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Last time I checked this was Sikh Sangat, how people think its ok to be justifying anything to do with caste I'll never understand especially on this platform. Yes we have a history but that's stands for nothing against the word of Guru Sahib, which states 'recognise the human race as one'. I couldn't give two hoots if you're a Jatt, Lohar or more relevantly a pharmacist or accountant. I don't care if the people of the past were amazing and make up the 'Heer Ranje' kisse we still hear today. All I know is the Sikhi I know and believe doesn't have time for these labels and divisions. It's not who you are that defines you (or the trade of your ancestors), its your actions that are more important.

That's the conclusion I've reached. We don't have to be geniuses to appreciate how ahead of their time the Gurus were in terms of their thinking and general outlook. Yet what annoys me is how stealth revisionists - even if they don't know they're doing it - try to dumb down everything about Sikhi for the typical Panjabi so it can be digested and absorbed on the most basic level. If this keeps happening the depth and nuance to be found in Sikhi and its ways will be lost to the ages. Mainstream Sikhi SHOULD be a bit difficult to get your head around; it should take some effort, some reflection, a bit of nouse to scratch the surface. It should not be limited to a collection of soundbites and a gaggle of visual adornments trotted out at select times of the year. Sikhi should disuade the chancers who hide behind Gursikhi garb to fool and deceive others, or the youngsters who don't understand the shakti and reverence behind Amrit but decide to become a Gursikh to increase their religious rep, and belong to something exclusive, yet with no conscious desire for self-improvement once the major step has been taken. Sikhi should be a path willingly tread like those 5 Singhs decided to embark upon many years ago at Anandpur: Live or die, give your head or not give your head. It should be a transformative, life-altering experience. It shouldn't be a buzz that lasts a couple of months and then simmers down allowing normal service to be resumed (internally at least). Sikhi is about following hukam, keeping rehat, but it's also more than that. It should be about compassion, loyalty, honesty, empathy, strength... great qualities any human being desires be part of their repertoire as a functioning member of society and the human race at large.

how to tie a patka. or, just do a keski. Its a small pagh that is warm and comfortable. also looks better

I too am vehemently against such tendencies. I've stated before, one of the most profound things that weaned me away from this was an interaction with dasmesh pita's Akaal Ustat, which uncompromisingly tears apart any notion of Waheguru or dharam being somehow 'owned' or solely belonging to any particular group/faith. I come from a Singh Sabha background myself in terms of literary influences and interpretations of faith and used to be quite narrow minded in terms of interpretations outside of this. I have to say, freeing my mind from such judgmental shackles is one of the greatest things to happen to me. You simply can't see reality when you've blinkered yourself along the lines of ANY particular group. That just leads to the most gross, unsophisticated petty mindedness which looks even worse coming from someone aligning themselves to a religious identity. All groups have their positives and negatives, we can learn from all. The tendency to try and 'monopolise' the truth is pathetic, but sadly seems to be a very common human instinct across religions. In terms of our spiritual beliefs, we should aim higher than being members of some exclusive/elitist groups who are sole custodians of sat. That's most often a stumbling at the first hurdle where people have turned their endeavours at dharam into some ego fueling mechanism.

So you didn't read the 15 other pages of discussion. Thanks for ignoring us all :biggrin2:

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki Fateh Sangat ji, you may not have heard of "Everythings 13" a sikh educational charity, however some of you may know about our YouTube channel "Basics of Sikhi". Most of you may not be aware that (with Guruji's kirpa and aagiaa) we're embarking on a new and comprehensive project to spread Guruji wisdom across the UK and Globally. Its called Plan BE13. Here is what our channel has on it currently.. Here is a video about Plan BE13 for 2013 Essentially we are hoping to do a 5 stage process of Parchar (1) Getting people into Sikhi (already happening) - Talks at Gurdwaras and Sikh Societies at colleges and Universities to interest youth/others into Sikhi and bring onto youtube channel - Spreading word about the Youtube Channel using facebook, twitter and and getting people into watching videos about Sikhi when they have spare time (there are around 80 videos on our youtube channel already) (2) Building a solid foundation (already happening) - holding a One Day Course +Kirtan Katha called "Re-Assessing the Fundamentals - Vaheguru, Guru and You" at various Gurdwaras (first one is due at Park Avenue Gurdwara Main Hall on the 29th December 2012) - 12 topic introductory course to Sikhi - called the WhyGuru Course. This course goes through the history of Sikhi from Guru Nanak to the present day and also has 4 separate topics which cover Guru Granth Sahib ji, The Khalsa, Raag Kirtan and Sikh Spiritual concepts of merging with the Divine. We already delivered this once in May this year and it was a success. (there is a video about this on our channel with video testimonials - we had 5 non-punjabi people attend. One lady, ex-muslim convert has now taken Amrit). (3) Learning Basics of Gurmukhi (planning done, needs filming) - A series of videos that goes into Why its important we learn Gurmukhi and How does Gurmukhi work? (Penti Akhar, Moharni) - Series of common vocabulary in Gurmukhi and how the words are put together - Basics of Santhiya - Slow paat, in video format with downloadable MP3s (4) Japji Sahib Vichaar classes (already happening) - We're doing weekly English katha of Japji Sahib and with Guru's kirpa are at the 34th Pauri. - Katha will be transcripted and put into an ebook format - Set up Japji Sahib Vichaar classes at variour gurdwaras where attendees would learn in their own time (watch the video, read ebook, watch/listen to other recommended katha (English by Bhai Sukhraj Singh, Punjabi- Maskeen ji, Giani Pinderpal Singh etc) and then come together for the vichaar class at their local gurdwara (ie build a sadhsangat) to discuss Japji sahib, pauri by Pauri. (5) Further Study (to be developed as part of Plan BE13) - More Gurbani Katha - planning on Rehras sahib and Asa Di Vaar - Basics of Kirtan and Tabla - Attend an intermediate level - "WhyKhalsa WhyFateh Course" In terms of funding, our parent we've raised about £18k of our £52k target for 2013 already. 99% of this has come from the sangat, (mostly youth and non-amritdhari). We're not charging anything for katha or the courses, as we see this as Spiritual Langar (Bhugat Giaan) which should be given freely and be dependent purely on Sangat kirpa (daeaa bhandarani). Read more about the specifics of Plan BE13 here: http://www.virginmoneygiving/charities/everythings13 Please do ardaas for us to Satguru that we stay on this path and stay true to Sikhi. Thanks for reading ji, bhul chuk maaf Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa, Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

baba jagjit singh ji does teach these granths if students wish to learn them. there are also recordings of them on gurmatveechar.com. imo, if you really want to learn vidya you are better off first listening to lots of katha, b/c the gian is provided for you in easily digestible form. especially katha of Guru Granth Sahib ji before reading and learning these granths. then the granths help expand upon knowledge gained from Bani. they are not all from hindu dharm. some of them are written by great sikhs of the past and so are entirely sikh. others are from the past and maharaj saw enough UNIVERSAL value in them to have them translated, and panthic sikhs of great stature saw enough value in them to make them part of a regular curriculum for kathakars. Bani has deeper and deeper levels of meaning, some that students cannot access b/c they lack the spiritual level. so some of these granths are written by people at higher spiritual levels and expand upon and teach some of the deeper meanings. other granths help you conduct yourself in the world and help you be aware of those who might take advantage of you or your koum (chanakya), others create detachment from the world (vairaag shatuk). These are things that are not only needed by Hindus, but by Sikhs as well.

The new year whih everyone is celebrating marks 2013 years since the birth of jesus. Why do we celebrate it in our Gurdware wih ardaas's to our Guru Sahib????? JAB LAG KHALSA REHE NIARA, TAB LAG TEJ DEEO ME SAARA JAB EHE GE BIPARAN KEE REET, ME NAA KARO IN KEE PARTEET

in olden times jathas would often engage in simran together for a while before discussing their differences. this is to reduce the influence of the argumentative mind, so people can discuss from a more heart-centered place. the western influence is to take humans from their natural heart-centred way of thinking and instead promote a head (ego) centered way of thinking. However, dharm is a path that required you to lose your head (egoic way of thinking) and instead come from the heart. when a person comes from the heart, there is a softness inside that makes it easier to withstand criticism and have a solution focused orientation. ever notice how when we are criticised sometimes there is this whooosh and all of a sudden the dhian rises up?? it's the inflammation of the ego. btw, i've also never ever even heard of people from sampradas saying you have to take amrit from our jatha.

/\/\/\ :lol:

There is no day we shouldn't celebrate in our Gurdwaras and do Ardasaan to Guru Sahib.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01g86qm/Our_World_No_Mans_Land/

First thing first, I am not against any jatha or samparda nor i m against any sant mahapursh/bhai sahib/prof/dr/gursikhs/senior gurmukhs who put panth at first. But with that being said, i am vehemently against any idea which promotes cultish tendacies/individual cultish perception (be it from youths, grown ups) which super imposes itself on the panth. I am sure humkire sahib ji can contribute on to this thread as this something i can agree with him totally. Personally speaking, I used to be quite cultish 5-6 years ago, i used to box the khalsa panth into a tunnel, made my own little idea/world of khalsa panth in my specific case was nanaksar and anything outside of nanaksar didn't pay any attention for eg- anything outside of teaching of baba nand singh ji maharaj regarding gurbani. My yard stick to measure an authenticity of gurbani regarding sri dasam granth and sri sarbloh granth was soley based on to see if baba nand singh maharaj quoted it and if he did - accept it fully while didn't pay attention to other compositions. There wasn't or isn't anything wrong with nanaksar or baba nand singh ji maharaj or samparda or jatha itself but everything was wrong with "my cultish perception" which boxed khalsa panth into tunnel vision seeing khalsa panth via nanaksar/googles of nanaksar. Then I looked into amish/mormon/ jevoh witness type of followers and studied them, as jevoh witness came to our house few times to do their parchar and everytime they would come- i would be quite pissed at them but reality sanked in- i was shocked that despite of jevoh witness different belief system than us. Jevoh Witness followers and I have very similar things in common which was "cultish perception". But as they say, even oppositions can give people reality checks and i am living example of it..!!, things start changing slowly where i opened up my horizon slightly- smell more beauty of diversity flowers around me. Now thanks to maharaj, i consider myself quite lucky my cultish perception was destroyed by maharaj himself and i could see panth at times from 360 degree angle specially when i am contemplating/self reflecting on things. Surely jatha and samparda's in the panth- be it akj, taksal, nirmale, udasi, sevapanthis, nihangs, soho rd- niskham seva jatha, 3ho dodra are all essential and its there to help to motivate someone in khalsa panth, they are all needed. We cannot do rejection or favor one over another but we need to be extremely careful when jatha/samparda's becomes driving force in one's individual sikhi rather than gurbani- kirtan, katha, patt, simran/meditation and seva. I too also need to be careful in parchar regarding jatha and samparda so that i don't villify their followers as reverse villify them is just as bad (another extreme) but i do think perception is everything- one could be still in jatha or taksal is still be quite open minded in diversity and vice versa. Nothing needs to changed in the jatha, samparda or maryada or anything in khalsa panth but only individual's perception of looking at things, perceiving things. I will end by very shocking quote i got from facebook which lead me honestly start this topic. Again not villifying any specific jatha or samparda's- cultish taksalis are just as bad where bhramgyani baba thakur singh ji barsi program overshadow inadvertently sahibzadais' shahedi divas instead of striking a right balance, cultish mentality is human problem cannot be tied to specific group or jatha. Anyway here is quote from an individual which lead me to open this new topic: http://www.facebook.com/hargurus Ironically enough, i had a same perception as this individual 5-6 years ago but by maharaj kirpa things have changed for me, this is classic example what we need to refrain from, i don't want people to make same mistakes like i did wasted years of my life..!!

I see this as a very superficial thirst for Truth - Sach that each individual goes through. Sree Raag: You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us? We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1|| If I did not commit any sins, O Infinite Lord, how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause|| You are my Master, the Inner-knower, Searcher of hearts. The servant is known by his God, and the Lord and Master is known by His servant. ||2|| Grant me the wisdom to worship and adore You with my body. O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3||

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/recognize-sikh-genocide-30000-killed-india-during-november-1984-yes-it-genocide/Py4DhDGg?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl Please sign everyone ,and also get your friends and family to sign, need 22000 more signatures before december 15

Bobby Friction, for all his previous faults and comments he has made, should in this regard be commended. I for one applaud him for taking this watershed moment in UK bhangra. Love him or loath him, he is a BBC Asian Network DJ with a degree of influence. If other radio DJ's follow his example, this could indeed be the start of something. http://www.chakdey.com/bobby-friction-challenges-bhangra-artists-by-refusing-to-play-their-music/ "I now challenge all other Radio/DJ's who play Asian & Desi music accross the world...Stop playing music that glorifies the caste system". "Bhangra, or the Bhangra scene will not die/fade out etc as some of you are saying...It will evolve". "To those who think Caste is OK or not responsible for hate or segregation then I say read the newspapers from India & do some research. To those who complain & say its gonna stop Bhangra being played I say you dont know Bhangra. 90% of Bhangra trax dont mention caste already" "I completely 100% stand by what I say.x From 31st August 2012 I will not play any tracks that mention caste on the FRICTION show."

^^Ghetto Gospel........rewind that one more time

So why don't you take up the challenge and approach the committee of the Gurdwara about this issue.

We HAVE got serious problems with caste. A massive part of which stems from the modern incarnation of 'Jat culture' and the mindset it creates. Beating around the bush about this just makes it fester. It needs to faced up to squarely. Simples.

There were real nihangs such as Jathedar Sant Baba Nihal Singh Jee who stood up for the 1984 crap , he was tied from his feet and dragged around punjab by a jeep. he still has the scars to prove this , if you look at sant ji's speeches baba jee is there . http://www.nihangsingh.org/blog/?p=773<<<< here are other example of other nihangs taking part in the morcha, Buddha dal's jathedar baba santa singh jee didn't give his army permission to take part in the morcha or jang because it was a "political matter" , many b.dal singhs left the dal and went against his hukam to fight. alot of Bidhi Chand Dal singhs went and fought aswell such as Avtar Singh Bhrama , there is even a blue nishaan raised in his memory by Bidhi Chand Dal... Don't paint everyone with the same brush, such nihangs as Akali Phoola Singh , Akali Baba Deep Singh , Akali Gurbash Singh etc were all great Nihang singhs ! , Even Guru Gobind Singh , the Char Sahibzade all fore farleh! there is even a gurdwara where Akali Baba Fateh Singh jee tied his Farla , name Dhumalaghar sahib in Anandpur Sahib . yeah most nihangs dont do crap , but they do alot more bani,seva &sevathan 90% of the users on here including me. and live in rehat , bana everyday etc i don't see you doing anything they do? so cut the crap yeah most maybe busy getting high... but most are nangs ( fake nihangs) real nihang singhs have always stood the test of time and fight when they are needed.... THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK , what have you done for the panth? oh that's right sit on sikhsangat and cuss people who you think haven't done anything. let akaal purakh be the judge and leave your ego behind the door. akaal sahai.

sometimes it's easier to do swas swas simran after reading a shabad about it. any shabad about it can be quite helpful.

Great post kalyugi veer all around..i want to focus on things you mentioned in the last bit. This is my point. The issue is not just with students who took amrit but also parchariks who feel their job is done once people have taken amrit. Here is another example, I know three youths through my distant relative from pind..when sant ranjit singh ji dhandrian wale first start becoming popular, these three youths were soo pumped up by sant ji pumped up divan, that they took amrit after 6 months or so, they cut their kesh why? It was small spike while it lasted, their mind could not sustain amrit as sikhi is sehaj marg wasn't explained by parcharaiks or understood by students, likewise there are many who are in sikh dharam for "juicy stuff/controversial stuff", "small mystic kicks" and in for as "authoritity to control and herd liked minded sheeps" as long they keep getting it or in power, they are sustained in the panth once they don't they won't be sustained in the panth all though they look like sikhs like regular joe blow like me and you. Sadh sangat is encouraged in Gurmat, society of saints/sant (all of sants mentioned or samparda's/jatha does so) that should inspire us to do bhagti, read gurbani, contemplate on it , do simran on our own, self-reflect, do khoj/research if it does not may be something wrong with our individual perception/mindset at the first place- may be we are looking for shortcuts or kicks or may be we are looking for wrong things. Sant Mahapursh be it bhai, sant, bhramgyani, prof all tend to join sikh-learners/students to be in love with gurbani, sri guru granth sahib,encourage to follow hakum and rehat, all tend to join others with tat(essence) of gurbani and at the end ultimately depending on kirpa from vahiguroo via mahapursh (if its preordained) mahapursh ultimately show one the mirror of their own reflection of their true self. .!! There is something fundamentally wrong with individual cultish perception if one is dwelling- spending time arguing/fighting/debating/discussing- 1. Debates on who is next successor of sant mahapursh- who goes on next gaddi ? - This is one of common debates/discussion among individuals associated within jatha/samparda's (all - be it nirmale, udasi, akj, nihangs, sevapanthis, taksal, rara sahib, nanaksar, hoti mardan, harkhowal, dodra, 3ho etc etc), i m sorry any discussion of who is next gaddi sant or jathedar on mainstream panthic stage, secular forums is coming across promoting cultish tendacies so i don't care who is doing it, keep it yourself, keep it off line..or even better- don't do it at all- consider it as hakum and concentrate on tat-essence- sant mahapursh is indicating or trying to show others- naam/seva/hakum/rehat/gurbani contemplation/self reflection/gyan etc..!! These cultish tendencies existed in guru maharaj time as well when guru maharaj gave parchar gaddiyas/manjiya to spread Gurmat, while gurmukhs were spreading Gurmat via established institutions ( manjia), people who start going to these institutions start not all but some are start becoming cultish, start having cultish tendencies as its human trait so much so that people were more concerned about gurmukhs who were spreading gurmat via blessed manjiya(establishment for gurmat) than actually Guru Maharaj himself..again nothing wrong with blessed gurmukhs who were spreading gurmat but everything wrong with individual perception which promotes cultish tendencies..!!!!!!!! 2. Debates on if "my sant is better than yours", this one is classic. Again totally missed the boat or missing the purpose of being in sadh sangat and actual purpose of sadh sangat which is being inspired to do bhagti, naam simran/gurbani contemplatation, self reflection, go intovert and do research within..!! 3. Debates on if sant jarnail singh khalsa bhindranwale is alive or shahed. Again totally missing the bigger hakum aspect of akaal purkh. Again seriously why should it concern our individual sikhi if sant jarnail singh khalsa bhindranwale is alive or shahid? (I wouldn't be to suprised if he is alive nor i wouldn't be equally suprised if he is shahid as guru maharaj hakum we cannot lock in pre-conceived notions and i will leave it at that and move on..!!). 4. Bhai sahib ji said so, so i m following, bhai sahib quoted it so i must follow it as shown in the original post 5. Seeing divinity/divine experience through sant mahapursh bhramgyani lenses (their personal expereince shared) in other words imitate them.. I am sorry that could itself become one's road block- each one of us have different karams/different perceptions/different state of minds, sometimes its better to flow one's consciousness/intuition spontaneously/naturally than force perception just because sant mahapursh/bhai sahib ji said so or wrote so. What may work for one, may not work for others as we are all at different avastha- state of mind, have different karams. I admit this one very subtle and very tricky..I am guilty of this one at times as well but i made general rule of thumb let the consciousness/intuition flow naturally don't force percept it or super impose other expereinces on yourself ..!!!!!!!

I'm feeling that last post!

ideal length of a patka should be 30cms and width should be of a normal pagh try it it will come right or try a small dumalla it looks better than patka

wjkk wjkf, happy new year to all! Regatrding theis issue, I think that Nidar and his crew our out of Wolverhampton, Leicester and Birmingham Gurdwara's (Somerset Rd). I think they still teach at namdahari akhara in Birmingham. I think they are teaching at Khalsa Jatha Gurdwara in London?? I think that their tactis have changed i.e. not having Nidar teaching, as far as I know it is his chela Teja Singh teaching at Khalsa jatha gurdwara in London. Also they have opened a class in Smethwick again I do not think that Nidar is teraching but one of his chele. I am not sure about sheperds bush gurdwara? It shouldn't really matter, they will still preach the same twisted sanatan hindu sikh philosophy - as all branches come from the same source! The commitees at these gurdwara's need to be informed of their twisted ideology, which they push onto young impressionable minds. wjkk wjkf

Just got Sikh new year info from facebook, i just wanted to share with all for awareness purposes not that there is anything to wrong with celebrating happy new year based on georgian calendar..we can celebrate both..!! Here is more info on Sikhs new year: source: http://www.facebook.com/groups/325967074166573/

The latest news is that singh marched to gurudwara in LA. The management called police.Dhundha fled the scene.

275 years old is what the caption reads. Anyone know more? http://imgur.com/2sJ4a

I'm pretty sure the Gurus would have wanted his Sikhs to use the same critical thinking faculty that they had used.

its the date we use in the world. regardless of jesus and his circumsision date, our world works on this system. so we ask maharaj to make it a good one. if i lived in a place that had new years in june i'd ask for a good new year.

I am not defending rajputs. The reason I mentioned the rajputs is because as cowardly as they were against the invaders from the north west, but still they were the most dominating caste of punjab even though they had become muslims. But then out of daya Guru made us lowly peasents into his sikhs and turned us former victims into the most dominating force in punjab. Even the mighty pathan warriors could not stand against the Sikhs. This miracle could have only happened because of the daya and kirpa of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. Being jat simply had nothing to do with our rise.

EXACTLY!!! Thank you! I will give my own gurdwara as an example. Majority of the sangat are bania and afghani Sikhs. The Afghani Sikhs tried to separate and make their own gurdwara, but the town shot it down because of zoning violations. LOL. The Kambojs also tried to make their own gurdwara, but they couldn't raise enough money. They were gonna name it after Shaheed Udham Singh. I had a joke with my Kamboj friends that we would have to stop being friends since our families would be going to different gurdwaras. Dasmesh Pita told us to drop our caste surnames and use Singh and Kaur. If you are using a caste surname, then you have no right to criticize any other caste. Fix yourself first.

I will admit a lot of Jatts do think they are better then others simply for being Jatt, not all though. Both sides are to blame. The whole caste thing is getting more and more out of control. Even among young Amritdharis caste cancer is still rampant. Mix that with "interjatha/samparda's cultish tribalism"...it makes you think what will be left of our Panth?? WLS made a brilliant point when he said... Chamaars and Tarkhans have made their own songs out of hankaar. They have misunderstood the meaning of Jatt in the old songs which refer to Punjabi folk tales. But having said that, some of it is down to todays Jatts being hankaari themselves and boasting about being Jatt without knowing the first thing about it. Yes Jatts are not perfect nor are any of the other castes. But, historically Jatts have been the most pakke Sikhs. Sadly this is no longer the case, no one can claim to be a pakka Sikh. No caste, no jathebandi...no one. We all need to change our attitudes. Why are we arguing over caste?? Lets try to envision what Dashmesh Pita did when they created the Khalsa.

Are you serious??? It was a Jatt who was sitting on the throne of Khalsa Raj. Us dumb gullible Jatts were able to accomplish what you guys couldn't. Dogras weren't Jatts, and they sold us out to the British. Selling-out seems to be a repeating theme. Master Tara Singh wasn't a Jatt. The most foolish and gullible leader in Sikh history, who chose to join Punjab with India after Nehru charmed him. Non-Jatts are the biggest Congress Party cheleh. They kiss the behinds of the same party that killed their brothers and raped their sisters. Sarna brothers and Dikshit are buddies. They have convinced Congress party to intervene in Sikh affairs and alter the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Act. You see, selling-out is a repeating theme.

I agree wholeheartedly that Jattism has gotten out of control. I said this before on this thread. However, don't you think some of the haughtiness is a reaction to urban Sikhs looking down on the rural Sikhs of Punjab? There are non-Jatt Sikhs in from Delhi who choose to speak Hindi over Punjabi because they think it is more eloquent. They look at Punjabi Bhangra culture as some sort of drunken debauchery, which is precisely how it has been described by some on this forum. This Jatt vs Bhappa issue came up after partition. When both sides looked at their new neighbors with suspicion. You can't blame Jatts if non-Jatts have started using drugs. Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to become druggies. If they do drugs, it's because they are weak minded. It doesn't matter if they are Jatt or something else. That leads me to the issue of blaming Jatts for everything that is wrong in Punjabi society. For example, people say that Jatts pushed the Dalits out of Sikhi. I will admit that we had a big role in doing that, but the rest of you have your hands dirty too. I don't see you guys inviting Dalits into your Gurdwaras. You guys have built gurdwaras to cater to your own castes. If you would join together, then you would outnumber Jatts by a lot. But, none of you wants to take on any responsibility. Just keep blaming Jatts. There was a video posted on this forum earlier, of a Gurdwara in Delhi called Ramgharia Sabha, or something like that. This gurdwara rented it's darbar to Hindus to do pooja worship or something. This is a repeating theme in UK, where we hear about Ramgharia and Labana gurdwaras renting out party halls. What if we started saying that you guys are sell-outs who only care about counting your money? A big over-generalization wouldn't you say?

Haha you think i am a bhappa? For your info, I was born into a jatt family. But i am proud to say that I lost that caste distinction when with Guru jees apaar kirpa I took amrit and joined the Khalsa brotherhood. The reason I mentioned the kanjar connection to bhangra is when some jatts here began to claim that bhangra was some how an authentic part of the old jatt culture which of course is a myth. Sadly this transition from the old jatt culture to the modern semi kanjar culture happaned around the time of the partition. Things still were not this bad until the sikh immigrants in the uk took kanjar culture to a whole new level to the modern bhangra culture we see today that is falsely being called authentic jat culture. Ask your grand parents and they will also confirm what i say. Jatt women during olden times had some sharam. They would never shamelessly dance infront of men like the modern jattis do on the dance floor. During olden times it was kanjris who did this and that too for money. But the modern jatti has lost all sharam and she will do this for free! And beghairat are the men who allow their wife, sister and daughter to dance around like this in front of other men. If this is the state of jatt culture now, I shudder think how low jatt culture will go in the next 50 years.

I get that, they aren't representing Sikh values. But to try and pass the buck and pretend that these guys have no connection to wider Sikh society, which, like it or not, isn't, nor has EVER been made up of purely strictly practicing 'perfect' Sikhs is plain cowardice and shirking of responsibility. It IS wider Sikh societies duty to look after their own wayward and lost. And it's a shame that some of you more 'perfect' brothers and sisters like to bury your heads to this responsibility.

For longest time, i also wanted to know my past life but i came to understanding - sikhi encourages whatever happened in the past life- don't pay much attention to it that the human life is precious and we got this human life after countless of reincarnations of various animals/ghost/spirits etc..So we need to appreciate this human life and keep moving fwd for milaap with vahiguroo and keep doing good karams. There is a reason why kids after age of two forget all about their past life naturally so human can go fwd. I think knowing your past life may sometimes solves dilemma and riddle battling with one's mind but for the most part it just open whole lot of can of worms which you may not be able to handle (don't ask for something which you cannot handle..!!) ..one also will start living in the past rather than present.!!! For eg- if one goes through 100 past lives through regression, there are major chances one will start living in the past than present or future..!! So yeah in short- don't ask for something which you cannot handle..!!!

i see lot of qintu parantu /Questioning if you are to learn something you must empty your cup or you wont be able to get anything

Could someone with a registered wikipedia account go and edit the Nihang page so it says "mythical sea creature" rather than "crocodile" ref : see page 2 West London Singh 's comment :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect:

I wasn't calling all music a stench. Just the crappy stuff that has dense people drinking stupidly and imagining themselves to be greater than they are. Simple.

. Those cycles of folk songs aren't exactly 'literary' because they were generally oral traditions not written ones. So get that straight in your head firstly. Also pop your head into the V&A Islamic section one day soon and you can see a jar from the modern day Iraq area with the Heer Ranjha story referenced on it - that predates the birth of Baba Nanak by a few centuries. So there is a very strong case of some Panjabis 'appropriating' an Arab or Persian tale and them homogenising as some 'Jatt' story. Your 'metaphoric' reading is a modern day construct, probably from your own personal imagination. We had Guru Amar Das Ji start the masand system himself, which, when it became a hindrance to progress and unity was uncompromisingly discarded and rejected by Guru Gobind Singh. The point being that not all 'heritage' ends up positive, and that we have strong traditions of breaking away from things when they become distorted to the point of outright backwardness - initiated by our very Gurus themselves. So even if Panjabi folk music has its roots in 'classics', that doesn't justify clinging onto the rubbish it has metamorphed into, especially when it plays such a lewd role today with encouragements of getting p1ssed and amorous as well as solidifying and creating stronger caste fissures amongst Sikhs, who frankly can't afford to go down that path given the challenges they face in the 21st century.

Sorry but parts of that are completely untrue, to become a master of the sword takes a lifetime, very few could ever be considered masters of the sword..hence why akali nihangs, bhujangis etc were considered to be higher rank and very few in number compared to your basic soldiers with basic weaponry skills. Swordsmanship is a higher level skill, lower rank soldiers used club,mace,staff,daggers etc.. Nihangs were full time soldiers who led a nomadic lifestyle , most other Sikhs were part timers they had their ancestoral trades and in some cases were only trained in basic techniques to protect their own villages. Horsemanship or ghor swal is again an art form in its own right not all had knowledge of this skill foot soldiers etc..

Just be careful and do your research on the person. There are plenty of Sikhs who are actually married on here, yet none have given their advice lol.

duKu dwrU suKu rogu BieAw jw suKu qwim n hoeI ] dhukh dhaaroo sukh rog bhaeiaa jaa sukh thaam n hoee || Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God. ang 469 You can read all the Gurbani you want, but it all depends on what you want in life. If you want worldly things then you will always be depressed. No doubt Gurbani heals all mental and physical wounds, especially Sukhmani Sahib. However Gurbani teaches the essence to life is to live for Maharaj. The above tuk can be understood in the most simplest way. When we fall (get depressed) then we remember God to help us out and when God gives us everything then we don't even say God's name by mistake. Go deeper with this tuk by asking yourself what is true pleasure and true suffering? Gursikhs will tell you even though they practice rehat to the fullest and are singing Maharaj's name 24/7, they are still suffering because their atma and God have not become one; are closer, but they don't want closer, they want Maharaj. Everyone else looks at them and says, what they got to worry about........Maharaj has done so much kirpa on them.........you don't need to do seva and simran all day...........we can take breaks. To truly understand Gurbani we need to step outside of ourselves (not follow, ignore the mind) and jump into Guru Sahib's lap (understand we are children of Maharaj and have no knowledge about how to live).

Osinghji, I think you are correct in this manner. I have just looked into this 'void' focus used in other meditation yogas and I realise that is NOT gurmat or exactly what i'm talking about. I honestly felt that I was trying to describe an easier method of doing it and I realise that I am just infact 'eliminating all thoughts and feelings in an instance and bringing ALL focus onto Waheguru. I also realise that my way of description can give the wrong impression because the void is not the idea at all in gurmat. It is quite difficult to describe how exactly these thoughts get removed but one thing is for sure and that is 'Amrit Vela' I can confirm that no matter what time of day I try to do simran, nothing comes anywhere near to amrit vela. The anand you get at that heavenly time is just not possible at any other time in my current day to day life. I also find it is the majic hour where I can easily remove all my external thoughts completely in a flash much easier. If I ever miss it at amrit vela or it is done after 5.30 am, then I feel regret all day long. Because personally, I feel that I should be up by 3am so that I can do at least 2 to 2.5 hours. I also feel that it has transformed me and helped mould me into a better and calmer person. In fact, I worry so little about anything that even if something disastrous is going on in my life, I am so calm and co-ordinated that my wife worries if something is actually wrong with me!! - She feels worried about why I am not worried or distessed !!!! My biggest regret is why I didn't start simran a long time ago. I really wish that I had gone this way earlier in my past as I wouldn't have made the same mistakes.

No nihangs were before Khalsa... Unless they were niddar nangs ancestors!! Something niddar would say... With the Khalsa came sant sipahi miriyada and hence nihungs

The way I see it is someone's jeevan, whether they are or aren't a Sikh, is more important. If someone has prem for Waheguru/God/Ram/Allah and does kirat kamai I think it's okay to eat from them. I don't follow strict bibek though so I can be wrong.

I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but you made two new points that I didn't see earlier. First NEW point: "my kids are just having fun and i don't want to spoil their fun." You spoke like many parents would react, thinking they are doing the best for their kids. However we can look at the lives of Gursikhs in the 80's to the lives of the sons of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. Gursikhs kids and Guru Sahibs kids grew up in a environment where other religions festivals where up and going in full swing and obviously their kids were well aware of these festivals. However none of their kids participated in holi. Throwing colors on each other.........there is no greater fun for a kid. But Satguru didn't allow this practice and instead told his Sikhs along with his sons to participate in a Sikh event. Was this bad parenting on Satguru's part? Never, this was the best parenting in all of creation. There are other examples, but the one example presented delivers the message home very clearly. Second NEW point: about other religious people come to celebrate with Sikhs in Sikh celebrations. Simple, that is there choice and if their religion tells them not to, then they should follow their religion. Sikhs don't make a person bow before Guru Sahib. If they don't want to bow and just want to sit and listen, then go right ahead. For Sikhs they can't participate in any type of idol worship. Whether you want to recognize it or not, you among others like Hazoor are willfully blind. You're ignoring the facts, which Gurbani lays out and then are intentionally not wanting to know what a Christmas tree at this time of the year represents. Solutions to first new point: Instead of decorating a tree, get a small palki made which your kids can deocrate and then place shastar on this palki. Then sing Shastar Naammala and other Banis from Dasam Bani. Your kids will not feel left out and they will learn about Sikhi. Incoporate into this how the two older sons of Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj used shastars to fight for what is righteous. This will paint a picture for your kids and they will develop a new yearning to learn how to use shastars.

Hi! I'm from Texas and I was wondering if anyone volunteer to help me practice my nitnem everyday? I keep going through phrases when I'm very disciplined and and then I fall out of it when life gets busy. But I know there isn't an excuse. I know I may be asking alot- someone to remind me and encourage me, call me and recite nitnem with me everyday...just until I can do it on my own..but I'm sure I could help motivate you too! I really love our sikhi path!...and I just want to be consistent with it in my daily routine. Anyone? Please?