Why Are So Many Moderate Sikhs Against Khalistan

[Only five]

This veer above is clearly a Gursikh and tries to follow Sikhi to a T. However, as a Gursikh, he will also know that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj did not only teach about principles... in this case the principle being that oppression should be fought against even if great sacrifices must be made, including life, in order to achieve this. He will also know that Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj taught about practicality as well. When asked to show miracles in the Mughal court, Guru ji, drew his sword and said that the greatest miracle is the sword (kirpan) itself, because this is the symbol of direct action, by which, ones destiny can be controlled and changed... Kings can be overthrown and Governments can be changed. Guru ji showed practicality, in that will/intention alone does not suffice, and that the necessary tools or mechanisms are required to bring about change.

The above veer, who doesnt like to read textbooks, but I am sure is aware of the life Guru Gobind Singh ji, will be aware of the infinite so called 'worldly qualities' of Guru ji. He was a great General, musician, poet, diplomat, politican, saint, historian etc etc.

Are you telling me that if I was a better Gursikh, did more bhagti and listen to Bhindranwala's speeches that I would be more inclined to follow the first option?

If i hurt your feelings veerji, I'm sorry. I'm glad i mentioned the witch hunt part.....i just new this veera would go on witch hunts (it's textbook teaching 101). When knowledge on a certain topic is limited then people create an either-or situation to limit others thinking. Many people tried to put Bhai Kanhaiya ji in an either-or situation, but Bhai Sahib took the third path, Guru Sahib's way to victory. I should have been more specific on who i was addressing with my first post on this topic. So here it is again:

These arguments about Khalistan won't have an army to defend itself and we have no leaders....is complete nonsense. To veers and sisters who pose such questions. Did you ever ask how Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj took care of you in your mother's womb. The fire of maya was there too (don't believe me...read Sri Anand Sahib), but i never hear any of you asking how Maharaj protected you from the fire of maya in your mother's womb. You walk around with your blind folds on....asking dead bodies to help you. Don't be diluded you are in another womb and Maharaj is taking care of everything. Satguru has given us instruction on what to do.....why cry now......did you cry in your mother's womb?

[Only five]

In Sikhi what is meant by victory is told by these awesome Kavishris. Please Singho read Zafarnama and then the Swaiyve to understand how Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj describes victory. If we don't know what victory is in Gurmat then how can we speak of success or how to get this success?

[11Gurus1Jot]

Let me make this clear- Ek0sikh didn't say this. but this is the general opinion these days except few hardliners who reiterate demand for khalistan.

many more to come......

Ek0sikh, you say that this is a general opinion where as these are facts and figures I have read from many educated people, so yes they are my opinion. I don't suppose I can ask you how many Sikh Men, Women and Children you think we were raped, totured, disappeared and killed by the indian authorities in the 80s and 90s. I think, after discoveries by Jaswant Singh Khalra which was just for one area in a short space of time, it's close to .25 million. And I think that those Sikhs were raped, tortured, disappeared by the Indain Authorities, or the Indian Authorities Black cats and third agency dressed up a Sikhs. A Khalistani of any hue would not kill Sikhs!

So are you prepared to give your 'opinion' or not ?? i.e are you prepared to say, in your opinion, from what you have read, how many Sikhs you think were raped, tortured, disappeared and murdered by the Indain Authorities, including the Indian Authorities' Black cats and third agency dressed up a Sikhs? I just want a number from you nothing more, so, for example, you could believe 200 Hindus were killed by Sikhs, 400 Hindus were killed by the Indian Authorities, and 2000 Siksh were killed by Sikhs, and 250,000 Sikhs were killed by the indian Authorities, and their Police, Army, Black Cats, and third agency. Question A - Just give the number of Sikhs you believe were killed by the Indian Authorities!

Remember one thing, Sikhs we being killed by the Indian Authorities first i.e. 1978 to 1984 so Question B- How long did you expect the Sikhs not to fight back for? How long?

Question A - Just need a number of Sikhs, you think, were killed by Indian Authorities in the 80s & 90s?

Question B - Just need the number of years, you think, the Sikhs should not have fought back?

[chatanga]

many more to come......

these all have some sort of validity, but these same difficulties have been overcome by many many nations around the world. We are no different.

[West London Singh]

I've said it before I'll say it again. Freedom...is a universal right. The desire to be free is common to all mankind. Only a Sikh that has brain deformities would want his nation to be illegaly part of a country that tricked them into being part of that nation in 1947 by telling blatant lies and since then has murdered a quarter of a million of them and spits on them, rapes them, demoralises them, subdues them, enslaves them and ..ulmitately destroys them.

The problem, as I stated many times before, is that we are not dealing with a civilised free country. Just think, if England was as 'democratic' as India there would hard;y be a Scotsman and a Welshman alive today. In democracies, Scotsman and Welshman are allowed to hope for a free independent nation....They're allowed to think about an independent nation.....They're allowed to talk about an independent nation.....They're allowed to lobby for an independent nation....They're allowed to stand in elections on that platform and win as the candidate wanting indpendence. If England was a 'democracy' like India, James Bond (Sean Connery) would have been picked up the police years ago, hung upside down and tortured to death. Alex Salmon, the leader of the Scottish Assembly, would have been arrested, sentenced to death, taken to the capital and hung.

So....lets rmember this point, which ties in with my earlier points about the name of our nation. For the last 2 weeks, i have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that the Indians (army and police) have been examining every you tube and tv footage of the protests in Punjab. They have been identiofying each person that publicly uttered 'khalistan zindabad' and they have been hunting them down and arresting them.

I've always felt that this issue of 'semantics' is a real one. You just don't hear the word 'khalistan' coming from the mouths of Sikhs enough for it to become a reality. Freedom movements and revolutions need momentum. I've always said that the term khalistan is the wrong one to use for our freedom. One reason, that I've already mentioned, is that it brings almost instant arrest and by default torture. Another reason, which I mentioned in a previous message, is that by using the term 'khalistan' we are failing to tap into the psyche of the common man and woman in Punjab. The common man and woman in Punjab, whilst not particularly religious, has a raging fire of Punjab pride burning in his or her belly. In order for the freedom movement to gain momentum, we need to tap into that raging fire. The mantra in Punjab and abroad, should not be 'Khalistan Khalistan'. It should be 'PUNJAB' 'PUNJAB' 'PUNJAB'. Add in prefixes to 'Punjab' you want. But...our independent nation should be called 'Punjab'. Why ? Because thats exactly what it is. It will be the area which today is called the state of Punjab. The language of the country will be Punjabi. The people of the country are called Punjabis. It does exactly what it says on the tin : Punjab.

Who's the police and army gonna hunt and arrest when 99.9% of the population are publicly shouting Punjab mera des ?

Like I said...when we state the term 'Khalistan' it conjures up images into peoples heads of a fantasy land. A fantasy land thats never been before so why should it be now. An independent 'Punjab' nation, on the other hand, has historical fact behind it. It was before and so why should it not be again ? It has legitimacy behind it. It makes it harder for our enemies to dismiss it as 'fantasy talk'.

We Sikhs have had the same poor tactics for decades now. All we're achieving is death and slavery. We need to evaluate our tactics.

Lets learn from the UK students last year. These beer swilling party animals sat down and actually analysed the crown control tactics used by Scotland Yard. The little students outsmarted Scotland Yard with good organisation and awareness of tactics. This is a problem we Sikhs have always had. Lets take the recent demonstrations in Punjab for example. In any other demo and police charge I have seen on the news from around the world, whenever a protestor is grabbed by a policeman, the protestors always rush in en masse and free their comrade. This is the common feature everywhere on earth except.........Punjab. Fat policemen with nothing more than a stick were grabbing hold of Sikhs.....but the other Sikhs were running away. Surely, with a bit of planning and tactics, the Sikhs of Punjab can always agree to never abandon a fellow Sikh. Not only would it free their fellow sikh but it ensures that the Punjab police would always be too scared of grabbing a sikh in the first place.

Anyway, in conclusion, we need to re-evaluate our tactics. Right now, we need to tap into the emotions of the common man and woman in Punjab. That common man and woman, has a burning love of a free Punjab burning in their belly. Up untill now we've done nothing to keep that fire burning...because we've kept talk on a mystical concept that means nothing to their psyche : Khalistan.

Lets get some momentum going by keeping talk on the demand for freedom for 'Punjab'. A nation called 'Punjab'.

This battle for freedom will be won and lost over the media. Their size, their tanks and missiles mean nothing in this battle. The battle will be won by those who can best manipulate the media. We have no exuse to lose this battle.

From now on NEVER EVER fall into the Indian trap of seeing the Pakistanis and muslims as our enemies. All of us here know that the reason we have made so little dents into the Indian machine over the last few years is because the Indians have cleverly manipulated us to fight their dirty war by proxy against the pakistanis. Lets get this straight...The pakistanis never were our enemies and never will be our enemies. We Sikhs need to be on very friendly terms with the enemies of our enemy. i.e.....Pakistan and China. Be on friendly terms with the nations that would love to see India implode from within.

Ever heard of the 'Great Game' ? History tells it as the great game of polictics....and political manouvering. It was played between Russia, France and Britian. But guess who held the best cards in this great game ? Us. The Sikhs of Punjab. The object of the great game was to see who could gain control of the natural riches of persia. Russia, France and Britain realised that nobody could get a foothold without the support of the Sikhs. Great men from the 3 nations then would visit the Sikhs in Punjab and try and buy favours. The Sikhs would cleverly play with the minds of all 3 nations.

We Sikhs have proven ourselves historicaly of being able to play this game of media and diplomacy. We have before and we will again.

A free PUNJAB !!

[pedrorizzo]

In Sikhi what is meant by victory is told by these awesome Kavishris. Please Singho read Zafarnama and then the Swaiyve to understand how Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj describes victory. If we don't know what victory is in Gurmat then how can we speak of success or how to get this success?

Very nice kaveeshri. However, does not explain how to obtain khalsa raj. Please explain how you think victory is defined in Gurmat and explain how that can be used as a strategy for Sikhs to obtain their own homeland, since that is how success is defined in the context that we are talking about veer ji.

[11Gurus1Jot]

West London Singh seems to be relying on facts and figures (fact and truth), hard to deny what he points out!

Never minde Moderate SIkhs, even moderate non-Sikhs from the west seem to agree with West London Singh !!

Please see the extract below written by White Westerners!

[indent]The scenario for a disappearance case is familiar. Plain-clothed police officers or members of the paramilitary forces stop a man in the street (disappearance victims are almost always young men who are suspected of being members or having support for one of India's many armed militant groups), or they may pick him up from his place of work or his home. Often the abduction is done at night, but the disregard for the law and the lack of political will to eradicate these practices means the security forces are equally protected if the abduction takes place in broad daylight. ... Many cases of disappearances result in death, disfigured bodies found in canals, by railway tracks and roadsides are testimony to the cover-up of state murder that is so much a part of everyday life in some parts of India. If suspicion of the killing is successfully laid at the feet of the police, it is often denied or invalidated by one of two improbable excuses; that whilst trying to escape he was shot or that he died in an encounter. (Khalsa Human Rights, "'Disappearances' in Punjab".)[/indent]

According to Joyce Pettigrew, "many young people killed have not been engaged in armed combat. They have been ordinary boys who have disappeared on an errand for their parents, visiting relatives, or while working in their fields, or who have been picked up from their own or their in-laws' home. ... Disappearances occurred primarily in the under-thirty age group. Some villages had lost more than forty young men. Sursinghwala in Amritsar district had lost seventy young men. Buttar Kalan, in Gurdaspur district, lost twenty. Each village has not kept a separate account of its losses. Erring on the conservative side ... it is highly probable that most villages in the Amritsar district would have lost on average ten young men." (Pettigrew, "Parents and Their Children in Situations of Terror: Disappearances and Special Police Activity in Punjab," in Jeffrey A. Sluka, ed., Death Squad: The Anthropology of State Terror [university of Pennsylvania Press, 2000], p. 211.)

Patricia Gossman cites the comments of an Indian police officer who claimed that when armed conflict broke out between Sikh militants and Indian security forces in the early 1980s, "a profile was developed of who was considered to be antigovernment and pro-Khalistan. Based on that profile, young Sikh men between the ages of 18 and 40, who have long beards and wear turbans, are considered to be pro-Khalistan. Whenever the police receive a report from an informant or any other individual that Sikh militants have visited the home of a Sikh family, the police are dispatched to raid the home of that family. Pursuant to that raid, any Sikh male who fits the profile described above is arrested." (Gossman, "India's Secret Armies," in in Bruce B. Campbell and Arthur D. Brenner, Death Squads in Global Perspective: Murder with Deniability [st. Martin's Press, 2000], pp. 266-67.)

The failure to turn up a sufficient quantity of young men for persecution and execution sometimes leads to the detention of female relatives. Though they are rarely killed, rape is common. "When mothers and sisters have been held in custody by the police, their ultimate fate unknown, not all fathers and brothers have been able to cope with the threat of what might happen to them and to remain underground to fight. As one old lady from Sabrawan village, Amritsar district, told me, referring to the many abductions of young girls by the police, 'In every village and each house there is sadness.' Hence, to protect their sisters or indeed some other family member, some young militants and their sympathizers have compromised and become informers." (Pettigrew, "Parents and Their Children," pp. 211, 219.)

[Sherdil]

I've been trying to read all of the posts. Everyone is making good points, but what about the logistics? How do we go about obtaining Khalistan?

Some members outlined the borders of Khalistan. I think more thought should be given towards the non-Sikhs that live within those borders. I don't think non-Sikhs want their homes to end up in Khalistan.

Would there be an armed struggle? India has tanks and aircraft. How do we fight against that?

I don't think a peaceful movement would work either. Peaceful movements only work in civilized societies. The British didn't abduct Gandhi and kill him in a false encounter.

I think the only way to create Khalistan is to do more parchaar. Spread our faith. The more people that embrace Sikhi, the better. There is no reason why all of India can't become Khalistan. I've said this before, and someone very wise stated that Hindustan cannot become Khalistan overnight. I agree. It will be a long battle, but I think it is the most effective way. More Sikhs means more Sikhs in government. Instead of fighting the government, we can become the government. More missionary schools and programs are needed, but you don't have to be a missionary. You can talk about Sikhi with anyone you meet. Whether it is at a bus stop, at work, or whatever.

52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singh

# 27) "Sutantar Vicharna. Raaj Kaaj dian kamaan tae doosrae mutaa dia purshaan noo huk nahi daenaa".

- Rule independently. In the affairs of government, do not give people of other religions authority / power.

[californiasardar1]

I've said it before I'll say it again. Freedom...is a universal right. The desire to be free is common to all mankind. Only a Sikh that has brain deformities would want his nation to be illegaly part of a country that tricked them into being part of that nation in 1947 by telling blatant lies and since then has murdered a quarter of a million of them and spits on them, rapes them, demoralises them, subdues them, enslaves them and ..ulmitately destroys them.

The problem, as I stated many times before, is that we are not dealing with a civilised free country. Just think, if England was as 'democratic' as India there would hard;y be a Scotsman and a Welshman alive today. In democracies, Scotsman and Welshman are allowed to hope for a free independent nation....They're allowed to think about an independent nation.....They're allowed to talk about an independent nation.....They're allowed to lobby for an independent nation....They're allowed to stand in elections on that platform and win as the candidate wanting indpendence. If England was a 'democracy' like India, James Bond (Sean Connery) would have been picked up the police years ago, hung upside down and tortured to death. Alex Salmon, the leader of the Scottish Assembly, would have been arrested, sentenced to death, taken to the capital and hung.

So....lets rmember this point, which ties in with my earlier points about the name of our nation. For the last 2 weeks, i have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that the Indians (army and police) have been examining every you tube and tv footage of the protests in Punjab. They have been identiofying each person that publicly uttered 'khalistan zindabad' and they have been hunting them down and arresting them.

I've always felt that this issue of 'semantics' is a real one. You just don't hear the word 'khalistan' coming from the mouths of Sikhs enough for it to become a reality. Freedom movements and revolutions need momentum. I've always said that the term khalistan is the wrong one to use for our freedom. One reason, that I've already mentioned, is that it brings almost instant arrest and by default torture. Another reason, which I mentioned in a previous message, is that by using the term 'khalistan' we are failing to tap into the psyche of the common man and woman in Punjab. The common man and woman in Punjab, whilst not particularly religious, has a raging fire of Punjab pride burning in his or her belly. In order for the freedom movement to gain momentum, we need to tap into that raging fire. The mantra in Punjab and abroad, should not be 'Khalistan Khalistan'. It should be 'PUNJAB' 'PUNJAB' 'PUNJAB'. Add in prefixes to 'Punjab' you want. But...our independent nation should be called 'Punjab'. Why ? Because thats exactly what it is. It will be the area which today is called the state of Punjab. The language of the country will be Punjabi. The people of the country are called Punjabis. It does exactly what it says on the tin : Punjab.

Who's the police and army gonna hunt and arrest when 99.9% of the population are publicly shouting Punjab mera des ?

Like I said...when we state the term 'Khalistan' it conjures up images into peoples heads of a fantasy land. A fantasy land thats never been before so why should it be now. An independent 'Punjab' nation, on the other hand, has historical fact behind it. It was before and so why should it not be again ? It has legitimacy behind it. It makes it harder for our enemies to dismiss it as 'fantasy talk'.

We Sikhs have had the same poor tactics for decades now. All we're achieving is death and slavery. We need to evaluate our tactics.

Lets learn from the UK students last year. These beer swilling party animals sat down and actually analysed the crown control tactics used by Scotland Yard. The little students outsmarted Scotland Yard with good organisation and awareness of tactics. This is a problem we Sikhs have always had. Lets take the recent demonstrations in Punjab for example. In any other demo and police charge I have seen on the news from around the world, whenever a protestor is grabbed by a policeman, the protestors always rush in en masse and free their comrade. This is the common feature everywhere on earth except.........Punjab. Fat policemen with nothing more than a stick were grabbing hold of Sikhs.....but the other Sikhs were running away. Surely, with a bit of planning and tactics, the Sikhs of Punjab can always agree to never abandon a fellow Sikh. Not only would it free their fellow sikh but it ensures that the Punjab police would always be too scared of grabbing a sikh in the first place.

Anyway, in conclusion, we need to re-evaluate our tactics. Right now, we need to tap into the emotions of the common man and woman in Punjab. That common man and woman, has a burning love of a free Punjab burning in their belly. Up untill now we've done nothing to keep that fire burning...because we've kept talk on a mystical concept that means nothing to their psyche : Khalistan.

Lets get some momentum going by keeping talk on the demand for freedom for 'Punjab'. A nation called 'Punjab'.

This battle for freedom will be won and lost over the media. Their size, their tanks and missiles mean nothing in this battle. The battle will be won by those who can best manipulate the media. We have no exuse to lose this battle.

From now on NEVER EVER fall into the Indian trap of seeing the Pakistanis and muslims as our enemies. All of us here know that the reason we have made so little dents into the Indian machine over the last few years is because the Indians have cleverly manipulated us to fight their dirty war by proxy against the pakistanis. Lets get this straight...The pakistanis never were our enemies and never will be our enemies. We Sikhs need to be on very friendly terms with the enemies of our enemy. i.e.....Pakistan and China. Be on friendly terms with the nations that would love to see India implode from within.

Ever heard of the 'Great Game' ? History tells it as the great game of polictics....and political manouvering. It was played between Russia, France and Britian. But guess who held the best cards in this great game ? Us. The Sikhs of Punjab. The object of the great game was to see who could gain control of the natural riches of persia. Russia, France and Britain realised that nobody could get a foothold without the support of the Sikhs. Great men from the 3 nations then would visit the Sikhs in Punjab and try and buy favours. The Sikhs would cleverly play with the minds of all 3 nations.

We Sikhs have proven ourselves historicaly of being able to play this game of media and diplomacy. We have before and we will again.

A free PUNJAB !!

I think you make a great point about the need to galvanize support from the common man and woman in Punjab, and you also rightly point out the problem with the term "Khalistan" and how it has a stigma attached to it.

However, this whole notion that there could be a broader Punjabi movement for a separate Punjab nation that is not synonymous with the desire for a sovereign Sikh state (call it "Punjab" or "Azad Punjab" or "Khalistan" or whatever) is a pipe dream.

Hindu Punjabis are never going to want an independent Punjab. The only Punjabis left wanting an independent Punjab will be Sikhs. So however anyone chooses to define and label the movement, it will be seen as a Sikh movement for an independent Sikh state.

If you don't believe me, check what happened in the 1960s when the Sikh leadership sought to divide Punjab along linguistic (rather than religious) lines. Did the Hindu Punjabis step forward and say "hell yeah, we're Punjabi and we want a separate state where our language is preserved"? No. They chose to identify themselves as native Hindi speakers even though they spoke Punjabi. If Hindu Punjabis could not be rallied by Punjabi nationalism then, they certainly are not going to be rallied by Punjabi nationalism now given what has transpired in the last 35 years.

The possibility that there could have been a movement for an independent Punjab where being Punjabi (rather than belonging to any specific religion) formed the basis for a nation came and went in 1947. Then, a state of Punjab could have been formed where no religion formed a majority (if the boundaries were drawn right, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus would each have been less than 50%). Now, given the Sikh majority of what remains of Punjab, asking for an independent Punjab means asking for an independent Sikh state.

By the way, I just want to point out that an independent Punjab has some historical basis, but what is now the Indian state of Punjab was never its own nation. Remember, Ranjit Singh's empire was only northwest of the Sutlej River (in other words, it didn't include Malwa). A majority of what is now Indian Punjab was either ruled directly by the British, or was part of one of several semi-autonomous Sikh princely states. Before then, it was mostly controlled by the Sikh misls, but it was not united as one nation.

Anyway, I think you make some great points about how we should handle things as a community (i.e. dealing with police, etc.)

[californiasardar1]

I think the only way to create Khalistan is to do more parchaar. Spread our faith. The more people that embrace Sikhi, the better. There is no reason why all of India can't become Khalistan. I've said this before, and someone very wise stated that Hindustan cannot become Khalistan overnight. I agree. It will be a long battle, but I think it is the most effective way. More Sikhs means more Sikhs in government. Instead of fighting the government, we can become the government. More missionary schools and programs are needed, but you don't have to be a missionary. You can talk about Sikhi with anyone you meet. Whether it is at a bus stop, at work, or whatever.

This is a great point. We have been worse than probably any other major religion when it comes to spreading our faith. Aside from a few hundred White Sikhs in America, Sikhi is basically restricted to people of Punjabi origin. And when you consider that 60-70% of those are jatt farmers, you get an idea of just how narrow the Sikh base is.

Part of the problem is with our historical prejudice. We should have reached out to non-Punjabi Indians and so-called "low caste" people. But we didn't. And as a result, Sikhs aren't a religious group, but rather an ethno-religious group.

The sad thing is, the "ethnic identity" aspect of Sikhi might be the only thing keeping it alive in Punjab. Most Sikhs see being Sikh almost as belonging to a certain ethnic group rather than a certain religion. So non-religious Sikhs are still nominally in the Sikh fold.