Why was Jathedar Baba Sahib Singh ji Kicked Out?

[proactive]

1 minute ago, dharamyudh said:

Totally Khalsa Tradition to remove Puratan foundations that Guru Maharaj built right? Quit your waffling. 

When did I say this is right? The Akal Takht could have been symbolically cleansed. You are a child and you did not live during that time. The amount of anger that all Sikhs had against the  Gaddar having been involved in the 'kar sewa' is something you would not understand. So easy to sit here 40 years after the event and pontificate. Had a kid like you tried to stop it you would have been jhatka'ed in a second. 

[proactive]

10 minutes ago, dharamyudh said:

Nice source man  this guy can't be serious....

So you seriously think that Santa Singh and his Nihangs had the knowledge required to repair the Akal Takht? Seriously? He was the patsy bought in to be the face of the 'kar sewa' while Govt organisations were the ones that did the work. 

[proactive]

 

It's so easy to dismiss things now and make up lame excuses for why Santa did his GADDARI. Here is his views from the time and you can all decide whether this guy deserves the title of MAHAPURKH. 

 

Interview with Indian Today during the 'kar sewa'

The Nihangs: Storm-troopers - Cover Story News - Issue Date: Aug 15, 1984 (indiatoday.in)

On the allegation that he is a government stooge.
Utter rubbish. We are the real heirs of the Sikh shrines and traditions. We were authorized to look after the Gurudwaras by the Sixth Guru while the SGPC got its authority from an act passed by the British. The act should have gone across the seven seas along with the British. In any case, whose authority is paramount, the Guru's or the British rulers'?

Then why not come before the Panth and stake a claim to be the legitimate heirs of Akali Phoola Singh? Santa Singh knew he didn't have a hope in hell of convincing any Sikhs that he could fulfil the role of Akal Takht Jathedar

On why he is so upset with the SGPC.
They have been messing about for 60 years. They just make a commotion. I call them Khappoo Singhs (Khap means noise in Punjabi). Their movement has failed and now they are running marches, hiding behind women and children. Why didn't they act when Bhindranwale's men were going about defecating and drying underwear on the balconies of the Akal Takht?

Promoting the government narrative that Sant Bhindranwale was the one desecrating the Akal Takht. A great display of being a Mahapurkh. 

On the Akalis' excuse that they did not oppose Bhindranwale out of fear.
Why did they never approach me for help? I would have happily sent in my cavalry. What are all these gallant horsemen for if not for saving the shrines from desecration? It is because they did not ask their own Sikh armies that Mrs Gandhi had to send in hers.

Promoting a civil war among Sikhs. He didn't have the guts to oppose Sant Bhindranwale but after he was martyred this clown played at being a warrior. 

On display of firearms by his men.
These are licensed weapons. I am myself authorized to issue certain licenses. But these arms are meant to protect and not slaughter innocent people.

Wow, so he opposes the SGPC for working under government dictates but his men all go to govt offices to get firearms licences or is authorised by the govt to issue licences on its behalf. Talk about hypocrisy. 

On the Khalistan demand.
Isn't the President of India a Sikh? There are so many ministers, generals, officers. There is no discrimination. And in which little district will they make their Khalistan?

Zail Singh being president is enough to prove that the whole Dharam Yudh morcha was a sham! So he doesn't believe in the need for Khalsa Raj or is Khalsa Raj different for a free Sikh nation? 

On the charge the men would take cannabis inside the temple.
Address this charge to those who were actually selling opium inside the temple. I am told opium was being sold for as little as a rupee a capsule. Today we are finding bottles of rum and even safety razors in the debris in the Akal Takht.

Again promoting the govt narrative that Sant Bhindranwale's men were the ones desecrating the Akal Takht. So is he saying that they were all drunkards and secret shavers? Or could the rum bottles and safety razors be from the same haram.zada army men who were protecting him? 

[dharamyudh]

11 hours ago, proactive said:

Get your facts straight, Baba Kharak Singh was not a Nihang, he was involved in Kar Sewa across Punjab. Here he is with Sant Bhindranwale. A number of his followers were also martyred during Bluestar.

Woops I mixed them up. Baba Kharak Singhs bro, thought you were talking about the Budha Dal one. 

[dharamyudh]

11 hours ago, proactive said:

 

It's so easy to dismiss things now and make up lame excuses for why Santa did his GADDARI. Here is his views from the time and you can all decide whether this guy deserves the title of MAHAPURKH. 

 

Interview with Indian Today during the 'kar sewa'

The Nihangs: Storm-troopers - Cover Story News - Issue Date: Aug 15, 1984 (indiatoday.in)

On the allegation that he is a government stooge.
Utter rubbish. We are the real heirs of the Sikh shrines and traditions. We were authorized to look after the Gurudwaras by the Sixth Guru while the SGPC got its authority from an act passed by the British. The act should have gone across the seven seas along with the British. In any case, whose authority is paramount, the Guru's or the British rulers'?

Then why not come before the Panth and stake a claim to be the legitimate heirs of Akali Phoola Singh? Santa Singh knew he didn't have a hope in hell of convincing any Sikhs that he could fulfil the role of Akal Takht Jathedar

On why he is so upset with the SGPC.
They have been messing about for 60 years. They just make a commotion. I call them Khappoo Singhs (Khap means noise in Punjabi). Their movement has failed and now they are running marches, hiding behind women and children. Why didn't they act when Bhindranwale's men were going about defecating and drying underwear on the balconies of the Akal Takht?

Promoting the government narrative that Sant Bhindranwale was the one desecrating the Akal Takht. A great display of being a Mahapurkh. 

On the Akalis' excuse that they did not oppose Bhindranwale out of fear.
Why did they never approach me for help? I would have happily sent in my cavalry. What are all these gallant horsemen for if not for saving the shrines from desecration? It is because they did not ask their own Sikh armies that Mrs Gandhi had to send in hers.

Promoting a civil war among Sikhs. He didn't have the guts to oppose Sant Bhindranwale but after he was martyred this clown played at being a warrior. 

On display of firearms by his men.
These are licensed weapons. I am myself authorized to issue certain licenses. But these arms are meant to protect and not slaughter innocent people.

Wow, so he opposes the SGPC for working under government dictates but his men all go to govt offices to get firearms licences or is authorised by the govt to issue licences on its behalf. Talk about hypocrisy. 

On the Khalistan demand.
Isn't the President of India a Sikh? There are so many ministers, generals, officers. There is no discrimination. And in which little district will they make their Khalistan?

Zail Singh being president is enough to prove that the whole Dharam Yudh morcha was a sham! So he doesn't believe in the need for Khalsa Raj or is Khalsa Raj different for a free Sikh nation? 

On the charge the men would take cannabis inside the temple.
Address this charge to those who were actually selling opium inside the temple. I am told opium was being sold for as little as a rupee a capsule. Today we are finding bottles of rum and even safety razors in the debris in the Akal Takht.

Again promoting the govt narrative that Sant Bhindranwale's men were the ones desecrating the Akal Takht. So is he saying that they were all drunkards and secret shavers? Or could the rum bottles and safety razors be from the same haram.zada army men who were protecting him? 

 

Now for people who don't know... There was a whole bunch of misinformation in 1984... Ask any of your elders, parents, or village folk. People genuinely believed that Sant Ji was a terrorist at this time, it's only recently where people have the information that they do. There are regular village people that literally called the Kharku Singhs Atwaadi. Take this as a product of its time. People like Mr. Proactive don't take this into account. Also, you lot talk about the Indian media and how they twist narratives, this guy is literally providing a news article published under a Indian newspaper agency without the real quote from the man himself   Such a good source bro! 

Then why not come before the Panth and stake a claim to be the legitimate heirs of Akali Phoola Singh? Santa Singh knew he didn't have a hope in hell of convincing any Sikhs that he could fulfil the role of Akal Takht Jathedar

Nihang Singhs been sidelined by organizations like the SGPC. Fauj never accepted the SGPC, and still don't. Have any of your "jathedars" of Akal Takht fulfilled their roles as Jathedar? Do you know the Seva Baba Santa Singh Ji has done for Dal Panth? Budha Dal is the PANTH. 

 

Promoting the government narrative that Sant Bhindranwale was the one desecrating the Akal Takht. A great display of being a Mahapurkh. 

Once again, until you provide me a real quote I can't accept anything lol. I respect Sant Ji, but he talked about Baba Santa Singh Ji way before talking about the Budha Dal marayada of kirpan amrit.  

Promoting a civil war among Sikhs. He didn't have the guts to oppose Sant Bhindranwale but after he was martyred this clown played at being a warrior. 

Sant Ji himself said he had the support of all jathas, except Baba Santa Singh Ji and Budha Dal. He's been opposing it because he knew that the SGPC would be gaadars which they were.

 

Wow, so he opposes the SGPC for working under government dictates but his men all go to govt offices to get firearms licences or is authorised by the govt to issue licences on its behalf. Talk about hypocrisy. 

So you want Singhs to walk around with illegal firearms and get arrested? We're talking about the SGPC, a system that rules over gurdwaras that has no tradition in Sikhi yet you want to equate that with getting licensed firearms? There isn't a tradition of acquiring shastar. Shastar is shastar. Nihangs have licenses to acquire shastar and have Nihang blacksmith spots to ensure that they always have arms. 

Zail Singh being president is enough to prove that the whole Dharam Yudh morcha was a sham! So he doesn't believe in the need for Khalsa Raj or is Khalsa Raj different for a free Sikh nation? 

He isn't talking about the Dharam Yudh Morcha? He's talking about the Khalistani movement. It literally says The Khalistani Demand. As Baba Hari Singh Ji Nihang said in an interview "The Khalsa is doing Raj. As the Khalsa is free. We have the divine command to keep arms. We have our own food system, our own goverment, our own flag, our own scripture, we are sovereign. Yes, but soon the Khalsa will do Raj, as many will have to embrace the Shabad Guru, as the world is going through terrible (bhayanic) times. There will be many wars, famines, earth quakes, and diseases. This is because the human being has forgotten the Naam, and therefore has no Dharam. Until mankind comes into Dharam and balance with nature, nature will keep man in his place. The power of Kudrat (Gods natural power or command over nature which he is a part of) is infinite it has no end, a man has to realise that he has to follow the will of the Creator. Please read the karninama, if you do practice of this bani you will realise for yourself." 

From the man himself

 

 

Again promoting the govt narrative that Sant Bhindranwale's men were the ones desecrating the Akal Takht. So is he saying that they were all drunkards and secret shavers? Or could the rum bottles and safety razors be from the same haram.zada army men who were protecting him? 

 

You are quoting INDIAN MEDIA, by the INDIAN AUTHOR "SHEKHAR GUPTA." Yet would you do the same when talking about the Khalistani movement? Oh then it'll be "Oooooh it's biased Singho! They twist narratives Singho!" 

[dharamyudh]

Literal nephew of Baba Thakur Singh Ji Bhindranwale. 

 

 

[dharamyudh]

It's just hilarious to me that these guys talk about the bias Indian media back in the 80s and 90s, hell even now, yet @proactiveis using an Indian media source published two months after the attack! Now they all of a sudden they can't twist anything or mistranslate but now he considers them a reliable source to question Baba Santa Singh Ji. The real question is would you use that same source, the Indian media, when they talked about the Lehar or Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale? Stop it man. 

 

Keep thinking this man will bring you Khalistan 

[GurjantGnostic]

5 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

 

Now for people who don't know... There was a whole bunch of misinformation in 1984... Ask any of your elders, parents, or village folk. People genuinely believed that Sant Ji was a terrorist at this time, it's only recently where people have the information that they do. There are regular village people that literally called the Kharku Singhs Atwaadi. Take this as a product of its time. People like Mr. Proactive don't take this into account. Also, you lot talk about the Indian media and how they twist narratives, this guy is literally providing a news article published under a Indian newspaper agency without the real quote from the man himself   Such a good source bro! 

Then why not come before the Panth and stake a claim to be the legitimate heirs of Akali Phoola Singh? Santa Singh knew he didn't have a hope in hell of convincing any Sikhs that he could fulfil the role of Akal Takht Jathedar

Nihang Singhs been sidelined by organizations like the SGPC. Fauj never accepted the SGPC, and still don't. Have any of your "jathedars" of Akal Takht fulfilled their roles as Jathedar? Do you know the Seva Baba Santa Singh Ji has done for Dal Panth? Budha Dal is the PANTH. 

 

Promoting the government narrative that Sant Bhindranwale was the one desecrating the Akal Takht. A great display of being a Mahapurkh. 

Once again, until you provide me a real quote I can't accept anything lol. I respect Sant Ji, but he talked about Baba Santa Singh Ji way before talking about the Budha Dal marayada of kirpan amrit.  

Promoting a civil war among Sikhs. He didn't have the guts to oppose Sant Bhindranwale but after he was martyred this clown played at being a warrior. 

Sant Ji himself said he had the support of all jathas, except Baba Santa Singh Ji and Budha Dal. He's been opposing it because he knew that the SGPC would be gaadars which they were.

 

Wow, so he opposes the SGPC for working under government dictates but his men all go to govt offices to get firearms licences or is authorised by the govt to issue licences on its behalf. Talk about hypocrisy. 

So you want Singhs to walk around with illegal firearms and get arrested? We're talking about the SGPC, a system that rules over gurdwaras that has no tradition in Sikhi yet you want to equate that with getting licensed firearms? There isn't a tradition of acquiring shastar. Shastar is shastar. Nihangs have licenses to acquire shastar and have Nihang blacksmith spots to ensure that they always have arms. 

Zail Singh being president is enough to prove that the whole Dharam Yudh morcha was a sham! So he doesn't believe in the need for Khalsa Raj or is Khalsa Raj different for a free Sikh nation? 

He isn't talking about the Dharam Yudh Morcha? He's talking about the Khalistani movement. It literally says The Khalistani Demand. As Baba Hari Singh Ji Nihang said in an interview "The Khalsa is doing Raj. As the Khalsa is free. We have the divine command to keep arms. We have our own food system, our own goverment, our own flag, our own scripture, we are sovereign. Yes, but soon the Khalsa will do Raj, as many will have to embrace the Shabad Guru, as the world is going through terrible (bhayanic) times. There will be many wars, famines, earth quakes, and diseases. This is because the human being has forgotten the Naam, and therefore has no Dharam. Until mankind comes into Dharam and balance with nature, nature will keep man in his place. The power of Kudrat (Gods natural power or command over nature which he is a part of) is infinite it has no end, a man has to realise that he has to follow the will of the Creator. Please read the karninama, if you do practice of this bani you will realise for yourself." 

From the man himself

 

 

Again promoting the govt narrative that Sant Bhindranwale's men were the ones desecrating the Akal Takht. So is he saying that they were all drunkards and secret shavers? Or could the rum bottles and safety razors be from the same haram.zada army men who were protecting him? 

 

You are quoting INDIAN MEDIA, by the INDIAN AUTHOR "SHEKHAR GUPTA." Yet would you do the same when talking about the Khalistani movement? Oh then it'll be "Oooooh it's biased Singho! They twist narratives Singho!" 

I have to say bro I actually like your arguments far better than I like Santa Singhs interview. Maybe you should be the Jathadar. Lol. I agree Nihang have been sidelined. But I don't necessarily agree with his responses. I agree Nihang a greater role and place in the Paanth than they have now. I do think sgpc needs a total reform as do all the Gurudwara collecting Daswandh before there. I'll have to come back later and read the rest of the debate. Good on you both. 

[Jacfsing2]

6 minutes ago, GurjantGnostic said:

I have to say bro I actually like your arguments far better than I like Santa Singhs interview. Maybe you should be the Jathadar. Lol. I agree Nihang have been sidelined. But I don't necessarily agree with his responses. I agree Nihang a greater role and place in the Paanth than they have now. I do think sgpc needs a total reform as do all the Gurudwara collecting Daswandh before there. I'll have to come back later and read the rest of the debate. Good on you both. 

When SGPC acknowledges Jagtar Singh Hawara, then they can have some respect, until that happens, they should be seen as gaddar for saying their committee is higher than Punj Pyare.

[proactive]

8 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

 

Now for people who don't know... There was a whole bunch of misinformation in 1984... Ask any of your elders, parents, or village folk. People genuinely believed that Sant Ji was a terrorist at this time, it's only recently where people have the information that they do. There are regular village people that literally called the Kharku Singhs Atwaadi. Take this as a product of its time. People like Mr. Proactive don't take this into account. Also, you lot talk about the Indian media and how they twist narratives, this guy is literally providing a news article published under a Indian newspaper agency without the real quote from the man himself   Such a good source bro! 

 

Total BS and something that can only come from someone who didn't live through those times. The only ones who viewed Santji as a terrorist were the ones who were always against him from the start such as the extremist Hindus, the Congressis, the leftists and the cultists like the Nirankaris. The common Sikhs never viewed Santji as a terrorist either before or after 1984. If your elders did then they must have some connection with the ones I listed above because no common Sikh in 1984 believed that Santji was a terrorist.

The only reassessment of Santji is being done by the youth NOW who had fallen victim to the decades of anti-Santji govt propaganda after the Kharkoo movement in 1995. They are now reassessing Santji and discovering the truth about him. The Sikhs of 1984 had no need for any reassessment, virtually every Sikh viewed him as a fighter for the rights of Punjab and the Sikh Panth. 

As for using the Indian media, you need to use your brain sometimes. It was in the interests of the Indian media to enhance Santa Singh's reputation but even the most pliant media considered him a clown and were embarrassed that the Indian govt advisors had come up with such a person to deal with the situation after Bluestar. If anything the media would be trying to make a cogent statement out of his ramblings. 

Santa Singh was like 10th or more down the list of people the Indian state wanted to use for its own purposes. The ones above him had more sense and understood the government plan against the Sikhs. ONLY Santa Singh allowed himself to be used in such an underhand manner. 

8 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

Nihang Singhs been sidelined by organizations like the SGPC. Fauj never accepted the SGPC, and still don't. Have any of your "jathedars" of Akal Takht fulfilled their roles as Jathedar? Do you know the Seva Baba Santa Singh Ji has done for Dal Panth? Budha Dal is the PANTH. 

The fact that the SGPC Jathedar did not fulfil his duties does not automatically legitimise Santa Singh as Jathedar. He had decades to present his claim to be the rightful Jathedar of Akal Takht and yet no one outside of the Nihangs considered him as such. He might even have thought that by being Indira Gandhi's puppet, he would be able to take over the Akal Takht after it had been rebuilt but even he had to admit which way the wind was blowing and gave up his plan.

You know I don't give a rats ar%e what Santa Singh did for his own organisation, if he wanted to be respected by the rest of the Panth then he needed to show what his contributions were to the whole of the Panth. And stop with your Budha Dal is the Panth bukwas. It might impress ignorant kids who have never actually done any research but it doesn't impress me. 

You stated in one of the other posts that the Nihangs could not openly come out with their guns because Punjab was under lockdown. You do know that hundreds if not thousands of Sikhs had started to march to the Durbar Sahib as soon as they learned that the army was attacking. These people were machine gunned from helicopters mercilessly while your Jathedar of 90 crore Khalsa with licensed firearms was sitting in his chaoni afraid to even go out because the military was in control. 

8 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

Once again, until you provide me a real quote I can't accept anything lol. I respect Sant Ji, but he talked about Baba Santa Singh Ji way before talking about the Budha Dal marayada of kirpan amrit.  

If the newspapers were misquoting him they could so easily have been exposed by him making a statement himself. The fact is he never did. The views expressed by him in the magazines were his views then, if he changed his views after then that doesn't make any difference. The fact is he was happy to be Indira Gandhi's puppet. 

 

8 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

Sant Ji himself said he had the support of all jathas, except Baba Santa Singh Ji and Budha Dal. He's been opposing it because he knew that the SGPC would be gaadars which they were.

You really have to bend facts to defend him. So he opposed the Dharam Yudh morcha because he knew the SGPC were gaddars! What did the SGPC have to do with Dharam Yudh morcha? Santji by his very presence in first the Guru Nanak Niwas and the Akal Takht had negated the SGPC and left them powerless. They knew he had the support of the Panth apart from the congressi Nihangs of Santa Singh. It was the Akali Dal and Longowal which betrayed the morcha in the end. Santa Singh had been a Congressi Nihang since the early 1970s and he remained one until the end.

8 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

So you want Singhs to walk around with illegal firearms and get arrested? We're talking about the SGPC, a system that rules over gurdwaras that has no tradition in Sikhi yet you want to equate that with getting licensed firearms? There isn't a tradition of acquiring shastar. Shastar is shastar. Nihangs have licenses to acquire shastar and have Nihang blacksmith spots to ensure that they always have arms. 

I don't want anyone to be arrested but I am against the hypocrisy which tries to paint the SGPC as illegitimate because it functions under govt control while Santa Singh claimed to be sovereign in his own right and yet had to follow the govt rules of firearms licences. You are either a part of the system or you are not. 

9 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

He isn't talking about the Dharam Yudh Morcha? He's talking about the Khalistani movement. It literally says The Khalistani Demand. As Baba Hari Singh Ji Nihang said in an interview "The Khalsa is doing Raj. As the Khalsa is free. We have the divine command to keep arms. We have our own food system, our own goverment, our own flag, our own scripture, we are sovereign. Yes, but soon the Khalsa will do Raj, as many will have to embrace the Shabad Guru, as the world is going through terrible (bhayanic) times. There will be many wars, famines, earth quakes, and diseases. This is because the human being has forgotten the Naam, and therefore has no Dharam. Until mankind comes into Dharam and balance with nature, nature will keep man in his place. The power of Kudrat (Gods natural power or command over nature which he is a part of) is infinite it has no end, a man has to realise that he has to follow the will of the Creator. Please read the karninama, if you do practice of this bani you will realise for yourself." 

Yes, but he is then countering the need for Khalistan by saying that there is no discrimination against Sikhs. This is what he said in answer to the Khalistan demand-;

Isn't the President of India a Sikh? There are so many ministers, generals, officers. There is no discrimination. And in which little district will they make their Khalistan?

So now be honest, is this not a complete lie for not only India in 1984 but also India in 2022. The Indian state taught this so-called Jathedar well, he was mouthing the same lies that the Indian state has mouthed since 1947. 

9 hours ago, dharamyudh said:

You are quoting INDIAN MEDIA, by the INDIAN AUTHOR "SHEKHAR GUPTA." Yet would you do the same when talking about the Khalistani movement? Oh then it'll be "Oooooh it's biased Singho! They twist narratives Singho!" 

Again where was the clarification, whenever the newspapers misquoted Santji he always made sure that he told the Sangat what the real facts were. Newspapers such as Ajit and Akali Patrika would publish these clarifications. Santa Singh did no such thing. Either he was incredibly naive or he was playing the government's game, both don't do much for his reputation.