guru Ji but it does mention Guru Ji getting married to Mata Sahib Kaur Ji after Mata Jeeto Ji passed away. very brief account.

2) This one is called "Dasmesh Guru Chamatkaar" by Professor Kartar Singh Chawla. weddings mentioned. first, on page 77, 2nd on 86 and third on 484.

3) "Dasam Guru Chamtkaar" by Sodhi Teja Singh. 1st wedding on page 59, 2nd on 70 and third on 421.

4) Most important of all. published in 1900 which is 104 years old. falling apart and luckily i have only volume three which talks about from seventh Nanak to tenth Nanak. it starts from page 591 and name of the author is not known. on ths last page author wrote some details about the book. He called it "Vaartak Sooraj Parkash" because it took him 5 years and so much time to write it. date is written 1900 "eesvee". three weddings are mentioned. 1st on 762, 2nd on 801 and third one on 918. This book is the only book that goes into more depth. It mentions Guru Ji taking four rounds around Guru Granth Sahib Ji with Mata Sahib Kaur Ji and raagis doing kirtan.

There you have four proofs and two from puratan books. Last three books clearly mention that Mata Ajeet kaur Ji and Mata Sundari Ji lived together at Anandpur Sahib and four Sahibzadays were born not born from one Mata Ji. Mata Ajeet kaur Ji passed awayduring time of Guru Ji and saskaar took place. couple years later Mata Sahib Kaur

JI married Guru Ji. Both Mata Jis passed away in Delhi.

Sikhs have one Guru and the same Guru had more than one wife in sixth form which everybody accepts and same Jot, same Guru had more than one wife in tenth form. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not create a very new maryada. JapJi sahib, Anand Sahib, rehraas Sahib and Sohila Sahib existed and Gursikhs used to recite these banis before Khanday Batay Da Amrit. Amrit was there but Guru Ji changed it so that people later on could become "Guru Wale". Only Guru could make someone His chela so Guru Ji passed these rights to Panj Pyare. This is why Guru Ji changed Amrit ceremony. By saying Guru Gobind Singh Ji practiced maryada so his sikhs could follow it, implying that He himself had one wife is wrong because it implies that having more than one wife was acceptable before but then it was changed. Same Guru had more than one wife doesn't matter what form. There is no difference between Guru Hargobind Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Jot is the same therefore, Guru is the same. it wasn't like polygamy was accepted before and then Guru Gobind Singh Ji restricted it to only one wife and changed the maryada. Maryada was built over 240 years and Guru Ji added more and more to make human being perfect and Sant Sipahi. Guru Ji is always without Panj chor and saying "why can't I have three wives if Guru Ji had three" is a complete lust for human beings. the general point was to teach Sikhs to live gristi jeevan and Guru Ji lived it first. think about how many ethical problems would arise if polygamy was accetable in Sikhi.

This is all I have to say. I am done with providing proofs. It is your turn now Singh Ji. provide solid proofs that Guru Ji had only one wife otherwise this is over and I am done for question/answer thing. I am not here to convince anyone. believe in what you want. I only wanted to prove that my belief stands on something. Bhul Chuk Khima.

"He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru

9;s Will. One who walks according to his own will, O Siblings of Destiny, suffers separation from the Lord, and shall be punished." Pannaa 601

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Simran9]

hmmm........interesting points, love the proofs provided by bijla singh ji

i was in agreement with the idea that mata jeeto ji recieved the name sundari from mata gujri cuz mata gujri thought she was beautiful.

this goes with some tradition in the olden days when the in laws would give their daughter in law a differnt name. i dunno why ppl did that though....maybe it was juz a nick name thing. kinda like my name is "simran" but my singh might call me by a different name he likes....

other thing is, why did Guru Gobind Singh ji have more than 1 wife? that I don't care cuz we have the proofs provided here. i juz wanted to know about the previous Guru ji's before him, what is their story...how did they end up with more than one wife....perhaps there is a good explanation like there is for Guru Gobind Singh.

thanx

[mdkaur]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I found this info on www.damdamitaksal.com

10th King

Name Satguru Gobind Singh Jee (Sodh lineage)

Place of Avtar Sri Patna Sahib, Bihar

Date of Avtar 1723 Bikrami, Poh, Sunday 1st January 1666

Parents Mata Gujri Jee, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Jee

Wife/consort Mata Ajit Kaur Jee, Mata Sunder Kaur Jee, Mata Sahib Kaur Jee Ascension to Guruship 1732 Bikrami, Maghar, 17th December, 1675 AD - Sri Anandpur Sahib

Ascension to Sach Kand 1765 Bikrami, Katak, 19th November, 1708 AD - Sri Hajoor Sahib, Nander

Kin Baba Ajit Singh Jee (Born to Mata Sunder Kaur Jee)

aba Jujhar Singh Jee, Baba Zoravar Singh Jee, Baba Fateh Singh Jee (Born to Mata Ajit Kaur Jee)

Lifespan 41 years, 9 months, 28 days

Guruship 32 years, 11 months, 2 days

Sahibzade's Births Sons of Mata Ajeet Kaur Jee:

Baba Jujhar Singh Jee 1692 AD

Baba Zoravar Singh Jee 1695 AD

Baba Fateh Singh Jee 1697 AD

Son of Mata Sundar Kaur Jee:

Baba Ajeet Singh Jee 1689 AD

Children of Mata Sahib Kaur Jee Khalsa Panth bestowed upon Mata Sahib Kaur Jee in 1699 AD as her children.

All 4 Sahibzade and Mata Gujri Jee were martyred in 1704AD.

[Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji]

Thanks for the awesome solid proofs Bijla Singh. Obviously all these 4 books are very hard to get your hands onto, could you be able to scan the pages for us? I'm not saying I don't trust your words but would like to read more for myself. Thanks.