Singhs taking opium in Gur sobha granth

[Akalifauj]

4 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

You can't change historical fact. 

I think someone like yourself would actually detest many of your own warrior ancestors who fought and died to make sure this thing survived. 

I told you before to post that whole shabad so we could read it in context. But you obviously don't want to. 

The whole shabad doesn't need to be posted because its already understood in context.  For everyone info, dolly is originally from an atheist forum that refers to themselves as sikh forum.  So he is a atheist at heart pretending to be a Sikh.  

Bhagat kabir has laid out the context and said it perfectly.   

[dallysingh101]

9 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

The whole shabad doesn't need to be posted because its already understood in context.  For everyone info, dolly is originally from an atheist forum that refers to themselves as sikh forum.  So he is a atheist at heart pretending to be a Sikh.  

Bhagat kabir has laid out the context and said it perfectly.   

Your mum is an atheist pretending to be Sikh more like. You going to have one of your babyish crying fits again puppoo?

These giddarhs don't want to analyse the whole shabad because it would demolish their own argument. 

Bhagat Kabir didn't write these pangtis (possibly before Baba Nanak in that form was pargat into the world), as some 'rehat-like' commandments for Khalsa Sikhs like these neo-abrahamics are suggesting. These guys are protestant xtians at heart, stuck in some victorian time loop.

Read the whole shabad yourselves and see the context. 

No one is suggesting or encouraging the use of any psychotropics for recreational use here (at least not me), but if you have an Indic or Panjabi background, don't be oblivious to the fact that certain (now much maligned) plant based compounds were part and parcel of the indigenous plant based medical system of the region. The west have always exploited this knowledge (i.e. developing morphine, oxycontin, codeine, sativax, cbd oils etc. etc. etc. the list could go on), it's about time some of you neo-abrahamic 'Sikhism'' bods woke up to this. I think, some of the compounds under discussion can be useful for various medical conditions - our ancestors believed the same, we shouldn't be ignorant to this. We might have treatments for some conditions that have less side effects than pharmaceutical equivalents. 

And to some of you modern day puppoos. I think we'd be better off having more of the type of Singhs of old that some of you are maligning than useless cowards like yourself. 

[GurjantGnostic]

9 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

The whole shabad doesn't need to be posted because its already understood in context.  For everyone info, dolly is originally from an atheist forum that refers to themselves as sikh forum.  So he is a atheist at heart pretending to be a Sikh.  

Bhagat kabir has laid out the context and said it perfectly.   

Lol bold claims. God you're smarmy as anything, condescending too. 

[IshR]

On 9/29/2019 at 10:23 PM, dallysingh101 said:

You can't change historical fact. 

I think someone like yourself would actually detest many of your own warrior ancestors who fought and died to make sure this thing survived. 

I told you before to post that whole shabad so we could read it in context. But you obviously don't want to. 

I think you meant “You can’t change historical accounts” 

A “fact” is by definition the truth. 

Not all historical accounts are true nor indeed accurate. 

You can find many accounts written in very recent history which state the earth is flat. Many delusional individuals today still believe the earth is flat! These individuals continue to write literature stating the earth is flat. These people are just like you. They believe what they want to believe and call it ‘fact’.
 

Bhai chaupa singh rehatmaryada states women are not to be baptised from panj pyare. Does this make it true? Is it not possible that the account was altered or corrupted? There are many such examples, which is why there is so much conflict in the Panth.

Our warrior ancestors did not alcohol or other drugs to cope with fear. 
Such a statement is insulting to all the brave shaheeds. Any coward can take drugs and perform ‘acts of bravery’ but it’s anything but brave, it’s cowardice. 

Being brave is about facing your fear not drowning it in alcohol (liquid courage) or other intoxicants.

In fact gurbani states a true warrior in this age is one who is coloured in the love of god. Those who meditate on the fearless one (nirbhou) become fearless themselves. 

It’s a disgrace to suggest such gurmukh shaheeds who were intoxicated with god required other intoxicants / opioids to function in battle.

[dallysingh101]

12 hours ago, IshR said:

Our warrior ancestors did not alcohol or other drugs to cope with fear. 
Such a statement is insulting to all the brave shaheeds. Any coward can take drugs and perform ‘acts of bravery’ but it’s anything but brave, it’s cowardice. 

The use of afeem or sukha are likely to have been medicinal, not to cope with fear. Besides no one is saying each and every Singh took them. And no one is suggesting recreational use. Probably some Ayurvedic understanding of the substances? 

Quote

It’s a disgrace to suggest such gurmukh shaheeds who were intoxicated with god required other intoxicants / opioids to function in battle.

Let someone stab you a couple of times and then see if you could do without some form of anesthetic. 

 

[dallysingh101]

12 hours ago, IshR said:

These people are just like you. They believe what they want to believe and call it ‘fact’.

I think these people are more like you myself.

The way people like yourself go on, is like I personally time travelled to go back and write these things in the granths myself. Well, I didn't. And I just try and make sense of my people's history - using contemporary source material - instead of recreating according to my own whims.  It's you that can't accept the 'fact' that these things are written in the granths. Same way some people don't want to accept Charitrio Pakyaan because it doesn't conform to their already made up minds. 

I'm glad we've got such a rich history, and am thankful for all our ithihaasik granths because they are so interesting. That doesn't mean I believe or agree with every last thing within. But then I don't come apart at the seems at everything I don't understand or agree with therein. 

 

[chatanga1]

On 9/27/2019 at 9:40 PM, dallysingh101 said:

Katha vaachaks are mainly for pendus who can't be bothered to read in my opinion. Juts are the main lazy ones who hate reading. Are you one of those?

Bit harsh isn't it Dal lol?

I listen to katha a lot. I make it a routine to listen to one sakhi from Panth Parkash every time I workout, or doing some gardening etc. But I like to read the granths myself at other times. There are sometimes passages that need a little more explanation than the straight textual translation and katha is where it helps.

 

 

On 9/29/2019 at 7:39 PM, IshR said:

The sources which support your desire to use drugs and eat meat are corrupted. Throughout the years people have wanted to corrupt, twist and change sikhi for various reasons.

Some are motivated by the wish to create division in the sikh panth or to bring Sikhism under the umbrella of Hinduism. Others are motivated by the need to justify personal desires such as use of meat and drugs.

Such sources are clouded by doubt.

There is one source however which as sikhs we must not doubt....our guru...Siri Guru Granth Sahib who says - 

 

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine.

 

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

 

SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI - 1377 
SALOK KABEER JEE BHAGAT KABEER JI

There are some passages from Guru Granth Sahib which are at odds with each other and Gurmat as we know it today. For instance

Kes is one of the 5 ks and primary nishani of a Sikh yet Bhagat Kabir writes:

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.

ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥ You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||

 

On 3/16/2021 at 8:26 PM, IshR said:

Our warrior ancestors did not alcohol or other drugs to cope with fear. 
Such a statement is insulting to all the brave shaheeds. Any coward can take drugs and perform ‘acts of bravery’ but it’s anything but brave, it’s cowardice. 

Being brave is about facing your fear not drowning it in alcohol (liquid courage) or other intoxicants.

In fact gurbani states a true warrior in this age is one who is coloured in the love of god. Those who meditate on the fearless one (nirbhou) become fearless themselves. 

It’s a disgrace to suggest such gurmukh shaheeds who were intoxicated with god required other intoxicants / opioids to function in battle.

 

How many Sikhs do you think reached this standard? Gurbani itself says that rare are those who realised Sri Akal Purkh. So although we have sakhia of Bhai Mani Singh etc  Baba Deep Singh etc without mentioning in any way that they took afeem, there is a mention of Sikhs taking afeem from 1711 all the way up to 1840s.

In those times, afeem and bhang, (opiates and cannabis) were used by armies a lot. the Moghals and Turks used it because their empire was large and they needed to cover large distances quickly without tiring. Whole armies would consume bhang to help them do this. Armies would consume bhang to reduce the effects of tiredness before battles.

My relative told that in Panjab sometimes biharis would be given bhang to get them through a hard days physical work.

Opiates (used today by armies in the refined form of morphine) were widely used for those soldiers who suffered battle injuries. Soldiers would recieve slash wounds, stabbing wounds and severed fingers/hands/arms. These are horrific injuries to suffer and opiates played a huge part in the nursing of such injuries.

 

On 3/17/2021 at 8:18 AM, dallysingh101 said:

The use of afeem or sukha are likely to have been medicinal, not to cope with fear. Besides no one is saying each and every Singh took them. And no one is suggesting recreational use. Probably some Ayurvedic understanding of the substances? 

Let someone stab you a couple of times and then see if you could do without some form of anesthetic. 

 

I agree. Panth Parkash doesn't cover any yudh saying the Sikhs were fearful. It goes the other way and says that Singhs were actively looking for warfare. Today some Sikhs think that the medicines we have today were there in the Guru's times. But why get someone to stab you? they could go to jail for that. He should stab himself to feel the effect.

This video explains a lot about afeem and its puratan uses.

 

 

[Arsh1469]

I am joining in to say that Sant Gurbachan Singh and like all of Taksal don't believe the Guru took opium. I am not sure about there take on other drugs. I will come back with more information.

[Arsh1469]

Sant Ji believes that Guru Ji took no types of narcotics and believes that the Guru also didn't eat meat. Here is the katha

 

[Arsh1469]

Ok ao it seems Sant Jarnail Singh believes the Guru took Shaedai (Shaheedi degh) though Sant Gurbachan didn't. Though he believes that the Guru did not take afeem. I personally agree with Sant Jarnail Singh and Sant Gurbachan Singh as my Sikh view is very sampardamic. I agree alot with Nirmala and their sub divisions like Taksal.