Why Are So Many Moderate Sikhs Against Khalistan

[11Gurus1Jot]

Sikhs were not killed in THOUSANDS before those years. They got butchered in thousands after these major historic events.who did most damage to the innocent sikhs (not with ak47's)? I hope that you understand that our LEADERSHIP (same point as Balait_da_Sher) took wrong decisions and got us killed in thousands .....

Sikhs got killed in thousands after attacks on Darbar sahib. Indira made a blunder but some mistakes were made from our side as well.

general opinion which i have heard and kind of settles down in me as well -----Same kind of people are shouting Khalistan and will save themselves but get others killed....(maybe more those 12-15 thousand as said by Khalra commission).

If you think Indian govt killed those 15 thousand sikhs then think again as many "moderate"(sorry i have to use this word) believe Delhi wanted an excuse to overrun people and our holiest shrine and OUR people gave them that EXCUSE. whom should we blame?

the repercussions were severe like a nuclear explosion and we are still suffering.

I am not asking Sikhs to raise an armed struggle for Khalistan, if you read any of my posts you will not find that anywhere!

If you are saying you do not want any more Sikhs to die and you want more of us born into a Sikh Family to become Amritdhari, and then when we have the numbers, we think about a Homeland where we can live with the same Human Rights as the Hindus have in India, then I totally agree with you. I have never suggested an armed struggle at this point in time, with our numbers being so low.

However, I still don't think there are any Excuses whatsoever for the .25 million Sikh Men, Women and Children, the central government of India raped, tortured or murdered in the 80s and 90s even if that was with the help of the Gaddars/traitors you point up above. There is no excuse for that and we will keep on asking for justice for that, Khalistan or no Khalistan. The Sikhs who picked up arms in the 80s and 90s to try and save the Sikh people from being ethnically cleansed, or the Sikh Genocide from taking place, were totally justified as it has now been proven without doubt that it was definitely the self defence of people against the central government in India, and traitors like KPS Gill, Beant Singh, and Gen. Kuldeep Singh Brar, rather than an armed struggle for a separate state. I think we should realise that it was an armed course of self defence and not a struggle for Khalistan, it was just for survival. We all know that in addition to the traitors Gill, Beant and KS Brar there was the Indian Authorities, and their black cats and third agency who were dressed up as Sikhs killing Sikhs and Hindus.

There is no doubt that the Indian Government started this from 1947 as there are countless examples on them back tracking on all the agreements they made with Sikhs up to 1947. There is no doubt the central government of India has been attacking Sikhs on a Religious, ethnic, cultural, economic and linguistic grounds since 1947. Sikhs have not had the same rights as Hindus have had, and get, in Punjab since 1947! "Started" is the wrong word, the phrase "India has carried out a consistent attack on Sikhs on Religious, ethnic, cultural, economic and linguistic grounds since 1947" would be an accurate statement.

Finally, if you feel like answering my questions A and questions B above please do, it would be nice to have a number from you as to how many Sikhs you think were killed by the Indian Government, the Gaddars they employed, their Army, Police, Black Cats and Third Agency? Just a number would be nice to see what wave length you are on!

[RebelSingh]

On what basis could we demand Haryana or Himachal Pradesh? That was not "given to us" when the British left. That's what was left of the original Punjab Province, which included a great deal of land that was not naturally part of Punjab (i.e. Punjabi was not the native language). That wasn't intended to be anything resembling a Sikh homeland. What do you think the purpose of the Punjabi Suba movement in the 60s was? It was to create a state where Punjabi was the official language. If all of Haryana and Himachal Pradesh fit that description, why the necessity to even have the movement in the first place? We could have just stayed put with "what was given to us". There are a few areas of Himachal Pradesh, Haryana and Rajasthan (mostly bordering Punjab) that have large Sikh populations and would naturally fit into the definition of Punjab. But they are rather small areas. The borders of any future Sikh state are essentially Indian Punjab.

Are you aware that Haryana is 90% Hindu and Himachal Pradesh is 95% Hindu?

first of all YES i do kno Himachal is 95% hindu, BUT, it only has 5million or so inhabitants for starters. Also u say on wat basis should we be given haryana, well the fact that wen the british were offering sikhs khalistan on the table in 1947' discussions, the borders that were drawn up were, from nankana sahib, all of present day panjab, and about 70-80% of haryana, (not sure bowt himachal tho), and we wernt the majority then either, were we?

Would u have complained in hindsight if we had b given that? Also places like jalandhar were majority muslim, even after we ethnically cleansed areas of jalandhar, n massacred muslims 2 the max, yet they still were majority, but had 2 hop on 2 pakistan, so r u sayin that jalandhar shud hav gone 2 pakistan too, and its unjustified for us 2 have it now?

sikh leader of 47' like baldev singh , wen invited 2 london, along with jinnah/nehru etc was asked 2 stay behind, for further time, to discuss sikhs needs and demands, this is also the meeting where jinnah warned sikhs of the possible slavery and backstabbing the hindus will inflict in the future. Shockingly many ppl dont know, but jinnah, actually NEVER wanted partition initially, but wen he saw n realised wat nehru/gandhi wud do in a united "hindustan", then thats wen he had 100% made his mind up, and warned sikhs, but our dumb leader were sooooooooo short sighted, its embarrasing. Recently indian politican jaswant singh released a book praising jinnah, which was subsequenlty banned (what a suprise)!

To this day i still cant get my head around WHY sikhs didnt just say yes to the british and accept their offer! Before the british came, we had arguably the greatest empire in the world (Eff the british empire), yet wen british were goin, didnt it occur in the heads of our leaders that west panjab is goin 2 pakistan, shudnt we jus get wat we can? IDIOTS, even tho baldev/master tara singh, later on regretted it on their deathbeds, we shud throw eggs at their pictures!

[Ek0sikh]

11Gurus1jot veer ji

NOBODY has the correct number. even Khalra commission (estimated 12-15K)came up with a figure from one area only.

have you thought why were they killed? who started those mass killings? why were they done at that particular time?

Do you know how many of our veers are still in jails in India e.g. Jaipur jail.i think we need to think logically when we demand Khalistan. This demand has isolated lots of sikhs and their genuine issues.

[VanHelsingh]

To this day i still cant get my head around WHY sikhs didnt just say yes to the british and accept their offer! Before the british came, we had arguably the greatest empire in the world (Eff the british empire), yet wen british were goin, didnt it occur in the heads of our leaders that west panjab is goin 2 pakistan, shudnt we jus get wat we can? IDIOTS, even tho baldev/master tara singh, later on regretted it on their deathbeds, we shud throw eggs at their pictures!

'Maree kismat' as they in Panjabi. God, its so gutting to read how close we were to having our own homeland. Flip me! :angry2:

[Only five]

Very nice kaveeshri. However, does not explain how to obtain khalsa raj. Please explain how you think victory is defined in Gurmat and explain how that can be used as a strategy for Sikhs to obtain their own homeland, since that is how success is defined in the context that we are talking about veer ji.

In Zafarnama Satguru tells us

ਚਿਹਾ ਸ਼ੁਦ ਕਿ ਚੂੰ ਬੱਚਗਾਂ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹ ਚਾਰ ॥ ਕਿ ਬਾਕੀ ਬਮਾਂਦਸਤ ਪੇਚੀਦਹ ਮਾਰ ॥੭੮॥

चिहा शुद कि चूं ब्चगां कुशतह चार ॥ कि बाकी बमांदसत पेचीदह मार ॥७८॥

What, if you have killed my four sons, the hooded cobra still sits coiled up.78.

ਚਿਹ ਮਰਦੀ ਕਿ ਅਖ਼ਗਰ ਖ਼ਮੋਸ਼ਾਂ ਕੁਨੀ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਤਿਸ਼ ਦਮਾਂ ਰਾ iਫ਼ਰੋਜ਼ਾ ਕੁਨੀ ॥੭੯॥

चिह मरदी कि अख़गर ख़मोशां कुनी ॥ कि आतिश दमां रा iफ़रोज़ा कुनी ॥७९॥

What type of bravery it is to extinguish the speak of fire and fan the flames.79.

ਚਿਹ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਗੁਫ਼ਤ ਫਿਰਦੌਸੀਏ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਜ਼ੁਬਾਂ ॥ ਸ਼ਿਤਾਬੀ ਬਵਦ ਕਾਰਿ ਆਹਰਮਨਾ ॥੮੦॥

चिह ख़ुश गुफ़त फिरदौसीए ख़ुश ज़ुबां ॥ शिताबी बवद कारि आहरमना ॥८०॥

Listen to this well-said quotation of Firdausi : "The hasty action is the work o Satan".80.

Ask yourself who is the hooded cobra in the above lines. It's the Khalsa! Satguru is directly telling everyone in the next lines that the Khalsa (Fire) is unstoppable force. You might think they are burnt out, but they will always be here and taking out the enemies; this is victory as defined by Zafarnama. Read history from Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj time to now. The Khalsa has always been the hooded cobra defending with arms. In 1984 the Hukam was given from Satguru to the hooded cobra. Sant ji led and once again the hooded cobra showed wrongful acts will not be tolerated. The enemy can try to count how many coils the hooded cobra has but they will surely finish their lives before finishing counting. There are countless coils to this hooded cobra. Many Sikhs lose hope when they see many innocent people die (like in 1984), but they don't see the bigger picture here....what Satguru is doing to lead up to Raj Karega Khalsa. The foundation for Khalistan has already been laid down and no one can break this foundation. Too many Sikhs are short sighted and doubt the actions of Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa for starting this fire once again, which Satguru gave him the orders too. Now is the time for the Khalsa to spread Sikhi far and wide and work on our jeevans. Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji Maharaj has told Sikhs of all ages to spread Sikhi far and wide. This means to stop doubting great leaders like Sant ji, to stop bad mouthing what happened in the past, and to stop the fighting in the Khalsa and focus your attention on teaching others what Sikhi is about. The Kavishri are telling the world that the hooded cobra has attacked. The Mughals were reminded that the hooded cobra doesn't die and the Kavishri are telling the world of today the cobra doesn't die.

The Swaiyve tell us there is nothing in conquering the world and some who want Khalistan and when they think about Raj Karega Khalsa believe that everyone in this world will live free from oppression and can do as they wish once Raj Karega Khalsa happens. This is not Raj Karega Khalsa at all. There is no victory in this by Gurmat. We say Fateh when meeting each other and when a task is completed within Gurmat then we also so Fateh. Can a Fateh be uttered for the act of drinking alcohol? Raj Karega Khalsa is where everyone in this world will be bowing to Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj with utmost love. The foundation of Raj Karega Khalsa is Khalistan, which will be developed in the way Maharaj wants it. Sant ji has said how it will go down. If you want to know how then talk to a Gursikh Taksali Singh. It all comes back to, Satguru has instructed us to follow Hukams and we need to work on living by these Hukams. This mother earth is the womb and we are protected by Maharaj all the time and don't need to worry/plan for the future. Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa was given direct orders from Satguru to start the Dharm Yudh Morcha and he did. Sant ji didnt just get up one day and say i want to start it today so lets start planning it out Singho! Satguru has given us orders and we need to follow these orders...Bhagti Bhagti Bhagti Bhagti and spread Sikhi to the world. Without Bhagti a Sikh can't spread Sikhi to anyone....how can he influence others when he is not even able to practice Sikhi.

Those brothers that are saying why can't we plan for Khalistan today. Can a baby plan at the point of birth what he will do to make money? We don't have the spirituality to plan. Those brothers that start planning today and then Maharaj does kirpa and we start doing Bhagti. Then the previous plans we had made will be worthless because while doing bhagti we increased our jeevans and understand the ways of the world at a higher level, which is different than before.

[11Gurus1Jot]

11Gurus1jot veer ji

NOBODY has the correct number. even Khalra commission (estimated 12-15K)came up with a figure from one area only.

have you thought why were they killed? who started those mass killings? why were they done at that particular time?

Do you know how many of our veers are still in jails in India e.g. Jaipur jail.i think we need to think logically when we demand Khalistan. This demand has isolated lots of sikhs and their genuine issues.

I see what you mean Veer Ji, however, if the genuine issues (justice) is not forthcoming then people feel that injustice will only continue when we are allowed to live in peace under are own rule rather than as slaves and puppets of the Brahmin Central Government of India. I think it's fair play to all the Sikhs who think we will get justice from India. Try it. But when justice is never given, your genuine issues never addressed, and instead further injustices are committed, you too, will ask for a Sikh Homeland (Khalsa Raj). All of us Sikhs will all come to realise that a Sikh State is the only solution, it's just that we'll all come to that realisation at different times.

I hope I am proved wrong one day and Sikhs get the same rights as Hindus in Punjab! But I think you find that will never happen. If the indian government starts to kill more Sikhs over the next few years please don't just keep blaming ourselves to ease your conscience. I know it sometimes feels easier to believe we are not being killed at the orders of the Hindu Brahmins in the central government of India but we are somehow killing ourselves. Sometimes you have to stare the enemy in the face and take them on through peaceful and legal means. The Kesri/ipledge lehar, the human rights movement has started. Lets keep it going, in a peaceful and legal manner, it's about is remaining awake and making the rest of the world aware of the injustices that have been commited against the Sikhs and are still being commited against the Sikhs in India.

I know nobody knows the exact number. However, you must a minimum number of Sikhs that you believe were killed in the 80s and 90s? Just a minimum India wide number in the 80s and 90s? I think it's close to .25million with all the countless witness statements I have read and heard via the media, books, and newspapers, from many many every day normal Sikh Women and Men. There's also the numbers I have read in countless books, dated newspaper articles and documents. Just give me the minimum number you think it is. I just want to gauge your threshold of how many deaths you could tolerate before you think a Sikh Homeland is required?

[UKLondonSikh]

11Gurus1Jot this is my position on your reply to ek0Sikh.

We all want the same thing. Just differences on how to achieve justice+equality for all.

I see what you mean Veer Ji, however, if the genuine issues (justice) is not forthcoming then people feel that injustice will only continue when we are allowed to live in peace under are own rule rather than as slaves and puppets of the Brahmin Central Government of India.

>>Yep that's correct, if they ever try to murder Sikhs by the thousands again ... even people like ek0Sikh + myself would advocate armed resistance to free us from their tyranny. But I think things are a lot different in 2012. Sardar Rajoana not getting hanged in of itself is proof that changes are occurring. I actually foresee Sardar Rajoana being released on common sense grounds in a few years. One day i hope him and Shaheed Beant Singh will be recognised as desh Bhagats at the same stature as Bhagat Singh ... becuase they took out politicians at the root of the problem rather than targetting innocent Hindu's. I also believe we need to step back from labelling the GOI "Brahmin". It certainly had an over-representation of Brahmins in 1984 but day by day the Brahmin influence in India is shrinking politically due to the weight of demographic pressures in India. Remember that the majority of the several hundreds of thousands of Sikhs in Jammu+Kashmir and Uttarakhand are actually Gursikhs whose ancestors were originally Brahmins (as in the case of Bhai Mati Das & Bhai Sati Das). Let's be clear cut that we hate GOI's evil poiliticians and that several of the top jobs that were occupied by Brahmins in 1984 are now occupied by Sikhs today in 2012.

I think it's fair play to all the Sikhs who think we will get justice from India. Try it. But when justice is never given, your genuine issues never addressed, and instead further injustices are committed, you too, will ask for a Sikh Homeland (Khalsa Raj). All of us Sikhs will all come to realise that a Sikh State is the only solution, it's just that we'll all come to that realisation at different times.

>>True but I'd like to see all of present day India become "that" Sikh state ... there obviously wouldn't be any Delhi style pogroms then ... I think I am optimistic that the 95% of India's non-Sikhs realise that never again can politicians be allowed to repeat the genocide against our Panth that lost in my opinion around at least 50,000 innocent Sikh lives.

I hope I am proved wrong one day and Sikhs get the same rights as Hindus in Punjab!

>>Which rights do you feel we are denied that the Hindu Punjabi's enjoy? Given that the PM of India is a Sikh, the Head of the Army will be a Sikh, the CM of Punjab is nominally Sikh as are the majority of MLA's and MP's in Punjab. Compared to the adivasi's and Dalits of India i don't think we're doing too bad ... though the denial of justice related to 1984 aggrieves me deeply and we must continue to fight that battle.

But I think you find that will never happen. If the indian government starts to kill more Sikhs over the next few years please don't just keep blaming ourselves to ease your conscience. I know it sometimes feels easier to believe we are not being killed at the orders of the Hindu Brahmins in the central government of India but we are somehow killing ourselves.

>>Let's be clear ... 100% of the fault lies with GOI. However, we aided and abbetted those crooks by doing exactly what they wanted so that they could demonise us a community for their own political gain. By demanding Khalistan just like how Indira wanted ... we suffered the most ... by playing into the stereotype they expected of us ... that these folks will demand Khalistan and hence we will attack them to gain a comprehensive election victory to appease the Hindutva ideology of RSS.

Sometimes you have to stare the enemy in the face and take them on through peaceful and legal means. The Kesri/ipledge lehar, the human rights movement has started. Lets keep it going, in a peaceful and legal manner, it's about is remaining awake and making the rest of the world aware of the injustices that have been commited against the Sikhs and are still being commited against the Sikhs in India.

>>Totally agree and furthermore let's beat the centre by aligning ourselves with those other segments of the Indian population who are also denied their human rights from Adivasi's, Dalits, Naga's, Bodo's ... you name it ... unitedly we can overcome the enemy.

I know nobody knows the exact number. However, you must a minimum number of Sikhs that you believe were killed in the 80s and 90s? Just a minimum India wide number in the 80s and 90s? I think it's close to .25million with all the countless witness statements I have read and heard via the media, books, and newspapers, from many many every day normal Sikh Women and Men. There's also the numbers I have read in countless books, dated newspaper articles and documents. Just give me the minimum number you think it is. I just want to gauge your threshold of how many deaths you could tolerate before you think a Sikh Homeland is required?

>>In all honesty i don't even think we can tolerate a dozen deaths of innocent Sikhs in broad daylight ... however, even in the case of Shaheed Bhai Jaspal Singh ... we have to ask is that solely the responsibility of Dr Manmohan Singh at the centre or does the evil (supposedly) Sikh cop who shot our shaheed naujawan need to be held accountable for his actions? Like you, I am totally sick of us being the victims (when we are a peaceful Qaum and only self-defend ourselves) but i think that the media + legal recourse (as well as increasing our numbers) are the way forward Paji particularly now that India has evolved politically with power no longer being restricted to Brahmin Congress politicians ... those days ended after the implementation of the Mandal Commission report in regards to reservation. I am totally convinced that 1 billion Hindu's do not hate us and that coalition governments are not out to destroy the Panth any time soon. We can only be destroyed if we are complicit in our destruction. By fighting the drugs menace, opposing caste divisions + stopping female infanticide as three priorities of many first, our Panth can never be denied true freedom overall

[pedrorizzo]

In Zafarnama Satguru tells us

ਚਿਹਾ ਸ਼ੁਦ ਕਿ ਚੂੰ ਬੱਚਗਾਂ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹ ਚਾਰ ॥ ਕਿ ਬਾਕੀ ਬਮਾਂਦਸਤ ਪੇਚੀਦਹ ਮਾਰ ॥੭੮॥

चिहा शुद कि चूं ब्चगां कुशतह चार ॥ कि बाकी बमांदसत पेचीदह मार ॥७८॥

What, if you have killed my four sons, the hooded cobra still sits coiled up.78.

ਚਿਹ ਮਰਦੀ ਕਿ ਅਖ਼ਗਰ ਖ਼ਮੋਸ਼ਾਂ ਕੁਨੀ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਤਿਸ਼ ਦਮਾਂ ਰਾ iਫ਼ਰੋਜ਼ਾ ਕੁਨੀ ॥੭੯॥

चिह मरदी कि अख़गर ख़मोशां कुनी ॥ कि आतिश दमां रा iफ़रोज़ा कुनी ॥७९॥

What type of bravery it is to extinguish the speak of fire and fan the flames.79.

ਚਿਹ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਗੁਫ਼ਤ ਫਿਰਦੌਸੀਏ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਜ਼ੁਬਾਂ ॥ ਸ਼ਿਤਾਬੀ ਬਵਦ ਕਾਰਿ ਆਹਰਮਨਾ ॥੮੦॥

चिह ख़ुश गुफ़त फिरदौसीए ख़ुश ज़ुबां ॥ शिताबी बवद कारि आहरमना ॥८०॥

Listen to this well-said quotation of Firdausi : "The hasty action is the work o Satan".80.

Ask yourself who is the hooded cobra in the above lines. It's the Khalsa! Satguru is directly telling everyone in the next lines that the Khalsa (Fire) is unstoppable force. You might think they are burnt out, but they will always be here and taking out the enemies; this is victory as defined by Zafarnama. Read history from Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj time to now. The Khalsa has always been the hooded cobra defending with arms. In 1984 the Hukam was given from Satguru to the hooded cobra. Sant ji led and once again the hooded cobra showed wrongful acts will not be tolerated. The enemy can try to count how many coils the hooded cobra has but they will surely finish their lives before finishing counting. There are countless coils to this hooded cobra. Many Sikhs lose hope when they see many innocent people die (like in 1984), but they don't see the bigger picture here....what Satguru is doing to lead up to Raj Karega Khalsa. The foundation for Khalistan has already been laid down and no one can break this foundation. Too many Sikhs are short sighted and doubt the actions of Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa for starting this fire once again, which Satguru gave him the orders too. Now is the time for the Khalsa to spread Sikhi far and wide and work on our jeevans. Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji Maharaj has told Sikhs of all ages to spread Sikhi far and wide. This means to stop doubting great leaders like Sant ji, to stop bad mouthing what happened in the past, and to stop the fighting in the Khalsa and focus your attention on teaching others what Sikhi is about. The Kavishri are telling the world that the hooded cobra has attacked. The Mughals were reminded that the hooded cobra doesn't die and the Kavishri are telling the world of today the cobra doesn't die.

The Swaiyve tell us there is nothing in conquering the world and some who want Khalistan and when they think about Raj Karega Khalsa believe that everyone in this world will live free from oppression and can do as they wish once Raj Karega Khalsa happens. This is not Raj Karega Khalsa at all. There is no victory in this by Gurmat. We say Fateh when meeting each other and when a task is completed within Gurmat then we also so Fateh. Can a Fateh be uttered for the act of drinking alcohol? Raj Karega Khalsa is where everyone in this world will be bowing to Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj with utmost love. The foundation of Raj Karega Khalsa is Khalistan, which will be developed in the way Maharaj wants it. Sant ji has said how it will go down. If you want to know how then talk to a Gursikh Taksali Singh. It all comes back to, Satguru has instructed us to follow Hukams and we need to work on living by these Hukams. This mother earth is the womb and we are protected by Maharaj all the time and don't need to worry/plan for the future. Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa was given direct orders from Satguru to start the Dharm Yudh Morcha and he did. Sant ji didnt just get up one day and say i want to start it today so lets start planning it out Singho! Satguru has given us orders and we need to follow these orders...Bhagti Bhagti Bhagti Bhagti and spread Sikhi to the world. Without Bhagti a Sikh can't spread Sikhi to anyone....how can he influence others when he is not even able to practice Sikhi.

Those brothers that are saying why can't we plan for Khalistan today. Can a baby plan at the point of birth what he will do to make money? We don't have the spirituality to plan. Those brothers that start planning today and then Maharaj does kirpa and we start doing Bhagti. Then the previous plans we had made will be worthless because while doing bhagti we increased our jeevans and understand the ways of the world at a higher level, which is different than before.

Thanks veerji you explained the lines very well and I understand what you are saying about the hooded cobra etc.. ie that the spirit of Sikhs cannot be broken etc. so we must have faith in the future and the plan of waheguru etc. However, it is still a purely spiritual answer and is not good enough for me in terms of strategy.

I understand that you are a Taksali Singh and strong supporter of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and you believe that Akal Purakh instructed him the true plan on how Khalsa Raj should be achieved etc. However, I simply just dont support him in the same way that you do and have the same kind of faith in him that you do.

I totally disagree with the parchaar that is now coming out of the Taksaal regarding who Jarnail Singh was and what they have now built him up to be and the stories they have circulated about him. I have friends from the UK that have stayed at the Taksal and frankly I was shocked about what they were being told by some of the sewadars, about the Sant doing miracles etc. When the Gurus themselves rejected miracles and refused to do them when they had the ability, why would Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale?

Regarding the Taksal, I am aware of its beliefs and its Maryada. There are parts of it that I agree with and large parts that I disagree with. I think that the Taksal is great for producing kathavachiks and paathis. However, I personally would not look for leadership or strategy from there and nor would I look for great Generals.

Now, I apologise if you find my views disrespectful. I know that followers of the Taksal believe that it is the supreme truth, started by Guru Gobind Singh ji and the lineage of Baba Deep Singh etc. However, it is important for Taksali followers to understand that not all Sikhs in the Panth follow Taksal and not all Sikhs follow/agree with Taksali views/maryada.

Now, what you say that Sikhs should do bhagti, improve their jeevan and spread sikhi... I am totally in agreement with this. No problem with that whatsoever.

However, when you start saying things like we shouldnt plan ahead for Khalsa Raj etc because we dont have the spirituality for it and we shouldnt question the strategies of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale because he received orders from Akal Purakh and it doesnt matter if innocent people die because that is all just part of the greater plan etc, then I think you will start to find some serious divergences and differences with the rest of the Khalsa Panth.

So in conclusion, I'll summarise my points. My personal view is that the Taksal is not the place to look for panthic leadership as its main focus is on developing paathis and kathavachiks. Just because Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale came from there and led the panth, does not mean anybody else is going to come out of there who will appeal to the broad cross section in the Panth, in this day and age.

A more sound strategy is required for the development of Khalsa Raj which translates into achievable and tangible aims and objectives rather than spiritual theories that only appeal to select jathebandis. I agree with you that the Khalsa is a 'kharapa Sap' whose spirit cannot be broken and is always prepared to spring back into action, just when its enemies think that it has beaten.

I also agree that greater Sikhi parchaar is required and that this is the basis for development of Khalsa Raj because, simply put, we need more Sikhs, and we need more people who sympathise with Sikh causes. In this respect, a parcharik organisation such as the Taksal can play an important role in the process.

[chatanga]

When the Gurus themselves rejected miracles and refused to do them when they had the ability, why would Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale?

I dont wish to deviate from this topic, but the above line could do with some healthy debate. Is there an existing thread on Guru's and Miracles or can we start a new topic?

thanks.

[West London Singh]

UKLondonSingh, You posted a reply directed at me and I would like to respond however...I have to say the way you structure your posts does make it difficult to understand exactly what it was you said but....picking up little bits here and there I can see that you are one of those that liike to use the argument that most ill-informed Hindus use, i.e the fact that the prime minister of India is a Sikh and the politicians / Police of Punjab are Sikh, and Sikhs in India are doing great financially.

Well, the less said about the patheticaly impotent Manmohan Singh the better....but if you think that most of those Punjab policemen that wear the turban as a hat as part of the official uniform are actually keshdari sikhs you are sorely mistaken.

Then you repeatedly make reference to the fact that muslim jatts massacred 300,000 Sikhs during partition. Well...firstly, you need to know that unlike Sikh Punjabis, the jatts only make up a small minority of Muslim Punjabis, with the vast majority of them belonging to other groupings such as arains, sheikhs etc. So, unless you have uncovered startling new evidence which suggests that 90% of Punjabi muslims stayed indoors listening to the radio whilst the tiny 10% that were jatts went out and did all the killing...can we assume it was a rant against 'jatts' ?

Again, in another post of mine I did mention how Indians repeatedly sidetrack us from the fight for freedom by manipulating us to fight their dirty way by proxy against the Pakistani muslims. You seem to be doing just that by mentioning at least a couple of times the fact that 300,000 Sikhs were killed by muslims during partition. But I'd like to ask you, where does the fact that more Muslims were killed than the total number of Sikhs and Hindus added together fit into all this ? Do they not count as human lives ?

Anyways bruvs, I think you'll be a wlcome addition to this forum coz you do make some very good points also. But...I want you to know that I'm not the only one thats noticed how the majority of your messages do contain an anti-jatt underbelly. You keep going on about 'the incident in Vienna' and at one point you even gave the game away by referring to the great Bhagat Ravidass as a 'Guru'.

All in all though, I find your message to be exactly the same message that Indians wish to give to Sikhs, i.e...'everything's fine' 'sure things were bad in 1984 but everything's been fine since then'.

So...let me leave you with this question, seeing how in your message you stated that we don't need freedom because they haven't committed any atrocities against us for years now. My question is....How many times would a mad man have to attack your child with a hammer before you demand justice ? As long as he only attacked once and hasn't done it since do you become best friends with him and want to stay by his side ?