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Take a week or so to go through all that has been fed to you. Don't jump already. There is a lot coming your way so get ready to get busy. Make sure to go through what Gurbani says about Islamic practices. I expected way too much from your reading skills as well as speed. Anyways, keep going my friend. We'll talk soon, possibly next week or before once you're done reading/watching/listening. Until then, I guess we won't have much to talk about. See you around.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH! As a result of continous attacks happening on our Guru, the Khalsa has decided to do the following. (3 attacks have happened in the past week on Gurdwaras in India) At Guru Nanak Gurdwara Sahib Smethwick, Singhs will be organising a pehredaar jatha (security team) which will operate on Akhand Paaths to protect Guru Ji and the sangat as attacks are rising as Kaljug is coming closer to its heights. Any Sikh who wants to do seva on weekends at Guru Nanak Gurdwara Sahib Smethwick to protect Guru Ji should private message or post here. Any Sangat wanting Seva of other West Bromwich, Handsworth, Olbury or other local Gurdwara Sahib can contact here so we can sort out groups and shifts. ALL Gurdwara Sahibs across the world now should start off pehras especially when Akhand Paaths are on as we do not want to see any more beadbi. End OF. Time to defend Khalsa style. Tyaar bar Tyaar. VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH!

REHAT sMinAwsI bYrwgI jyvY AOr audwsI XogI qyvY jMgm vwmI Avr ju koeI qW kw jUTw kbI n lyeI ] sa(n)niaasee bairaagee jaevai aar oudhaasee yogee thaevai ja(n)gam vaamee avar j koee thaa(n) kaa joot(h)aa kabee n laeee || Hermits, renouncers, Udhasis and Yogis; Celibates and other sects and faiths; never eat from the same plate. Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee http://sikhitothemax.com/Rehat.asp?ID=33

I don't know if Kirpal Das Jee was an Udasin when he fought under the 10th master, but what a sight it must have been to see him strike Hayat Khan like this that even Guru Jee wrote about this in his Pavitar Bani. What type of weapon did Kirpal Das Jee use here? was it a mace?

Lets wait for the facts to emerge. Remember a few years back of a similar case in Scotland? after a few days the boy admitted to cutting his own hair. We also had a similar incident in our pind where 2 brothers hatched a plan and after claimed bhoot had cut their kesh.

Look here you sick example of an arrogant convert-seeking loser out to wage his cyber-Jihad on Sikhs...a.k.a Auzer Don't ignore my condition to discuss Sikhi by calling it retarded. Dhikr/Zikr is again Sufism, not mainstream Islam. One of my best friends was a Sufi and a regular practitioner of Zikr, and would in fact do "muraqbah", which I only later found out was the same as what Sikhs call Naam Abhiyaas (go read some books by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh ji). So quit lecturing me on how mainstream Islam preaches Zikr, it doesn't, although Sufism (the condemned shade of Islam as per mainstream fundamentalists) does. Did I burst your bubble? Are you waking up to the fact that you were following something wrong all along? And mark my words, I am not under any inferiority complex, not from some random convert-seeker like yourself. YOU are the one coming on a Sikh forum acting all scholarly and doesn't even possess a clear info on his own faith. Or did you read the wrong set of books this time? Don't keep whining again and again about "I never talked about Islam", "I never brought Islam into the discussion". You're not the first Muslim coming on here with proselytizing intentions. There have been scores like you under different disguises in the past. All met their fate ultimately, and your time is coming sooner than you can imagine. Did you bother reading any of the links I sent earlier? I started an entire thread with links for you to break your head over, you done already? Here it is: http://www.sikhsanga...__fromsearch__1 . I know you love to read but even you can't read that much material in a few hours. You seem to have some sort of superiority complex (or rather paranoia) about being "well-read" it seems. Were you raised to believe that all Sikhs are illiterate fools? Because I've seen this trait in many Paki-Punjabis, even though they never made it past high school themselves. Every now and then it reflects in your posts "we have all studied biology, well I hope lol". Who you think you are?Pakistani version of Einstein? Ok, so you want a mature post, right? Here is my response to your original question. There is enough scientific research done to prove that our teeth are made to be herbivorous. Now since you say you're very well-informed, lets presume you're right. Perhaps we do have a built-in feature that can eat/digest meat as well. But we also have a built-in animal instinct that brings forth the brute force to kill another human being and eat him/her up as well. Why did God give us that sort of strength? God gives us things for a reason, so do we start preying on other human beings? Just because we have this kind of feature in us (according to you), doesn't mean we become the judges on how its to be used. Bhagat Kabeer jee here considers killing any living being as unrighteous action. Some who eat favor meat eating go ahead and ask "what about plants?" That is another topic which I don't want to divulge into as it would break out into a meat debate (something the Sikhsangat.com rules and guidelines don't really gel with). Well known scholars like Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha have translated bẖāʼng as meat, although some other scholars are content is accepting its translation as the regular "bhang" drink. There is a detailed discussion on what you're looking for over here: Hope that helps. Let us know if it doesn't, and your next question/thread will be awaited.

if you have studied biology, you may know about evoloution. now, we humans evolved from other species, these were animals that were omnivores. so baisically nulls adam and eve, we aren't a special thing. our ancestors ate meat so have these teeth etc. so, as we developed thought and an intellect to think eating animals is wrong etc. and we can survive off fruits eating animals causes pain etc we sympathise with animals hair has alot of benefits vitamin d allows us to stand out.

Auzer, If you studied biology then you should be aware of Human Vestigiality. That's organs whose original function has been made redundant through evolution and which might have taken on new functions. The tailbone and appendix are the most famous example of this. So humans have evolved from meat eaters to vegetarians and for vegetarians the canine teeth are not needed for their diet and yet their body still retains them. As Sikhism has no issues with human evolution unlike Islam, there is no issue with Sikhs being vegetarians are still retaining their canines. But in Islam, as Allah created humans as they are now, unless you believe the ridiculous hadith that Adam's height was 60 feet tall, the presence of organs being present and yet not required is an issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emyJMkPV4fA&feature=related Why are we turning a blind eye to all this? There were 292,800 Christians in whole Punjab in 2001 (census). Now there are 900,000. Thats what they say, exaggerated figures? Yes maybe, but their numbers have atleast doubled. One guy named Harbhajan Sion (in videos too) alone convert 2800 people from his village.

Here are some resources you might find useful to gain knowledge about Sikhi. http://whyichosesikhism.com/ http://searchsikhism.com/islam.html http://www.searchsikhism.com/si3.html http://rampurkhera.com/audiobooks/Se_Kinehiya-ENGLISH/chapter-063.mp3 Others please add more. Our friend is blessed with the habit of reading a lot. I wish I had that kind of patience and time to revive my long lost love of reading as I did in childhood. Auzer, please make sure you read everything. If in doubt, please get back to us. We are not scholarly like yourself (or rather, as you claim to be) but can try to respond.

This isn't from Tapoban.org, but instead is a 3rd person balanced analytic and historical view based on Sikh history and literature on the Udasis and Nirmalas. In my next post I will attach some interesting ithihaasic pictures contrasting the changing of the Udasis. The Udasis by Hugh Mcleod The Earliest of these sects is unquestionably that of the Udasis, though its importance is historic rather than contemporary. Modern sikhism is generally opposed to asceticism and for that reason alone it has little place for the Udasis. This was not always the case. Prior to the period of the Singh Sabha movement (the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries), the Udasi way enjoyed considerable prestige, and under the Sikh rulers of the Punjab its practitioners were recipients of substantial land grants. The eclipse of asceticism in general and of the Udasis in particular reflects the convictions of the Tat Khalsa. Today one finds few Udasi centres, the yogis of the Udasi way being banished to the outer fringes of the Sikh Panth. Many Sikhs refuse to accept them as their co-religionists. The Udasis were an ascetic group, claiming descent from Siri Chand (one of Guru Nanak's two sons) and following the path of renunciation (udas). Their austerities, their celibacy and their refusal to acknowledge such practices as keeping their hair uncut made them very different from the Khalsa, but they nevertheless maintained they were Sikhs. Although they recognized the line of ten Gurus from Nanak to Gobind Singh the Udasis were much more interested in the chain of succession, which descended from Siri Chand down to the reigning Mahant (Superior)of the branch they followed. They revered the Adi Granth, imparting to its teachings a distinctly Hindu twist. Like other Sikhs they wrote commentaries on particular portions of the Sikh scripture, together with janam-sakhis and gur-bilas works. Never uniform in terms of organization or doctrine, the Udasis numbered more than a dozen orders by the end of Sikh rule in 1849. By this tirne they had more than 250 akharas or centres. They were respected by the early Panth, particularly as Gurditta (the eldest son of Guru Hargobind) evidently favoured them. During the eighteenth century they were not targeted by the rulers, as were the orthodox Khalsa, with the result that many gurdwaras evldently passed into their care. Certainly the mahants of the late nineteenth century frequently claimed an Udasi descent, though their lifestyle was by this time very different from that of the traditional Udasis. Khalsa Sikhs, as we have seen, became increasingly uneasy about Udasi authority over gurdwaras, and during the Gurdwara Reform Movement of the early 1920s all the so-called Udasis were summarily ejected from positions of control.' The turning-point of the campaign came in 1921 when the Mahant of Nankana Sahib (who had declared himself to be an Udasi) caused the massacre of a large group of Akalis, an event that branded all Udasis as the enemies of the true Khalsa. During Singh Sabha days they had been targeted by the Tat Khalsa as prime examples of Hindu influence and are now but the palest shadow of their earlier wealth and power. http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/Udasis/rr4.jpg Mahant Anantanad Maharaj of the Udasin Akhara, Amritsar. (Photo courtesy Raghu Rai - "The Sikhs") The following detailed account of the Udasis has been taken from the book by H.A.Rose - "A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and the North-West Frontier Province." written around 1892 AD Udasi.-Syn. Nanak-putra: the principal religions order of the Sikhs. The Udasis are almost certainly the oldest of the Sikh orders, and trace their foundation to Sri Chand,1 the elder son cf Guru Nanak. 'The term 'Udasi' means a sorrow' or sadness, from Sanskrit Udas, 'sad' and their separation, which has sometimes been wrongly termed excommunication, by the 3rd Guru', Amar Das, is described in Vol.1 under Sikhism. 'this separation is sometimes ascribed to Guru' Arjan. The Udasi tenets, though largely tinctured with Hindu asceticism, found many proselytes among the descendants and followers of the orthodox Guru's, and Har Gobind,the 6th Guru, bestowed Gurditta,2 his eldest son on Sri Chand. Gurditta had four disciples who founded as many chapters (dhuan) of the order. These were Baba3 Hasan, PhuI4, Gonda5 and Almast 6, whose followers constitute the bara akhara, or senior assembly. Pheru, a disciple of Har Rai, the 7th Guru', established another chapter, called the chhota akhara 7 The Uddasis are celibate, at least in theory, and when so in practice are called Udasi Nanga or' naked.' But Maclagan gives a different explanation of this term as will - be seen from the following extract from his account of the order -" The Udasi's are recruited from all castes and will eat food from any Hindu. They are almost always celibates, and are sometimes,though not usually, congregated in monasteries. They are generally found wandering to and from their sacred p laces, such as Amritsar, Dera Nanak, Kartarpur, and the like. They are said to be numerous in Malwa and in Benares. In our Census returns they appear strongest in Jullundur, Rohtak, and Ferozepnr. It is a mistake to say that they are not generally recognised. as Sikhs ; they pay special reverence to the Adi-granth, but also respect the Granth of Gobind Singh, and attend the same shrines as the Sikhs generally. Their service consists of a ringing of bells and blare of instruments and chanting of hymns and waving of lights before the Adi granth and the picture of Baba Nanak. They are, however, by no means uniform in their customs. Some wear long hair, some wear matted locks, and others cut their hair. Some wear tilaks or caste-marks; others do not. Some burn the dead in the ordinary Hindu way; some after burning erect samadhs or monuments; other, apparently bury the dead. They are for the most part ascetics, but some are said to be engaged in ordinary secular pursuits. The ordinary dress of the ascetics is of a red colour, but a large section of them go entirely naked, except for the waistcloth, and rub ashes over their bodies. These, like the naked sections of other orders1 are known as Nange; they pay special reverence to the ashes with which they smear their bodies, and which are said to protect them equally from either extreme of temperature. Their most binding oath is on a ball of ashes. In Ludhiana the Udasis are described as mostly Jats by origin, the chela or disciple and successor, being usually chosen from this tribe and are found to be in possession of the dharamsalas in Hindu villages, where they distribute food to such as come for it and read the granth both of Baba Nanak and of Guru Gobind Singh although they do not attach much importance to the latter. The head of the college is called a mahant and the disciples chelas. They live in Sikh as well as in Hindu villages, and it is probably on this account that they do not quite neglect Guru Gobind Singh. They rarely marry; and if they do so, generally lose all influence, for the dharmsala soon becomes a private residence closed to strangers. But in some few families, such as that. of Jaspal Bangar, which keeps a large langar or almshouse going, it has always been the custom to marry, the endowments being large enough to support the family and maintain the institutions; but the eldest son does not in this case succeed as a matter of course. A chela is chosen by the Mahant, or by the family. If a mahant whose predecessors have not married should do so, he would lose all his weight with the people. The great shrine at Dera Baba Nanak, in the Gurdaspur district is in the custody of a community of Udasi Sadhs, whose mahant used to be appointed with the consent of the Bedis Another shrine at the same place, known as Tahli Sahib, froom a large Tahli or Shisham tree, which grew close to it, was founded by Sri Chand, and is also looked after by mahants of the Udasi order." http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/Udasis/srichnad3.jpg Baba Dharam Chand Ji with his 2 sons Baba Manak Chand and Baba Mehar Chand Another chapter of the Udasi order, said sometimes to be one of the four dhua'n, is called the Bhagat Bhagwan. Once Bhagatgir, a Sanni-asi going on a pilgrimage to Hinglaj, with a band of disciplea, and visited Baba Nanak's dera on his way. Nanak's grandson, Dharm Chand, poured food into the howl of Bhagatgir, who had asked to be served first, but it was not filled. A pinch of karah prasad, however, given with the words, 'Sri Waheguru', filled the bowl at once. The visitors kept a vigil before the dera and the goddess Hinglaj appeared to them, so that the object of their pilgrimage was attained. Bhagatgir then became Dharm Chand's convert, as did all his followers, under the name of Bhagat Bhagwan. The great akhara of the sect is by the Bibiksar tank at Amritsar, but it also has akharas at Ladda, Bareily, Magla, Rajgiri, Patna and Bihar, with 870 gaddis in Eastern India. The Bhagat Bhagwans wear the Jatta or matted hair, with a chain round the waist, and smear themselves with ashes like Sanniassis. In their belief, and in their rules as to eating and the like they follow Nanak's precepts. The Sangat Sahib also appears to be a chapter of the Udasi order, though it is not one of the four dhuans. In Sambat 1697 a son was born to Binna, an Uppal Khatri of Ambmari in the pargana of Miske Naur,* between Lahore and Multan. The boy was named Pheru, and in 1713 he became cook to Guru' Har Rai, who taught him and invested him with the seli and topi and sent him as a masand to the Lamma (his native country - simply means WEST) and the Nakka (towards Shahpur) where he made converts. When Guru Govind Singh destroyed the masands, by pouring hot oil on their heads, Sikhs were sent to seize Pheru, but non-dared do so, though he made no resistance. Seizing his own beard Pheru came of his own accord to the Guru' who, seeing his righteousness, gave him half his pagri and seated him by himself, promising that his sect should prosper. The Guru also gave him the title of Sangat Sahib or 'companion of the Guru and sent him back as mesand to the Lamma and Nakka where he made more converts. In 1896: the Sangat Sahib made a travelling akhara like the Udasis. One of their most noted disciples. Santokh Das, worked many miracles, and became an ascetic. This order is also said to be called Bakhahish Sangat Sahib in Patiala, where it is said to pay special reverence to the Adi Granth and to have an akhara of its own, separate from the four dhuans. Other accounts say that the Sangat Sahibia sub-order was founded by one Bhai Bhalu who was a Jat 'merchant' of the Malwa or a carpenter of Amritsar. When unregenerate he was a follower of Sultan Sakhi Sarwar, but was persuaded by Guru Govind Singh to abandon that cult. A large number of Jats, carpenters and Lohars are said to belong to this suborder. Besides a Gurdwara in Lahore it holds the Brahmbhut akhara at Amritsar. Another Udasi suborder is that of the Ramdas Udasis. Its founda-tion is ascribed to Gurditta (not the eldest son of Guru Hargobind but a grandson of Baba Bandha, one of Baba Nanak's converts ?). Gurditta was established by Guru Amardeo (?Amardas) on a gaddi at Ramdas, in the Ajnala tehsil of Amritsar, where there is a fine temple. The suborder also has deras at Nawekot, Muradabad and elsewhere. The Hiradasis of our Censas returns appear to be either named after a Mochi who joined the order or after a Bairagi saint of the Muzaffar-garh district. Each subdivision of the Udasis has a complete organisation for collect-ing and spending money, and is presided over by a principal mahant called Sri Mahant, with subordinate mahants under him. 1. Malcolm says Dharm Chand, clearly an error. 2. On a hill near Rawalpindi lived Budhan Shah, a Muhammadan faqir, to whom Baba Nanak had entrusted some milk till his successor should come to claim it. Seeing Gurditta approaching Budhan Shah begged him to assume Nanak's form. This Gurditta did and thereby earned the title and dignity of Baba: Maclagan, . He lived mainly at Kartarpur but died at Kiratpur where he has a handsome shrine. From another shrine there, called the Manji Sahib he is said to have shot an arrow which fell in the plain below at a place called Patalpuri., long used as a burning ground for the Sodhi Khatris. 3. Baba Hasna's shrine is at Charankaul, near Anandpur. 4. Phul Sahib's shrines are at Bahdurpur and Chinighat in Hoshiarpur. 5. Gonda Sahib is represented at Shikarpur in Sind and at the Sangalwala Gurdwara in Amritsar. 6, Almast Sahib is represented at Jagannath and Naini Tal: Maclagan, § 90. 7. This appears to be the Sangat Sahib. http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/Udasis/bhagat-ram.jpg Sri 108 Mahant Bhagat Ram of dera Dharam Das Ji Maharaj - village Bara Pind, Jalandhar. He installed this sculptor of Baba Siri Chand (BELOW)in 1921. This sculptor is over 112 years old. http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/Udasis/moorti.jpg Baba Sri Chand http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/Udasis/ghanshyamdas.jpg Sri 108 Mahant Baba Ghanshyam Das Ji http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/Udasis/pritamdas.jpg Sri 1008 Nirban Pritam Das Ji Maharaj of Akhara Sangal Wala, Amritsar http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/Udasis/sant-ren.jpg Mahan Kavi Sant Rein who wrote 'Guru Nanak Vijay Granth', the 3rd edition has been printed by Bhasha Vibhag, Punjab. http://<banned site filter activated>/movements/Udasis/tree.jpg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This article is given with courtesy of H. McLeod The Nirmalasa, like the Udasis, commanded considerable influence under the Sikh rulers of the Punjab, but unlike them they have been able to preserve at least a measure of that earlier respect. By tradition the Nirmala order was founded by Guru Gobind Singh, who dispatched five Sikhs to learn Sanskrit. This is highly improbable, and the Nirmala order is scarcely mentioned in Sikh literature until the late eighteenth century. At that time the references rapidly multiply, largely in land grants and religious endowments made by Sikh rulers. During the first four decades of the nineteenth century, the Nirmalas continued to prosper under Maharaja Ranjit Singh. As with the Udasis their centres were known as 'akharas', each headed by a mahant. Each akhara would accommodate varying numbers of celibate Nirmalas initiated by the mahant. Within it their time would be occupied in meditation, yoga and scriptural study. The books they were required to study would obviously include the Adi Granth, but they also spent much time on such Hindu works as the Vedas, the Shastras, Puranas and the Epics. Although the Nirmalas are accepted as a part of the Panth, ascetic discipline and the strongly Hindu nature of their study deviate sharply from the teachings of the Tat Khalsa. Members of the order wear saffron robes and observe celibacy, and the teachings they receive and impart are strongly Vedantic. As itinerant preachers, they did much to commend Sikh teachings beyond the Punjab (particularly in such centres of Hindu pilgrimage as Hardwar and Allahabad), and although some of their doctrines met with strong disapproval from Khalsa, they were regarded cordially by Sanatan Sikhs. In the controversies that enlivened Singh Sabha days, their fortunes declined with those of the Sanatan Sikhs, but never to the point of being totally eclipsed. They still exercise some influence within the Panth particularly in the Patiala area. Prominent writers like Bhai Santokh Singh, Tara Singh Narottam and Giani Gian Singh Ji were from this sect (Kanwal)

Teeek-yaaaaah I will check it out. Tension aali ki gall a, check karlenee aahhhh. :lol2: edit- It seems the mentioned tapoban forum has died. Rest in peace, PAL 07 remembers you and misses you very much. Source: http://www.tapoban.o...bforum/list.php

No he used a large wooden staff he used to make sukha - since he had no knowledge of shastar vidiya. It is important to note that because he had so much bhagti and introspection (from meditation) he was able to fight in the battle with great valour. singh559 - i dont know what to say about you, i think you would do great on tapoban forum

It is a well known fact that Baba Buddah Ji gave Sri Hargobind Ji the miri piri talwars and were there Ustad. Also Gurbani clearly states that Guru Nanak Dev Ji came to the world with knowledge of all the arts wheras previous avtars had limited knowledge i.e. Krishan had 16 guns and Ram Chandra had 14 and previous to him they all had less Gun. So to suggest Guru Nanak Dev Ji had no knowledge of shahstar vidiya would be incorrect. My opinion is that the term shastar vidiya is a generic term referring to many styles of martial arts. For example the term percussion can refer to Tabla, Pakhavaj, Mridang, Dhol etc. Gatka is the term referring to the Sikhi martial art form but this is derived from kalaripayattu which is an ancient martial form (see below) It is important to remember that a lot of Sikhism is infact been in existence since ancient times. For example the sangeet vidiya in Gurbani has been in existence way before the Guru's times. When you say Gatka today - the showbiz chopping up of melons comes to mind. But i believe that this is the result of years and years of decay of the true vidiya. In terms of gatka v shastar vidiya well first of all what exactly does shastar vidiya mean ?? martial arts taught in the army, jeet kun do, shaoilin martial arts? Personally if you look at good Gatka Ustads like Bhai Harjinder Singh or Bhai Gurtej Singh (resident s of UK) you will see that they are extremely formidable people and highly respected by other martail artists/formsand that they have worked hard and risen up to the top, the high end of gatka is an eccelectic form incorporating techniques from all other styles with the view to kill asap.

I think most of you are being a little too harsh on Auzer. You guys always post to him with the utmost hostility with insulting or sarcastic remarks relating to his religion in everything he posts. It's almost like you all expect him to hate his country and his religion. Nothing wrong with being a proud Pakistani or Muslim just as long as you respect your fellow man. Proactive ji has been the most mature member in this whole discussion so far.

I think so. I love his katha although I have a lot to listen to. He's a diamond that many people cherish, but at the same time even more people don't realize. There was no politics or hidden agenda, just pure GurSikhi katha according to Gurmat.

The difference is that we don't distribute flyers in Gurdwaras calling upon Sikh youth to go for it.

its always a weak translation or an anti islam this that the other. The fact is a large number of the practising members of islam dont have a very high degree of education for the women in eastern countries you have very little school education. The majority of islamic countries are very NON ACCOMODATING of other religions which is a joke considering they want bags of freedom to do as these please here! as mark twain said - no point debating with an <banned word filter activated> he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience!

I am not generalizing at all and neither have a spoken a Bad word about Islam. All i am trying to say is that there is such a massive influence on conversion in the name of Islam. There are massive campaigns out of mosques on conversions which i have seen first hand. Being of vey light skin and light eyes i used to get given conversion leaflets when walking apast mosques. This was when i used to have a trimmed beard and wear a white beany hat. Obviously these people used to think i was a muslim hence i used to get a leaflet. I am not generalising as in my home town these people tried to preach their hate outside the Mosque, but all respect to the local Muslim brothers they through them out and called the police !!!! Waheguru NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL TRUE MUSLIMS.... Problem we have here is that there is a massive conversion drive and i have had the leaflets to prove it. Even to the point where they were offering money to those that were willing to convert.. DIGUSTING !!!! Also at Uni when i was not practicing sikhi me and group of friends (mostly girls) were out and a massive group of guys were trying it on white one of my Muslim friends, she didnt like it so i stepped in and said " Step away that's my sister". The <banned word filter activated> went back to his mates and started shouting "watch me F this sikh girl" !!!!! On the other hand we used to have a Muslim Girl who was going out with a Sikh boy that used to visit our local Gurdwara and used to speak to the Giani about coming into sikhi as her parents would not accept his BF. Guess what the Giani said........ If you are disrespecting or going against them then coming into Sikhi is the wrong move. You need to go and speak to your parents and stop seing this boy against your parents wishes... If you want to learn about sikhi seriously you can still do as a Muslim !!!!!!!!!! WAHEGURU !!!!!!!!!!!! Can you honestley say the same would have happened if this was a sikh girl who visited a Mosque !!!! Don't bury your head in the sand... SAS are doing amazing Seva and are exposing what is going on !!!!! PS, those sikh guys who are doing the same are going totally against the teachings of sikhi and their actions are not accepted in our religion !!! Also you will never get Sikhs leafleting to convert anyone especially outside the Gurdwara !!!!!! PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS AS AN ATTACK ON ISLAM BUT CLEARLY IT IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED INTERNALLY IF YOU ARE ASHAMED OF THESE ACTIONS !!!!

The existence and history of Bhai Bala ji is not recorded in any janam Sakhi or in Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaars, does that mean he didn't exist??! You can't just rely on western approach to research solely based on recorded/written sources. Your obvious hatred for nihangs is very evident. Guru Nanak Dev ji maharaj received Shaster Vidya (knowledge/science of weapons) from Akal Purekh Vaheguru just as mahraj received mool mantar from Akal Nirankar. Now some vidya is kept gupt, Mahraj taught this vidya to Baba Buddha ji (the same Baba Buddha Ji who's name the Buddha Dal is named after). Baba Buddha ji kept this vidya gupt untill it was time to teach Guru Hargobind Sahib ji on the instruction of Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj. And as for Guru Nanak Dev ji being a Nihang or not is quite easy to work out of he was or not. Thick people with low intellect and those who have done no khoj only see 'Nihang' as a physical entity. People who have studied arths of Bani also realise that all these words like 'Nihang', 'nirmala', etc are also spiritual states of avastha. Once this is understood one quickly realises whether or not Guru Sahib was a Nihang. Akaal

I vaguely remember a case in the UK a few years back where a boy made the headlines after saying he was attacked and had his kesh cut off. A few weeks down the line it was revealed the boy concocted the whole attack as he wanted to cut his hair and didn't have the courage to tell his father he did it himself. Clearly I'm not saying this might be the case in the above issue but it's best all the facts are gathered before thrashing the guilty party!

We hired some vans and drove there from punjab. Never really looked into it but you could probs go by plane Amritsar to Nanded changing/stopping at mumbai in between.

Most of this is made up and has no historical basis. I've been trying to search Gurmat Veechar for finding anything about Udasees. What I can say for sure is if we compare whatever Sikh sources we have and compare to the Udasee version of history, you will find inaccuracies and inconsistencies. I forgot which Sant said this, but in order to understand history, you need to look at it with the lens of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_%28Bhindran_wale%29/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_11_Ang_0975-1070/020--Sant.Gurbachan.Singh.%28Bhindran.wale%29--Raag.Maaru--Ang-992.mp3 Simple advice is until there is talk about Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaaran or historical Granths it's all hearsay / hearing a very convincing story from so and so baba and so and so baba. Just to make it very simple, I will repeat what Only Five veerji posted on the original topic just so people reading this topic afresh can see it again. Baba Hari Singh Randhawe misinterprets the Gurbani from here to say that Guru Nanak Dev Ji started the Udasee sect: However, it is important to also look at what Guru Nanak Dev Ji tells us who the true renunciate or (udasee) truly is in this shabad. Picking and choosing someone can misinterpret Gurbani for a anmat agenda, but it is very easy to disprove manmat. Guru Nanak Dev Ji says: With Guru Granth Sahib Ji backed with the katha of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale, it is clear that there is no separate sect that Guru Sahib established, but uses Nirmal Panth as the Sikh Panth which in effect is the Khalsa Panth. Just like Guru Sahib countless times uses Brahma, Ram, Rahim and Allah for speaking of Waheguru, similarly Guru Sahib isn't narrow minded and wouldn't use Nirmal Panth or being an Udassee as referring to a sect, but as the traits of what Nirmal is (Nirmal = pure) and Udassee (Udassee = renunciate). That doesn't mean you join a sect to become pure or take off all your clothes and become a renunciate. Guru Sahib says apply the rang/love of Waheguru to your mind as a Sikh to become Nirmal and to live a normal life, but at the same time balance it by being a renunciate.

Thanks i love you too..give me brotherly hug man..!!

You are at the wrong forum. Are you not ashamed of yourself? You want to recite Gurbani to wreck the life of another girl who doesn't deserve to be punished? Thats the cheapest thing I've read in a long time. Ok, I don't mean to be harsh, I understand you're in pain. But my only suggestion would be to let go. You can't even sum up the courage to speak to your folks about him, yet you want to cause a disaster in his family? Why cause pain in someone else life if your fate caused it in yours? Just forget about this guy, he isn't worth it. If he really loved you he would have stood up for you before his family. He didn't! So forget him and move on. Trust me even if you end up with him, you won't be happy. A man who can't defend his love from a strong breeze of air will never hold on to it once the storms of life strike him. Read this: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:pQfUXsZEPUcJ:www.rajkaregakhalsa.net/literature/General%2520Sikhism/Amanpreet%2520Kaur%2520Marries%2520a%2520Hindu.pdf+%22amanpreet+kaur+marries+a+hindu%22&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiTMbUgHG4Krf1sUyUYgBaM6Kb7CFbY3ZND_lLLV_D8HyfU1mSnADz0-wTMc1X3rCmEAHw0wfgH7xZdwNq9KwC6TB-sl1tGSgFKnRIB2Am90NRC7JCMmERzYdiZsX02O4Gk1HST&sig=AHIEtbQhG8_otEN2BVK8rROPDTLIQb3Yww

India didn't break East Pakistan, West Pakistan did, when it tried to force its culture and language on a people that clearly didn't want it. It wasnt the Indians that did this, nor did the indians treat them cruelly, or rape their women. Pakistan does not really maintain these with respect, it just does it as a gesture to pi$$ off the indians. If Pakistan did respect all the historic Sikh sites, then it wouldnt have allowed them to be turned into mosques/schools etc or allow them to be demolished or run down. The land of these Gurdwaras has been whittled away by pakistanis, but the govt has done nothing to prevent it, nor will it do anything to recover those lands for the Sikhs. You know something that is really funny? the muslims said pre 47, that Nankana Sahib was as dear to them as it was to the Sikhs, when the Sikhs protested that we cant leave Nankana Sahib in another country, and the british beleived them, and as soon as partition was announced the muslims with the aid of the baloch military attacked Nankana Sahib and shot down thousands of Sikhs in the city and also the Gurdwara. Respect does not come through mere words.

Auzer Ji, you are too quick to try and point out contradictions in Sikhi when there are so many unanswered questions in Islam. Explain these first before you start on other religions. Your argument is ridiculous and unjustified . Muslims try their hardest to emualte their prophet and do things "just because he did or because he said so and its sunnat". Imo this again, is ridiculous as the majority of things you do are baseless, however, as you believe he was the messenger of God somehow copying him will get you to heaven, then thats fine. My point being Muslims do many pointless things none of which have any value or valid reason; trimming your moustache a certain way; wearing trousers halfway at your ankles; raising and lowering certain fingers at specific points during namaaz; stepping into a mosque with a certain foot etc etc! I could also bring up the classic arguement of circumcision, we have canines in our buccal cavity because we're supposed to eat meat hey, the foreskin must also serve a purpose yet you decide to cut it off!! Waheguru...

Guru Jee told us to keep our Kesh and that is the only reason we should need to keep them. Looking for other reasons to justify it probably show our lack of faith in Guru Jee.

Gatka is an effective martial art, there is no doubt about that. The fact that all the so called 'dangerous tricks' in shastar vidya have been taken out of gatka, makes it all the more effective. This has been proven time and time again. Combat sports have rules to make them safer to compete in. For example in boxing, wrestling and fencing etc, you actually get to test your skills out against a live opponent who is doing their best to beat you and you are doing the same thing back. By focusing on only a few techniques and leaving out the rest, you develop a simple and aggressive gamplan that is well drilled and dont confuse yourself with a myriad of techniques - all the best boxers have their handful of favourite combinations that they knock everyone out with; all the best wrestlers have 2 or 3 throws that they are expert at. Once you have mastered a combat sporting martial art, you can always learn dangerous streetfighting techniques on the back of that and include it in training if you wish. In traditional martial arts, where they practice 'dangerous techniques' alone, you can never really try them out on anyone properly in training, you can only ever simulate it. Most people that practice these arts, including the shastar vidya guys cant apply their techniques in real life. They are just martial arts geeks that like the idea of lots of 'dangerous techniques' and enjoy dressing up in fancy dress costumes and wielding old weapons. Most have never been in a real fight or experienced the stress and pressure and trying to apply techniques against an uncompliant opponent. Gatka can be a very effective martial art. Like all martial arts, there are good instructors and rubbish instructors, and there are good practioners and poor practioners. Gatka in its demonstration form is indeed a 'nameshi khed' or exhibitionism. However, all demonstrations of martial arts are designed to be entertaining. Demonstrations are only a small part of Gatka. It can be trained both as a combat art and as a combat sport depending on the objectives and reasons for training. Shastar vidya is a fake made up martial art which has appeared out of nowhere. It is designed to woo gullible youngsters with its so-called deadly techniques. In reality, it is just a club for geeks that have never been in a real fight and enjoy dressing up as 17th century warriors whilst playing with ancient weapons.

Waheguru! I agree with you 100% Penji, the power of ardas cannot be underestimated (or estimated at all!). I've had many incidents in my life which, in my belief, have been sorted out simply due to the power of Ardas. Guru Ji knows what's good for us and never turns his back on anyone....even on paapi like me! I really hope this experience helps your cousin and your family strengthen their faith in Maharaj x

It's amazing how the made up history of Shastar Vidya is gaining currency, albeit with some naive and starry eyed youth. Guru Nanak taught Shastar Vidya to Baba Budha? How is it that Bhai Gurdas forgot to mention this 'fact'? How is it not in any of Janamsakhis? If the starting point of Shastar Vidya is based on a lie then can the rest of it's history be authentic?

Oh definitely. God is the Doer. We can't understand his plan. We're just puppets. We should be thankful for the fact that God has given us free will. I need to post my story in "How I found him" section but everytime I think about it I start feel egotistic. But definitely, Ardaas is powerful. Hope he starts walking on the path now!

if there is a real need for what you are saying, then it is not nindya but a warning. look in your heart to know if your intentions are pure.

tofu should be either fermented or boiled to destroy its naturally occurring toxins. if you want to learn how to eat than dr. fuhrmans 'eat to live' is an excellent book for a proper eating plan.

A Perfect Hope for All from Gurbani ਧੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਆਈ ॥ The word of Lord came to me from the celestial world On high, and ਤਿਨਿ ਸਗਲੀ ਚਿੰਤ ਮਿਟਾਈ ॥ all the worries have been taken away. ਦਇਆਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨਾ ॥ The kind Lord (Hair), ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚੁ ਵਖਾਨਾ ॥ has manifested unto me , Nanak , the truth. What worries us? All mankind is under the effect of Sin and Death and therefore, are separated from their God. They can not overcome sin and death by themselves, and they do not have clear knowledge and understanding about getting connected to their God. According to the plan of Great God, the Father of us all, it was necessary for us, His spirit Children to be separated from our Heavenly parents to come to live on earth. ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਛੋੜਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ You yourself separate the mortals, and You Yourself unite them. ||1|| Here we are separated from God, knowing nothing what went before we came to this mortal existence, why are we here? What is the purpose of this life? And where do we go after this life is over? Or is there any thing after this life at all? Answers to these puzzling questions can be found in the holy books which God has provided for us to study and ponder. The words which are contained in Holy Scriptures are written by holy men of God, who have seen God and conversed with Him. And these words are given to them as messages from Him to be imparted to His children. I would urge and exhort you to study His words and trust in them and believe that God , the eternal Father of us all do truly exists, dwells in yonder heavens, watches over us and wants us to be happy in this life and in the life to come. As previously stated that we have no power over sin, death, diseases and sicknesses and everything which goes along with our life and we don’t know the way, or in other words, we are lost in this world. But, because our Heavenly Father loves us, He has provided the way. He (God) has sent to this earth the perfect Guru or Sat guru, who is able to help us. Let us read about this Guru in the Gurbani: ਗੁਰੁ ਸਜਣੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪੰਥੁ ਦਸਾਹਾ ॥ I have met my Beloved Friend, the Guru, who has shown me the Path to the Lord. ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ O my soul, there is none as great as the Guru is. Guru knows the way and He is the Way. There is none like Him. ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਡੁਬਦਾ ਲਏ ਤਰਾਇ// Gur parmesar pārbarahmgurdubḏā la▫e ṯarā▫e. The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. DEATH IS INEVITABLE. What is death? Death is separation of body from the spirit. When our spirit, which is eternal, leaves the body of clay, the body can not function. No one likes to die; no one likes to get old. But everyone has to accept the will of the Almighty God. Don’t worry; God has arranged everything for us. He has sent messages of hope and mercy through the holy men. We live in a world that is transitory and fleeting, and nothing is permanent. Here are given more verses from the gurbani regarding old age and death. They are parts of this mortal life. All human beings go through the suffering in this life. Gurbani, the word of the Guru reveals to us that this suffering is only for a short period of time i.e. as long as one lives in the mortal body. Consider the following verses from Gurbani: ਰਾਮੁ ਗਇਓ ਰਾਵਨੁ ਗਇਓ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੁ ॥ Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives. ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਥਿਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਜਿਉ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੫੦॥ Says Nanak, nothing lasts forever; the world is like a dream. ਚਿੰਤਾ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਜੋ ਅਨਹੋਨੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ Why worry for that which is inevitable? ਇਹੁ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਕੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਥਿਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥੫੧॥ This is the way of the world, O Nanak; nothing is stable or permanent. ||51|| ਜੋ ਉਪਜਿਓ ਸੋ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਹੈ ਪਰੋ ਆਜੁ ਕੈ ਕਾਲਿ ॥ Whatever has been created shall be destroyed; everyone shall perish, today or tomorrow. A PERFECT HOPE FOR ALL HUMAN BEINGS. They tell us through His words, the Gurbani that the sting of death is taken out, sicknesses and diseases are cured, getting old is stayed and all righteous desires of man will be fulfilled in due course of the Lord. To understand the messages of the Gurbani, one has to understand that all that is spoken of in and through the gurbani is to be fulfilled in the future, i.e. when Kalyuga (time or present condition) will be ended and Satyug will be ushered in. The popular term used for this transition is called the end of the world. When one looks around, one sees that people are subject to sickness, disease, corruption, death and decay, one wonders what Gurubani is talking about. Exactly, Gurbani is giving us message or good news (Manglacharan) from heaven. We need to have Faith and Hope. God loves us. He has given us hope. The perfect Guru has redeemed us from old age and death. But, for now you and I are going to get old and one day we will die. Our spirit leaves the body and goes to a place called Spirit World or Parlok. Everybody goes there and there is veil between this world and world of the departed souls. There is a great example of this fact found in Gita, when Arjna refuses to fight war against his own relatives. Lord Krishna, through his power, opens the eyes of Arjana and is shown the glimpse of the people who depart this life and go to the spirit world. Only then Arjana is convinced to take up the arms and fight the battle. ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਸੁਖੀਏ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਸੁਹੇਲੇ ॥ He is at peace in this world, and happy in the next. When someone dies people mourn and lament the departure of their loved one in such a way that they show hopelessness and ignorance about the existence of people hereafter in the next world. It pains me to see people’s hopelessness and ignorance, yet they go to temples and listen to the word of the Guru and have no understanding or vision of hereafter. Guru has overcome diseases and sickness for all human. ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੂਖ ਤੇ ਰਾਖੈ ॥ He saves us from the pains of death and birth ਪਤਿਤ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਕੀਏ ਖਿਨ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਸਗਲਾ ਰੋਗੁ ਬਿਦਾਰਿਆ ॥੧॥ He purifies sinners in an instant, and cures all diseases. ||1||Pause|| ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੀ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਦੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ॥ The Perfect Guru has shown mercy to me, and eradicated my pains and illnesses. Guru has overcome Death and therefore, has provided us with a perfected and immortal body. This new body will have no more disease and death and we will live for ever. Read and ponder the following verses: ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗੈ ਊਤਮ ਸੇਈ ਜਿ ਪਾਪਾਂ ਪੰਦਿ ਨ ਦੇਹੀ ॥੧॥ O Nanak, those who do not walk in the ways of sin, shall be exalted in the world hereafter. ਜਰਾ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖੁ ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੬॥They shall never again suffer the pains of old age and death. ਕਹਤ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਸੋਇ ॥ Says Nanak, He alone kills and revives. ਐਸਾ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਕੋਇ ॥੪॥੩॥ Understand this well - do not be confused by doubt. ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭ ਰਾਸਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਕੀ ਮਾਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ॥੬॥੧॥੧੩॥ This soul and body all are His. He Himself kills, and brings back to life. ||6||1||13|| ਜਰਾ ਮਰਾ ਤਾਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਨਾਠਾ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਿਤ ਗਾਵਹੁ ॥੩॥ The pains of old age and death shall all depart, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe. ||3|| Is not Gurbani wonderful? It is full of nuggets of gold. It is simply beautiful, and beautifully simple. Our Guru is wonderful. That is why He is known as waheguru. Which literally means wonderful guru? I testify in the sacred name of the waheguru that his message in Gurugranth Sahib is true. Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki Fateh.

I'm a sister by the way anyways brother ok if she converted and did it with heart why is the show called Bilqees Kaur? Why the Kaur aspect of it? I find that wrong since Kaur is only used by Sikh women.

All praises due to my amazing Waheguru! I was just reading something on another page and had the pleasure of being reminded of the following... Sums up my point beautifully! "The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its books, its culture, its history, Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long the nation will begin to forget what it is and what it was. The world around it will forget even faster. The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting" Those of you advocating a Hindu-Sikh sanathan dharam - YOU ARE PAWNS in this games of Chess!!

Gurfateh veerji, Putting you off moderation. However, Do refrain yourself from posting any material written/spoken by anti-dasam granth side on our forums. Stay in high spirits -- Dasam Granth March 1, 2008 Dasam Granth Bani: SikhSangat.com holds a Pro Dasam Granth stand. We believe that the Dasam Granth Sahib in its current form is the work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. No provocative, insulting or derogatory language will be tolerated against Dasam Granth Sahib. Any topic or post questioning the authority and authenticity of the Dasam Granth will not be allowed. Not following the rule will result in Under moderation and possible ban without an issuance of warning.

pesh because you gave into kaam a little, thats a bit excessive no? Singh, you realised you did wrong and are now looking to rectify it i dont think you need to go pesh! Stick with your nitnem, at the end of the day the posters above dont go pesh every time they give in to anger,ego etc