Christmas trees in houses of Sikhs

[Singh559]

I'm willing to change my views, but I don't see as the choice of putting a tree up or not anywhere CLOSE to being important as addressing both sides of the argument and educating myself. I won't do something or not do something just because someone says so unless it conflicts with my Sikhi.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

Quotation:

"Many Americans celebrate both Christmas and Xmas. Others celebrate one or the other. And some of us celebrate holidays that, although unconnected with the [winter] solstice, occur near it: Ramadan, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa." John Silber 1

Silber's statement was correct when he wrote it in the year 2000. However, Islam follows a lunar calendar. Its holy days thus move earlier each year by about 11 days. Thus, by 2010, the first day of Ramadan has moved back to August.

Overview:

Some have traced the Christmas tree back at least as far as the Prophet Jeremiah who wrote the book Jeremiah in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).

Opposition to the Christmas tree was intense in past centuries. The early Christian Church in the third century CE strictly prohibited the decoration of their houses with evergreen boughs. The decorated Christmas tree only caught on in the mid-19th century.

Modern-day opposition continues: some condemn the Christmas tree because they believe that the custom of cutting down a tree, erecting it in the home and decorating it is a Pagan custom. 1

For many people today, it is primarily as a secular symbol of hope for the New Year and the future return of warmth to the earth. Its future is assured in spite of opposition.

Objections to the Christmas Tree:

In the past, there have been many objections to Christmas trees:

The Prophet Jeremiah condemned as Pagan the ancient Middle Eastern practice of cutting down trees, bringing them into the home and decorating them. Of course, these were not really Christmas trees, because Jesus was not born until centuries later, and the use of Christmas trees was not introduced for many centuries after his birth. Apparently, in Jeremiah's time the "heathen" would cut down trees, carve or decorate them in the form of a god or goddess, and overlay it with precious metals. Some Christians currently feel that this Pagan practice was similar enough to our present use of Christmas trees that this passage from Jeremiah can be used to condemn both:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (King James Version).

In Europe, Pagans in the past did not cut down whole evergreen trees, bring them into their homes and decorate them. That would have been far too destructive of nature. But during the Roman celebration of the feast of Saturnalia, Pagans did decorate their houses with clippings of evergreen shrubs. They also decorated living trees with bits of metal and replicas of their God, Bacchus.

Tertullian (circa 160 - 230), an early Christian leader and a prolific writer, complained that too many fellow-Christians had copied the Pagan practice of adorning their houses with lamps and with wreathes of laurel at Christmas time. 8,9,10,11

The English Puritans condemned a number of customs associated with Christmas, such as the use of the Yule log, holly, mistletoe, etc. Oliver Cromwell preached against "the heathen traditions" of Christmas carols, decorated trees and any joyful expression that desecrated "that sacred event." 2,4

In America, the Pilgrim's second governor, William Bradford, a Calvanist, tried hard to stamp out all "pagan mockery" at Christmas time. 4 Christmas trees were not used by Puritans in colonial times. However, if they were, they would certainly have been forbidden.

In 1851, Pastor Henry Schwan of Cleveland OH appears to have been the person responsible for decorating the first Christmas tree in an American church. His parishioners condemned the idea as a Pagan practice; some even threatened the pastor with harm. But objections soon dissipated. 2

Even today, the complaints continue:

At Christmas 2000, the city manager of Eugene OR ordered that Christmas trees could not be erected on city properties because he considered them Christian religious symbols. He felt that their presence would violate the principle of church and state. 1 This is just one of countless conflicts that have surfaced at Christmas time over religious and quasi-religious observances.

A few fundamentalist Christian groups oppose Christmas trees and even the celebration of Christmas for their members. This includes the Jehovah's Witnesses and, until recently, the Worldwide Church of God. Part of the opposition is because the custom of decorated trees originated among Pagans. They also oppose trees because of a literal interpretation of the quotation from Jeremiah.

[Singh559]

This much debate over a Christmas tree?! Jesus!! (pun intended)

In the last week with Maharaj's kirpa i got to spend a few days in the company of a true Brahmgiani. One Gursikh who we visited had a Christmas tree in his living room, they asked laughingly what it is and a sevadaar explained the story about St.Nicholas and how he did seva of giving presents to the poor children as well as how its linked to Jesus' birthday. They also said that its just something people do here. Brahmgiani Ji just nodded and said "teek a". :D

I'll should also mention it wasnt the only Gursikh household which had a tree.

People seriously need to chill out. Next you'll be saying Christmas trees are an RSS conspiracy.

Playing the devil's advocate the GurSikh didn't explain the reason for the tree if Saint Nicholas gave presents to the poor.

The Brahmgiani Sant probably thought it wasn't important enough to get into an argument about like mooraks like me do all the time haha

It's important to be a kattard Sikh who is steadfast in his or her own beliefs, but at the same time you have a big responsibility to not come off as being spewing empty dogma to others. You have to be very logical and leveled in how you present your views otherwise the other person judges. It's not just the person who judge's fault, but also the person who sends those signals.

The reason I say this is because over time if Sikhs aren't pakka (like they have been for the most part until now) what is stopping us from turning into something like the modern diluted version of Christianity?

[Singh559]

A very powerful example relating to Sikhs is this:

"pehla Gurdware kache hunde si, te sikh pakke. Hun Gurdware pakke hogaye te sikh kachay"

There are countless first hand accounts that show what original Gurudwaras were - they were dharamsalas like others mentioned and had no portraits or pictures of any form. It was simple in architecture as the main focus was Guru Di Bani.

[MrDoaba]

Playing the devil's advocate the GurSikh didn't explain the reason for the tree if Saint Nicholas gave presents to the poor.

The Brahmgiani Sant probably thought it wasn't important enough to get into an argument about like mooraks like me do all the time haha

He said something about how people give eachother presents and put them under the tree and how it links to St.Nicholas.

Anyway it doesnt matter, my point was it was made clear to Brahmgiani Ji that it has nothing to do with Sikhi and Jesus was mentioned but it still didnt seem to be a problem.

I always knew people from Malwa were moorakhs!! Haha!! :poke:

[Singh559]

He said something about how people give eachother presents and put them under the tree and how it links to St.Nicholas.

Anyway it doesnt matter, my point was it was made clear to Brahmgiani Ji that it has nothing to do with Sikhi and Jesus was mentioned but it still didnt seem to be a problem.

I always knew people from Malwa were moorakhs!! Haha!! :poke:

I'm a moorakh, but I might as well be a logical moorakh haha.

That still doesn't justify putting a tree in your house to commemorate St. Nichaloas, I'm not sure how else to explain it.

How about this. Bruce Wayne helps people in batmobiles - 200 years time everyone will get batmobiles and put it in their living rooms and put presents in it on Batmanmas.

See what I'm getting at? Kind of lost the plot/false ritualism.

The only thing I was arguing is that decorating your house just for the sake of decorating it should be fine. Justifying it with the culture/holiday/history/religion doesn't cut it for me.

[MrDoaba]

Hmmm tuadi gall vi say ah. A Christmas tree isnt an exclusively Christian symbol now anyway. Im not gonna bother getting into a deep disscusion over Christmas trees, ive already put mine up, it looks nice and i like it, ive seen some Chardi Kala Gursikhs with Christmas trees and ive heard what a Brahmgiani said about them so thats it for me. When its time to put it up again i will do.

Merry Christmas!! Saari sangatan nu Bhagat Jesus Ji de janam din te boht boht Vadhaian!! :D

[Singh559]

Hmmm tuadi gall vi say ah. A Christmas tree isnt an exclusively Christian symbol now anyway. Im not gonna bother getting into a deep disscusion over Christmas trees, ive already put mine up, ive seen some Chardi Kala Gursikhs with Christmas trees and ive heard what a Brahmgiani said about them so thats it for me.

Merry Christmas!! Saari sangatan nu Bhagat Jesus Ji de janam din te boht boht Vadhaian!! :D

Dhan Dhan Bhagat Jesus Ji

[VanHelsingh]

Dhan Dhan Bhagat Jesus Ji

I wonder if Jesus is in Sachkhand...

*sharply exits forum, finds the nearest bunker and sits back as the fireworks begin...*

[Wingz23]

Hmmm tuadi gall vi say ah. A Christmas tree isnt an exclusively Christian symbol now anyway. Im not gonna bother getting into a deep disscusion over Christmas trees, ive already put mine up, it looks nice and i like it, ive seen some Chardi Kala Gursikhs with Christmas trees and ive heard what a Brahmgiani said about them so thats it for me. When its time to put it up again i will do.

Merry Christmas!! Saari sangatan nu Bhagat Jesus Ji de janam din te boht boht Vadhaian!! :D

I LOVE THE LAST BIT :d

[Wingz23]

this is by far my favorite post, thankyou for whoever uploaded it :D