Why was Jathedar Baba Sahib Singh ji Kicked Out?

[GurjantGnostic]

And by intoxicated they probably meant stoned which makes it even more luaghable.

Yeah these melloow dudes came and chilled, and when we sent the women after them, because we know they won't hurt women, and our men are cowards, they left.

Oh but! They did something bad to Shabad Guru, their Guru, that they wouldn't do to any people? ? ?

Uh huh. 

[GurjantGnostic]

The Nihang Jathas seem to have been heavily heavily murdered, maligned, and infiltrated. We know sgpc isn't beholden to Sikhs. Have the same attempts been successful against the Dals? Yes, but to what degree. 

I respect all the Dals, but am worried about and for them. 

Hazur Sahib has done an exemplary job of withstanding all the assaults, these seeds of subversion. 

[GurjantGnostic]

As an ignorant outsider my perspective isn't the best. @shastarSingh @ipledgeblue @dharamyudh @Jai Tegang! And others probably have better information. 

[dharamyudh]

On 7/3/2021 at 7:19 PM, GurjantGnostic said:

The Nihang Jathas seem to have been heavily heavily murdered, maligned, and infiltrated. We know sgpc isn't beholden to Sikhs. Have the same attempts been successful against the Dals? Yes, but to what degree. 

I respect all the Dals, but am worried about and for them. 

Hazur Sahib has done an exemplary job of withstanding all the assaults, these seeds of subversion. 

Though I am not affiliated with any dals, I can only speak from an outsider perspective as well. It really shows you how bad the situation looks within the Dals. However, I don't think you're far off with your observation. It is quite clear that the Budha Dal, ever since the passing of Baba Santa Singh Ji, has fallen victim to the same negative influences that impact most of our panth. Most of this resulted in the internal turmoil we see today. There seems to be two main rivaling factions within the Budha Dal itself, a rivalry that revolves around leadership. 

 

I wrote a draft trying to summarize the two factions, however, I'm not even going to attempt to post it. But, there are multiple posts that go into it though. From what I seen, most Nihangs believe Baba Surjit Singh Ji as the rightful Jathedar of Budha Dal. All in all, these factions go at it. You can see news reports of Nihangs shooting each other in the past. I believe Baba Surjit Singh Ji's leadership line currently rests with Jathedar Mann Singh Ji. Here are some posts that describe this whole situation: 

 

https://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/18648-death-of-the-nihangs/

 

 

[dharamyudh]

Should the Nihangs be reinstated into the Akal Takht? The current Nihangs are definitely not the Nihangs of the past, there are diamonds, but it's not looking good in regards to fighting over leadership. We all see the inhouse fighting going on alongside the influence of political parties. I was recently watching this podcast with Nidar Singh on there (controversial guy I get it), but he mentions an instance when he was younger where he asks his master permission to join the chakravati Nihangs in the camps and his ustaad straight up said "Go ahead and join them if you wanna lose your Sikhi." Ultimately, everything is under the hands of the SGPC and the political parties of Panjab. For instance, I'll show you how gullible and simple minded Sikhs are. Remember when the Sarbat Khalsa happened and they elected Bhai Jagtar Singh Ji Hawara as the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht? We all got happy because he is a solid Singh of the Guru. However, let's look at this deeper. The reason why they picked Jathedar Ji is because they knew how gullible and simple we are! They realize that the Indian government is probably never going to let him out so as a result, THEY can continue to put their own guys in and act as Jathedar on behalf of Bhai Jagtar Singh Ji Hawara. We as Sikhs continue to just blindly accept this. 

[chatanga1]

On 5/14/2020 at 8:02 PM, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

I am confused, this is a underrated event in history where Jathedar Baba Sahib Singh ji Kaladhari was kicked out of Sri Akal Thakt by SGPC, there are so many accounts of it.He is said to have been ousted with Kartar Singh Chibbar and SGPC using bibian to abuse him and he is said to have been hurt badly. The SGPC have a totally different account of them being intoxicated and taking over Akal Thakt even other Nihang jathedbanian joining in. Who were the baddies? And is it true Baba Sahib Singh Ji support shastar puja and that's why there were differences between him and SGPC? What contributions did nihangs actually make during british raj as he said to be patriotized by nihangs saying he fought for right of sikhs to wear kirpans but I thought those were the babbar akalis? Are these nihangs just still salty about what happened nearly 100 years ago? Should they be reinstated on the Akal Thakt?

 

Let's look at WHY the SIngh Sabha wanted to take over Sri Akal Bunga first.

 

IN the 1920s when 2nd Singh Sabha Lehar started, low caste people, esp Churre and Chamars, were NOT allowed to enter the Parikarma of Darbar Sahib because of their caste. The management (pre SGPC) were enforcing this. Low castes had to do namishkar from the steps and go back.

 

What kind of nonsense is this in the holiest place in the world?

 

The Singh Sabha wanted to end this as they did an enormous amount of parchar amongst low castes and brought thousands into Sikhi. However the British backed management of Darbar Sahib would not allow them in. Guess who was either supporting the management, or at the very least allowing it to happen? The same Nihangs you are talking about.

 

How on earth is this Gurmat? By those whoare supposed to be the custodians of Sikhi?

 

When the Singh Sabha had wrested control of Darbar Sahib from the British stooges, they moved to the next important shrine in the complex - Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

 

You have to ask yourself, why did the nihangs let such manmat happen in there.

 

 

On 4/15/2021 at 5:40 PM, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

 

so bhai sahib, you agree with the nihang singh side of this?

 

this part of history is confusing, cuz it would villainize either the Babbar Akalis or the diminish the honour of Shrimoni Akali Panth Buddha Dal and I certainly do not want to open old wounds of bad blood 

 

 

The key is to be on the side of Gurmat, not nihang or singh sabha.

 

Also you are confusing Babbar Akalis with Nihangs. They are not the same.

 

 

On 4/20/2021 at 5:40 PM, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

how come is it that nihang history during the british raj so incoherent when at one point they were at the point of extinction after battle of sabraon and most emigrated to sri hazur sahib but the next they were in control of sri akal thakt and fighting for sikh rights to bear arms (same goes for sgpc/singh sabha/gurudwara sudar lehar that is also very polarizing from different accounts of history) 
 

 

The Nihangs were not on the point of extinction. At this time, the British passed an order to shoot Nihangs on sight in Panjab, but it was repealed soon after. When this order came about most Chakarvarti Nihangs left Panjab for safer confines, but not ALL and certainly not those in their deras or bungas.

 

On 4/20/2021 at 7:14 PM, intrigued said:

Idk anything on shastr pooja is it right to do? Also what is it?

 

Worhsip of weapons. It is mentioned in old Sikh texts and is still practiced by Dal Panth. If I'm not mistaken the shastar pooja day falls one day after Diwali.

 

On 4/20/2021 at 7:19 PM, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

and any thoughts on baba binod singh ji and do you think he committed treason at the battle of gurdas nangal or is this mughal propaganda that survived to this day to put bigan in panthic unity 

 

Baba Binod Singh didn't commit treason with Baba Banda Bahadur. They simplt differed over battle tactics. Binod Singh wanted to leave the fort and face the moghals in open battle. Banda Bahadar wanted to wait and see if reinforcements arrived, or for the beseigers to get tired of the siege and lift it.

 

Banda Bahadur did not stop any Sikhs leaving with Binod Singh and as it turns out the end result was not favourable for either group. Binod Singhs' group were all killed in open battle against overwhelming enemy forces. Baba Banda Bahadurs' forces were taken almost at death from starvation and then executed in delhi.

 

 

On 4/20/2021 at 8:10 PM, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

1. does sangat here think nihangs were corrupted by the time sgpc came into being

2. their history is very incoherent during british raj, from being wiped to verge of extinction by british after battle of sabraon and emigrating to sri hazur sahib, to being in control of sri akal thakt and fighting for sikh  rights to bear arms 

3. many say nihangs retained a presence in the akal bunga, but then how can they let mahants place idols inside parkarma, let british set sri darbar sahib up for auction in 187?, or let discrimination against dalit war veterans from entering sri darbar sahib, etc.

 

1. Yes.

2. Answered above.

3. This is the issue.

 

5 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

Should the Nihangs be reinstated into the Akal Takht? 

 

Yes, because if they are given control again, they will start doing parkash of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib, which is essential as some much poison is spread against Guru Sahib's Granth, and this will be a good way of countering that.

 

5 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

I was recently watching this podcast with Nidar Singh on there (controversial guy I get it), but he mentions an instance when he was younger where he asks his master permission to join the chakravati Nihangs in the camps and his ustaad straight up said "Go ahead and join them if you wanna lose your Sikhi."

 

haha. Only cos they hate his hindu-sikh nonsense and got him at Sri Hazur Sahib were he was humiliated. Afterwards he released a statment that if he desired to, he could have killed them all easily. Niddar would never have lasted one day in the camps. This is just his warped way of claiming that he, and only he, is the true Sikh in the world lol.

 

 

 

[dharamyudh]

On 7/4/2021 at 4:35 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Let's look at WHY the SIngh Sabha wanted to take over Sri Akal Bunga first.

 

IN the 1920s when 2nd Singh Sabha Lehar started, low caste people, esp Churre and Chamars, were NOT allowed to enter the Parikarma of Darbar Sahib because of their caste. The management (pre SGPC) were enforcing this. Low castes had to do namishkar from the steps and go back.

 

What kind of nonsense is this in the holiest place in the world?

 

The Singh Sabha wanted to end this as they did an enormous amount of parchar amongst low castes and brought thousands into Sikhi. However the British backed management of Darbar Sahib would not allow them in. Guess who was either supporting the management, or at the very least allowing it to happen? The same Nihangs you are talking about.

 

How on earth is this Gurmat? By those whoare supposed to be the custodians of Sikhi?

 

When the Singh Sabha had wrested control of Darbar Sahib from the British stooges, they moved to the next important shrine in the complex - Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

 

You have to ask yourself, why did the nihangs let such manmat happen in there.

 

 

 

The key is to be on the side of Gurmat, not nihang or singh sabha.

 

Also you are confusing Babbar Akalis with Nihangs. They are not the same.

 

 

 

The Nihangs were not on the point of extinction. At this time, the British passed an order to shoot Nihangs on sight in Panjab, but it was repealed soon after. When this order came about most Chakarvarti Nihangs left Panjab for safer confines, but not ALL and certainly not those in their deras or bungas.

 

 

Worhsip of weapons. It is mentioned in old Sikh texts and is still practiced by Dal Panth. If I'm not mistaken the shastar pooja day falls one day after Diwali.

 

 

Baba Binod Singh didn't commit treason with Baba Banda Bahadur. They simplt differed over battle tactics. Binod Singh wanted to leave the fort and face the moghals in open battle. Banda Bahadar wanted to wait and see if reinforcements arrived, or for the beseigers to get tired of the siege and lift it.

 

Banda Bahadur did not stop any Sikhs leaving with Binod Singh and as it turns out the end result was not favourable for either group. Binod Singhs' group were all killed in open battle against overwhelming enemy forces. Baba Banda Bahadurs' forces were taken almost at death from starvation and then executed in delhi.

 

 

 

1. Yes.

2. Answered above.

3. This is the issue.

 

 

Yes, because if they are given control again, they will start doing parkash of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib, which is essential as some much poison is spread against Guru Sahib's Granth, and this will be a good way of countering that.

 

 

haha. Only cos they hate his hindu-sikh nonsense and got him at Sri Hazur Sahib were he was humiliated. Afterwards he released a statment that if he desired to, he could have killed them all easily. Niddar would never have lasted one day in the camps. This is just his warped way of claiming that he, and only he, is the true Sikh in the world lol.

 

 

 

 

My thing is this: It's fine to have the Nihangs reinstated. I can support that. I want Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji parkash and getting rid of of this horrid voting system we got. However, we really need to address the fact that the Budha Dal is not at all united regarding their leadership. Additionally, it unfortunately has a sketchy link, like most Sikh institutions, with Panjab politics. Besides bringing back parkash and puratan maryada, we would essentially be in the same exact boat regarding leadership. They need to address their issues. 

[GurjantGnostic]

On 7/4/2021 at 10:57 AM, dharamyudh said:

 

My thing is this: It's fine to have the Nihangs reinstated. I can support that. I want Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji parkash and getting rid of of this horrid voting system we got. However, we really need to address the fact that the Budha Dal is not at all united regarding their leadership. Additionally, it unfortunately has a sketchy link, like most Sikh intuitions, with the Panjab politics. Besides bringing back parkash and puratan maryada, we would essentially be in the same exact boat regarding leadership. They need to address their issues. 

Getting rid of voting should help with the leadership.

It would remove the artificial division between Mona and Khalsa Singhs as well. 

Fiscal transparency can do a lot to secure yourself against being bought out, and would just about finish the fix. 

[GurjantGnostic]

On 7/4/2021 at 3:35 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Let's look at WHY the SIngh Sabha wanted to take over Sri Akal Bunga first.

 

IN the 1920s when 2nd Singh Sabha Lehar started, low caste people, esp Churre and Chamars, were NOT allowed to enter the Parikarma of Darbar Sahib because of their caste. The management (pre SGPC) were enforcing this. Low castes had to do namishkar from the steps and go back.

 

What kind of nonsense is this in the holiest place in the world?

 

The Singh Sabha wanted to end this as they did an enormous amount of parchar amongst low castes and brought thousands into Sikhi. However the British backed management of Darbar Sahib would not allow them in. Guess who was either supporting the management, or at the very least allowing it to happen? The same Nihangs you are talking about.

 

How on earth is this Gurmat? By those whoare supposed to be the custodians of Sikhi?

 

When the Singh Sabha had wrested control of Darbar Sahib from the British stooges, they moved to the next important shrine in the complex - Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

 

You have to ask yourself, why did the nihangs let such manmat happen in there.

 

 

 

The key is to be on the side of Gurmat, not nihang or singh sabha.

 

Also you are confusing Babbar Akalis with Nihangs. They are not the same.

 

 

 

The Nihangs were not on the point of extinction. At this time, the British passed an order to shoot Nihangs on sight in Panjab, but it was repealed soon after. When this order came about most Chakarvarti Nihangs left Panjab for safer confines, but not ALL and certainly not those in their deras or bungas.

 

 

Worhsip of weapons. It is mentioned in old Sikh texts and is still practiced by Dal Panth. If I'm not mistaken the shastar pooja day falls one day after Diwali.

 

 

Baba Binod Singh didn't commit treason with Baba Banda Bahadur. They simplt differed over battle tactics. Binod Singh wanted to leave the fort and face the moghals in open battle. Banda Bahadar wanted to wait and see if reinforcements arrived, or for the beseigers to get tired of the siege and lift it.

 

Banda Bahadur did not stop any Sikhs leaving with Binod Singh and as it turns out the end result was not favourable for either group. Binod Singhs' group were all killed in open battle against overwhelming enemy forces. Baba Banda Bahadurs' forces were taken almost at death from starvation and then executed in delhi.

 

 

 

1. Yes.

2. Answered above.

3. This is the issue.

 

 

Yes, because if they are given control again, they will start doing parkash of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib, which is essential as some much poison is spread against Guru Sahib's Granth, and this will be a good way of countering that.

 

 

haha. Only cos they hate his hindu-sikh nonsense and got him at Sri Hazur Sahib were he was humiliated. Afterwards he released a statment that if he desired to, he could have killed them all easily. Niddar would never have lasted one day in the camps. This is just his warped way of claiming that he, and only he, is the true Sikh in the world lol.

 

 

 

I will say that he conducts himself fairly well under fire. His statements after the fact are rediculous but he does hold his own. Holding one's own however, and being able to "kill everybody" are worlds apart though. 

[NaamTiharoJoJape]

On 7/4/2021 at 3:35 AM, chatanga1 said:

On 4/15/2021 at 9:40 AM, NaamTiharoJoJape said:

so bhai sahib, you agree with the nihang singh side of this?

 

this part of history is confusing, cuz it would villainize either the Babbar Akalis or the diminish the honour of Shrimoni Akali Panth Buddha Dal and I certainly do not want to open old wounds of bad blood 

 

 

The key is to be on the side of Gurmat, not nihang or singh sabha.

 

Also you are confusing Babbar Akalis with Nihangs. They are not the same

Yes, I was referring to Kartar Singh Jhabbar and the ones who freed the gurudware

thx for the response

most people seem to be against the SGPC version of the story, is Jhabbar and the gurudwara reformers really to be blamed much as well