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If all Sikhs returned to Punjab and India ?


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1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

Do you think we'd create a new strata of society there? Or would we just merge into the majority? 

We have certain tastes now, that desis don't. My feeling is that people would also replicate aspects of the country they left, so cafes, pubs, restaurants. I'd imagine even new builds for the 'refugees' might reflect the architecture of where they grew up. 

Can I have guns there? 

If you think about it, in the above hypothetical scene, we'd have hordes of skilled and experienced people over there. From doctors, surgeons, architects, nurses, teachers, various types of engineers. 

Are we talking about an independent Sikh homeland Panjab here? Or the current one in India?

It's tough to say. I think there'd be a variety of behaviour on a wide spectrum; some who err towards the more religiously spiritual side of things where an authentic and grounded lifestyle of "becoming" inseparable from the locals would be a priority. Others would probably emulate the British ex-pat mentality where they try to create a British-Sikh enclave that serves to have the best of both worlds while still maintaining their position as outsiders. The utterly Westernised amongst us wouldn't even bother going out there, lol. Regardless, the locals would never stop reminding us that we aren't like them. That would probably annoy and eventually disillusion some of the naive and hopeful ones among us who'd assume they'd gradually be accepted as one of them over time.

However, regardless of what "we" want in either of the aforementioned instances, I think the need to truly understand the innate Indian way of doing things and that place's collective mentality is essential. I read a sociology book a while ago about India being comparable to a huge snake that gradually swallows or subsumes every culture, belief system, etc., in its path, leaving its mark of Indianness on even the most alien of things to that country. I really think that's true. You don't notice it when you're living in it and surrounded by it, but once you step away for a while and return, you really do notice how that place and its ways have managed to get under your skin.

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A best case scenario is that we rejuvenate the place. But I know pinds, they are seriously averse to any change.  So I guess most of us will gravitate towards towns.  Having worked with many desi

I don't think the majority of british raised people have the physical strength and mentality to do graft like kheti myself?  But who knows? Plus, we have all the tractors/combine harvesters etc. I thi

Can people hack with starting from scratch though.  People are too comfortable to move there. It would be something drastic to make it a viable option. 

Nobody will survive. India is corrupt and with huge population, it is simply just out of control. 
 

hypothetically, let’s say a large group went back, it will be more beneficial to India than to us. 

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It depends on what the political geography is when they go back. If Punjab is independent then the influx of cash rich migrants back to their homeland will certainly be a big asset for Punjab. Given that a good number of the youth will be professionals like doctors, dentists, IT experts, accountants, lawyers etc this will mean that Punjab has the potential to become a IT hub as well as provide good quality healthcare for the population. Possibly even the creation of a national health service (NHS )in Punjab. With Punjab being independent, then the freedoms with which these diaspora Sikhs enjoyed aboard will have greater support and possibly stop any move towards authoritarianism in Punjab. 

The diaspora is probably 2 million in number, so moving back they will create a strong demographic bloc which will need to be catered to by the politicians. Also they are more likely to vote in elections as well as take part in civic society than the native Punjabis. The only negative for the diaspora is that they also have major divisions such as being almost equally divided between British, Americans and Canadians. Add to these the smaller numbers of German, Italian, Malaysian, Singaporean, Myanmar and Australia/NZ and other Sikhs. These differences will be use by politicians to stop the diaspora becoming a strong voting bloc. 

Certainly, the Punjab economy would see higher growth and the links that the diaspora has as well as their language skills will be a great asset for Punjabi companies wanting to trade with the west as well as with SE Asia and Japan. The Sikh diaspora from the middle east from places like Dubai, Kuwait, UAE and Qatar will also allow for Punjab to trade with these countries. Given that every jana khana diaspora Sikh is into IT, then Punjab would see a flurry of IT start ups and as with Israel you could see many Punjabi start up IPOs in the Nasdaq after a few years. You will also see greater mechanisation of agriculture and the move to stop the environmental damage being done to Punjab. 

Along with all the economic advantage for Punjab the Punjab will also become a more interesting place, the Punjabi language will also undergo some change and probably new dialects of Punjabi being spoken in areas where a majority of the diaspora Sikhs have settled. Words from German, French, Malay, Italian will find their way into Punjabi. Also I think the 'Indian' accent of Punjabis will also change which in itself is worth separating Punjab for India just for that. Punjabis will start talking much more slowly because the young kids of the diaspora will never be able to understand the fast talking native Punjabis. 

All in all it would make Punjab a much more interesting place and bring back the vibrancy for with Punjab was renowned in previous decades. 

 

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Punjab's GDP was $70 billion in 2020. If we take the example of UK Sikhs, I would estimate that each UK Sikh if they were to liquidate their property, their investments and their goods, each one would be worth about £100,000, that's taking account of the fact that many families who have been established here for more than 50 years are worth over a £1 million while the recent arrivals might only be worth a few thousand pounds, As the census showed, Sikhs have a higher level of property ownership (over 80%) then even the white population. In the UK property have grown hugely over the years. Taking the average of £100,000 then UK Sikhs have to potential to pump in $70 billion into Punjab about the same as the GDP. If the average of the UK is taken for the whole of the diaspora then this would mean the diaspora could potentially pump in $280 billion into Punjab in one go, four times the current GDP of Punjab if the diaspora were to return to Punjab. 

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9 hours ago, proactive said:

 

Punjab's GDP was $70 billion in 2020. If we take the example of UK Sikhs, I would estimate that each UK Sikh if they were to liquidate their property, their investments and their goods, each one would be worth about £100,000, that's taking account of the fact that many families who have been established here for more than 50 years are worth over a £1 million while the recent arrivals might only be worth a few thousand pounds, As the census showed, Sikhs have a higher level of property ownership (over 80%) then even the white population. In the UK property have grown hugely over the years. Taking the average of £100,000 then UK Sikhs have to potential to pump in $70 billion into Punjab about the same as the GDP. If the average of the UK is taken for the whole of the diaspora then this would mean the diaspora could potentially pump in $280 billion into Punjab in one go, four times the current GDP of Punjab if the diaspora were to return to Punjab. 

How much of that would get rapidly (and expertly)  siphoned off by corrupt Panjabi officials? 

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Let's throw some other interesting cards in:

How would desi juts react to the diasporic dalits who will turn up with infinitely more wealth than them? 

Let's say a bunch of us (5) bump into each other on the street and start talking to each other in english and telling a few jokes, how would the indigenous react?  

If we start having our own joints like restaurants etc. and they are highly frequented by us 'refugees'. How would the indigenous feel about it?  

Would they feel excluded and resentful or jealous? 

This thread is a really good idea/concept for a work of fiction btw.   

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2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Let's throw some other interesting cards in:

How would desi juts react to the diasporic dalits who will turn up with infinitely more wealth than them? 

Let's say a bunch of us (5) bump into each other on the street and start talking to each other in english and telling a few jokes, how would the indigenous react?  

If we start having our own joints like restaurants etc. and they are highly frequented by us 'refugees'. How would the indigenous feel about it?  

Would they feel excluded and resentful or jealous? 

This thread is a really good idea/concept for a work of fiction btw.   

These Dalits are mianly from Doaba and have been visiting Punjab for years and there has been no issues. if they want to buy land especially agricultural land than this might create issues but land prices will increase for sure and provided the Jats are getting a good price then there will be no issue. 

The only country where something similar has happened is Israel when the European Jews migrated and even Jews for Arab lands were relegated to being the working class and this created to separate classes in Israel with Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews. They tended to live in their own areas for many decades although there has been more mixing and intermarriage but there is definitely a simmering issue between these two classes. Punjab's issue is slightly different because at least 50% or more of the diaspora are still linked to their villages in Punjab so they would not really create any enclaves just for them. This was not the case with the Jews because they came without any links to the land. Resentment exists where ever there is differences in wealth. 

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Nice topic. I’m a fan of urbanization, so I would envision a scenario where the diaspora doesn’t head back to their villages (the ones that came from pinds). I like Ludhiana because of its centrality in Punjab (even though the air and water pollution is off the charts!). More likely the diaspora would settle the outskirts of Chandigarh in the Punjab portion (towns like Mohali and New Chandigarh) because of the cleaner air and proximity to the shivalik hills. But for my scenario I am going with Ludhiana.

Ludhiana city is 66% Hindu and 29% Sikh with a population of 1.9 million (2021 estimate). It would require all 2 million diaspora sikhs to be stuffed in there to raise our percentage to 65 %. If we were to take the higher estimate of a 3 million diaspora, and all settled in Ludhiana, our percentage would be 71%. All 3 million diaspora would raise Punjab’s Sikh percentage from 57% to 62%.

Just shows how little our raw numbers add up back home within our own state, forget about India as a whole. Our strength lies in our prosperity outside of India. Within India 2-3 million barely registers. I mean there are 25 million babies born per year in India!

But even with the minor percent rise, our economic strength would be the real game changer as @proactive pointed out. We could shift the economic power into Sikh hands within some Punjabi cities, while the rural is already in the basket.

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4 hours ago, proactive said:

Punjab's issue is slightly different because at least 50% or more of the diaspora are still linked to their villages in Punjab so they would not really create any enclaves just for them.

You know this isn't true. If diasporan settlers created a bustling modern place, all the 'loyal to the pend' diasporans would come running to it. I think 'enclaves' (in lack of a better choice of words) would be inevitable. 

Plus I'm wondering, in the hypothetical situation. Would it cause many of us who grew up elsewhere to gravitate towards each other rather than the indigenous? 

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6 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

You know this isn't true. If diasporan settlers created a bustling modern place, all the 'loyal to the pend' diasporans would come running to it. I think 'enclaves' (in lack of a better choice of words) would be inevitable. 

Plus I'm wondering, in the hypothetical situation. Would it cause many of us who grew up elsewhere to gravitate towards each other rather than the indigenous? 

Not actually true, many people idealise the village life especially the elders and they would want to go to their village. Don't forget that in some villages over half the population went abroad so the diaspora Sikhs will have quite a large population in these villages and they will turn the village into a modern 'enclave' This is especially the case with parts of Doaba and to a lesser extent Malwa. In our village back home about 25% of the population has migrated, firstly to UK, then to Canada and US and now to Australia/NZ. Add to this the smaller numbers that are in Germany, France and Italy and if they all went back then they would turn the village into a very interesting place to live in. 

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I do think that it could possibly be a good thing for diaspora Sikhs to be able to return to the homeland if such an idea were possible. Diaspora Sikhs are much more intelligent and they could pour money into Punjab (at least with more transparency). They also have more of a patriotism for 'Punjab' itself and not for greater India. If they don't bend to the will of the central government, they could have a lot of things done. 

Unfortunately Sikhs have become too soft, even if they were to all go back to Punjab there is no guarantee that they'd do anything for the greater good of Punjab. I'm not sure. I think it's better to boost our numbers in foreign countries and accumulate more wealth. Spread as much knowledge and awareness of Sikhi as you can. 

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