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Recently while reading some website i came across an article about pictures of the Gurus that were painted during there own time and how we still have them. On Page 5 of the article there mentioned how in Baghdad Guru Nanak Ji Maharaj give permission to the king of Baghdad to paint Guru Sahibs Picture. In the article it mentions that a European named William Ouseley published a book in 1797 call "oriental Collections vol II". William Ouseley found this picture of Guru Sahib in a Baghdad palace and put the picture in his book. I searched for the book and found it, where it has Guru Ji's picture. There are two pages one gives a brief description and the second has the picture. Here are the pages with the pictures

This is great stuff - thank you, BhagatBalmik for sharing. The inscription reads as Mehtab Singh has already translated. However the script appears to be of Nastaliq Persian type and of a much later period than the 15th century. The gaps between the words (like most old scripts gaps were not left between words of Arabic or Persian - nor were they with Gurmukhi for that matter) make me suspicious this is a later addition and probably penned in by William Ouseley himself who would annotate such items himself in Persian that he had learnt. Being a westerner at that time (early 19th century), he would have left gaps between individual words. Art and percieving what our Gurus looked like is a natural curiosity. However if you want to have the true darshan of their images all you need to do is open up and look at the pages of the Guru Granth Sahib...

I find all sampradas whether it be Taksal, Akj, Nihang, Nirmalas, Udasi offer interesting perspectives on Sikhi. Ridiculing or hating another's perspective is the epitome of "Anti Sikh"

Forgive me if i'm mistaken but to me it seems this bibek issue has at times become absurd. Could it be this idea of keeping bibek or sarbloh bibek been a sort of a 'sign of the times' so to speak? The Sikhs were in constant battles, under constant threat from enemies. Would it be crazy to think this rehat was set up to protect Sikhs themselves and only trust the food of those close and dear to you, your brothers in arms. Could extreme measures of bibek have been a mode which they took to protect Sikhs from being poisoned or having their food contaminated by the enemy?

For Sangat , Dera Sant Garh Harkhowal ( Sant Manjit Singh ji ) very good katha.

This topic is about Ekta and you fools are causing friction! Cut it out would ya

This book is written by a swami who became Gursikh. http://www.gurunanakhealing.com/PREFACE%20TO%20ENGLISH%20EDITION.pdf

Dude they are not atleast...atleast not that i m aware of according to social media-facebook, news etc..stop being hysterical bro, take it easy.i know being pro-active is good but over pro-active in these things, brings paranoia and hysteria- disconnect us from reality.!!

Hammertime bro, just give it up. May be you reading too much into it- just erase all the name tag-association from your head just come back at the human level - feel sorry/remorse for the victim and hope accused pay for his henious crime..instead of reading too much into it - getting name tag-association in our head makes us blind to see reality at the human level and we starting falling into traps of stereotype, prejudice against certain communities or group...!!

People should be neutral/open minded when it comes to historical relics/picture discoveries. We should not put "our own preconceived notions", "our individual beleif mindset' of what Guru Maharaj may have looked like- first than historical evidence of relics/ discoveries of pictures..If we do that, it totally blind us from any objective unbias research/investigative work.

I should NOT have watched that...

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh Southampton Singh Sabha Gurdwara uses tables and chairs in the langar hall. Daas gave it a shot, took the opportunity to raise this issue at the general meeting held on Sunday 6/1/13, including distributing copies of the original Sri Akal Takht hukamnama. I was shot down and treated like dirt. I nevertheless persisted to ask for a formal response. Excuses began to unfurl, ranging from the 'hukamnana is old', 'jathedar is not current', then 'it's not signed, go get an original signed copy from Akal Takht' then 'the other Gurdwara down the road has tables and chairs' then 'tables and chairs are actually allowed you are wrong'. I pleaded for the granthi to help me but he took their side. All excuses as I am aware they initially did comply with the order but then reverted back to tables and chairs. All this in front of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. What should my next steps be? I have heard of people being excommunicated for this issue. How does one inform Sri Akal Takht sahib? There are other important issues also which I raised and which were ignored. Is anyone willing to join me to form a group to put pressure on the committee? There are very few relatively young gursikhs in the sangat here, so we need help from the wider sadh sangat. Please PM me. Thank you Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh I met them about 10 years ago and it is due to their efforts that my soul started deeper journey into Sikhi. Before i met them I was little bit religious type of youth but not too religious. I thanks to such gursikhs whose presence in this world put youth like me and countless others in right direction. It is also because of them that i met other good sangat. I am not in habit of writing long story but i have no doubt in saying that these gursikhs acted as my godparents and it is because of them that i live my family life according to the principles of sikh faith. Though i regret that i couldn't keep in touch with them for past few years but few months ago i started getting in touch with them via email and we planned to have regular sangat after my india trip. Weeks later i came to know that waheguru jee had different plans and devastating news hit me hard. These gursikhs dedicated their life for people like me. Please do ardas for bibi jees chardikala and do moolmantar jaap for the selfless sewa they been doing for the past 3 decades or more. Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh

Depends on how you define the two yourself Bhen Ji. In the Oxford English Dictionary (because British English is the right one :biggrin2: ) it says: Definition of tolerate verb[with object] allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one dislikes or disagrees with) without interference: a regime unwilling to tolerate dissent accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance: how was it that she could tolerate such noise? One of the definitions of accept is: Definition of accept verb [with object] tolerate or submit to (something unpleasant or undesired): they accepted the need to cut overhead All the examples you've given are unjust situations and contain some sort of harm. Sikhi is the best example to use. Its similar to the example that ChuckSinghNorris Veer Ji gave. There were people of other religions around and Guru Sahib didnt necessarily agree with their religions but still accepted/tolerated them. If you accept and tolerate something it doesnt mean you agree with it. Now if you add some unjustness and harm to the scenario.......Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji didnt agree with what the Muslims were doing against the Hindus but thats not because they agreed with the Hindu faith.......you can see where im going with this.

Just came across a magazine called "Bloody 84" which advocated the cause of a Sikh homeland. It was first published in 1984 and then republished, both publications were paid for by the Guru Nanak Niskham Seva Jatha (UK). It contains images of Sikh Freedom Fighters. Interesting as this magazine sets out the case for a Sikh homeland, and outlines discrimination against Sikhs and Constitutional issues which form the basis of the Sikh protest, now as all these issues are still valid and relevant I wonder what Singhs from the Jatha think, someone is clearly wrong either the previous leadership or the current? I am just curious as to when did the mindset of the Jatha change?

TOLERATION is different than acceptance/agreement.

Please check out this Youtube link to a programme from 1988 on BBC TV's 'Network East' - discussing gang warfare in Birmingham over the sexual grooming of Sikh girls by Pakistani-Muslim gangs.............are there any brave ones amongst us nowadays who have the guts to say what these Shere Panjab members had said 23 years ago on national television ??.............month after month we hear some new court case in the UK involving gangs of Pakistani men sexually grooming underage white girls in the last few years......this clip should be shown to the UK media to demonstrate that Sikhs were combating this menace of Muslim sex gangs decades before the present day spate of grooming cases !!!

With Guru Sahibs kirpa, sevadaars from 1G, have ripped the audio of some of Giani Sher Singhs Katha and made available for the sangat to download in audio form from here: http://www.1guk.com/multimedia/audio Giani Sher Singh is a fantastic kathavaachak, who talks openly with great passion and love about the Guru's Message and Bani. Please download and share. More Katha of Giani Ji comming soon on www.1guk.com Add us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/oneGseva Like our page!: http://www.facebook.com/pages/1G/161177807278807?ref=hl Contact us: info@1guk.com Vist www.1guk.com for tons of english talks and katha!!!

You know I had a thought, if we are going to criticise others, we could a bit of reflection upon ourselves first and also make the statement that 'diversity doesn't work in the panth' as we seem to be so factionalised along caste, politics and jathas and whatnot.

yes bhaji. we need to avoid going down the same road the Ravidasias have going in declaring and adopting an official portrait of Bhagat Maharaj. They dont like any other versions being used or promoted.But they like us, have no idea what he actually looked like.

We all need to keep an open mind. I reckon if Guru Ji revealed himself in the form Guru Nanak again, many wouldn't recognise him. We build up images and expectations in our minds because we focus on drawings and paintings instead of Guru Ji's teachings. If he wanted us to worship his form, there would have been statues all over India. Guru Ji wanted us to worship the Formless One. This is the pictures we should be hanging on our walls.

Thing is, younger, intelligent educated people will better appreciate how the image we have of our Gurus will have been seriously influenced by interpretations of the past - especially the all powerful Singh Sabha views. Visually we'd have been influenced by Sobha Singh. That being said, to try and 'fix' the form of our Guru's based solely on our own intellectuals interpretations obviously has it's own flaws, as they too were human and prone to error and misconceptions. I mean look at the near and contemporary imagery of Guru Tegh Bahadhur - it presents him as a meditating ascetic type, whereas older imagery portray him in a more regal light.

What about the Sikh women who were raped by the Punjab police during those years? Who will we ask justice from? Didn't members of the Punjab Police consider themselves "Sikh"?

At the moment the Katha is from seminars they have held over the years. More Audio files of English Katha of Bhai Kuljit Singh (Lesta) has been uploaded, more to follow soon.

What's the katha of, which shabads? Topics

I am sure people in India are well aware of the fact that "Singh" is NOT JUST Sikhs, it can be (1.) Rajputs or Jaats from Rajasthan, (2.) Rajputs or Jaats from Haryana, (3.) Rajputs or Jaats from UP, (4.) Rajputs or Jaats from Bihar. I even had a friend from Rajasthan who was a Brahmin from a Thakur background and had surname Singh! As mentioned by S1ngh before in an earlier thread, these communities have had Singh as their last name for centuries before Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji's avtaar. No one is anywhere close to blaming Sikhs.

I assure you, there has not been a single comment anywhere on the Internet (as far as I know) blaming any Sikh for this dastardly crime, so please please quit the paranoia already, and thanks.

too true. The trend of these pictures is taking us away from the essence of Guru NanakDev Ji. An over-reliance of the purported image of the 10 Gurus is leading us to different avenues than what Guru Ji is essentially telling us. I know that me like all other Sikhs would have loved to have known what the Guru's looked like, but we are probably going to have face it that no such paintings exist. Once my relatice was going mad over a painting describing 10th Guru Ji with a gun, calling the painter all kinds of names. Then i asked him about the sakhi of Bhai Dalla. Then he didnt know what to say.

He is great jathedar so far. He originally studied at taksal. Nevertheless, he promotes unity in diversity,understanding and don't super impose his views on the panth. He discourages any kind of fascism - he clearly gave scolding/tarna to those who promote or bring katarvaad in to the panth during puratan samparda samelan seminar. He definitely did lot of patching and repaired lot of broken bridges with puratan samparda's ie-nirmale, udasi/sevapanthis (followed how it was recommended in anandpur sahib resolution and how those samparda's who were demonized and vilified by mainstream should be re-integrated back with no string attached-taking over their property). He inherited lot of issues, disunity, problems from the past and fixed them by not just showing through mere rhetoric speech but actually by actions- attending events, be supporitve of puratan samparda's and our shaheeds- political prisoners- bhai balwant singh ji rajoana. He was instrumental regarding pushing punjab gov't to support bhai balwant singh ji rajoana case. He opened up restrictions of SGPC election/voting structure. I am sure he has lots to improve. But lets all be encouraging/optimistic/respectful and be full proud of our jathedars of sri akaal takth sahib not just him but all panj jathedars of panj takth sahib (five pillars of sikh dharam). We should have panj takth maryada/panj takth jathedars of the panth at the highest esteem even higher than our jatha's or samparda's that many of us inspires from ..!!!!!!!!!

This is the original painting of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji in Baghdad : https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=138218369596482&set=a.123622801056039.33163.117224928362493&type=3&theater I see no coat and topi! I can clearly see a dastar and full fledged beard. I believe this is a part of the whole painting which can be found in still in Baghdad and Sant Singh Maskeen Ji had seen it.

Piaree Sadh Sangat Ji WAHE GURU JI KA KHALSA WAHE GURU JI KE FATEH Waheguru has blessed us with a little bit of seva , which we would like to share with the sangat. SIKHAID charity help out people in the poorest areas around the World It is run 100% by volunteers form all back grounds , all funds raised are used 100% for the cause , some volunteers forsee the camps and spend their own money for flights and accommodation. World health organisation say :- there are approximately 39 million blind people in the World This will increase to approx 79 million if not checked 90% of the problems are in developing countries 80% can be cured/prevented SikhAID setup camps , recent venture was last November /December where a volunteer foresaw the camp , approx 500 people were screened , 119 referred for cateract operation. Along side the eye camp , Dental camps are run ( started in 2010) again by volunteers who have shipped over the equipment , some young kids have not even seen a tooth brush. Also mental health and well being workshops are being setup , last year a conference was held with NHS ( Nationla Health Service) explaining to them especially in the asian,punjabi,Sikh community theres no help availble , for example any domestic issues in the househeld our elders tell us to sweep under the carpet or tell us it will be ok ,overtime this builds up and eventually explodes and causes all sorts of mental & health problems. We are asking for help off the NHS , setup camps in Gurudawaras, visit homes etc... so that sangat and tell somebody and seek help/guidance Much much more can be done .. Piaree Sadh Sangat , lets make people aware , the more awareness the more help can be provided. Seva can be in many forms , some will donate, some will do physical seva , some inform others etc.. any which way we can please help On new years eve , SikhAid volunteers setup a stall at GuruNanak Gurudawara smethwick high street ,and Dhesmesh Gurudawara Lozells ..... The main point was making the sangat aware so that could make others aware . Some much piare(love) was shown by the sangat it was unbeliveable , all wahegurus doing. SikhAid are holding a classical music charity event in Birmingham Adrian Boult hall on Saturday 16th Februray 2013 start 6pm . All money raised will go the the causes .. If you can come along please do so ( if you require tickets , please let me know cost of one eye operation is about £20 , ticket costs are £15 , £20 family of 4 £40 ( 6yrs-18yrs) , snack & drink is included) If you want to help out, donate , please send your email address / contact details , Please see poster and website below :- http://www.justgiving.com/Sikh-Aid-International-Appeal http://www.sikhaid.org/ https://www.facebook.com/sikhaidinternational

he could have said "dont worry ill get you a burka with a big inside pocket". but if he did that he will come across as someone who is unable to face jokes, and he made himself out to have a zany character. hope he learns from this.

Sikh organisations should look into this to see how this can be applied to the Sikh Genocide. Many of the Politicians, Police and Army men love to visit the West, this could add pressure on them. Some guilty of crimes maybe living in the West also. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20914282# Nepal's Colonel Kumar Lama charged in UK with tortureCivil war broke out in Nepal in 2005, leading to many thousands of deaths Continue reading the main story Related StoriesNepal torture suspect held in UK Nepal's long wait for war crimes justice Afghan warlord guilty of torture A Nepalese army officer has been charged in the UK with two counts of torture during his country's civil war in 2005. Colonel Kumar Lama faces a British trial under a law that allows prosecution of alleged war criminals. The 46-year-old officer, currently seconded to the UN, was held at his East Sussex home by Metropolitan Police officers on Thursday. Col Lama will appear before Westminster Magistrates' Court later. He is charged with intentionally "inflicting severe pain or suffering" as a public official on two separate individuals. Police said the charges relate to two separate incidents that allegedly occurred between April and May 2005 at the Gorusinghe Army Barracks in Nepal. His arrest in St Leonards-on-Sea led to the Nepalese government summoning the UK ambassador in Kathmandu to protest. Col Lama is currently employed as a UN peace keeper in Sudan, but was visiting the UK when he was arrested. The Metropolitan Police had investigated information supplied by a third party in the UK relating to allegations of torture. War casualties Detectives with specialist experience of war crimes arrested the officer under Section 134 of the Criminal Justice Act, a law that defines torture as a "universal jurisdiction" crime. This means that suspects can face trial before a British court even if their alleged offences had nothing to do with the UK. He is accused of committing crimes during Nepal's civil war, in which more than 16,000 people died. The decade-long war, which ended in 2006, generated allegations of human rights atrocities against both the army and Maoist rebels. Nepal says Britain is breaching its sovereignty by carrying out the arrest. Narayan Kaji Shrestha, the country's foreign minister, said: "The arrest of Lama, who has been serving in the United Nations mission in Sudan, without informing the concerned government and without any evidence, is against the general principle of international law and jurisdiction of a sovereign country. "We express strong objection to this mistake and urge that it be corrected... and Lama be released." More on This Story Related Stories Nepal torture suspect held in UK03 JANUARY 2013, WORLD Nepal's long wait for war crimes justice01 JULY 2012, ASIA Afghan warlord guilty of torture18 JULY 2005, UK

At a time when the human rights situation is under the scanner in the West , Sikhs should focus on getting justice and stop some of the petty disputes. http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-12-31/india/36078581_1_sikh-women-sfj-gurpatwant-singh-pannun Rights group announces reward of $10,000 for identification of each rapist of November 1984 massacre IP Singh, TNN Dec 31, 2012, 01.24PM IST Tags: Delhi gang rape| 1984 riots| 1984 massacre of Sikhs JALANDHAR: As there is strong anger in the country against the rape and rapists, Sikhs For Justice (SFJ), an international human rights group advocating justice for the victims of November 1984, while showing solidarity and sending its "deepest condolences" to the family of the Delhi gang rape victim, questioned the silence of the Indian administration, politicians and the justice system over the rape of Sikh women in broad daylight during first week of November 1984. The NGO has announced a reward of $10,000 for the identification and prosecution of those who raped Sikh women during November 1984. "The reward of $10,000 will be given to the witnesses who come forward with the identification of rapist and their prosecution," said SFJ legal advisor Gurpatwant Singh Pannun in a statement issued on Monday.

<ADMIN edit: filthy language>

When I read all of these &lt;banned word filter activated&gt;, I am really happy now, that I am so close to death.

That racist girl tweeted this:

Of course it's okay. He is your father. He helped bring you into this world, and he helped to raise you. He has put a roof over your head. Try reasoning with your dad. Tell him that Sikhi is important to you, and you do not feel comfortable when he drinks.

This is something your parents and her parents need to meet up and seriously talk about. Have you told your parents? Has she told hers? A 3-year relationship is not worth it if it means hurting the sentiments of your and her parents and offending both family's religious convictions as well. Everyone would want to marry their son/daughter within the same faith, and why shouldn't they? You both need to decide what is your priority in life. Religion (which you got from your parents?), or each other (who you know only for 3 years).

He needs to be bound over an ant hill and smeared in honey - let nature take care of the rest.

HE THOUGHT HE WOULD BE MEETING A 15 YR OLD GIRL GOOD WORK

Can anyone give an explanation on what and whatfor and also can you all stop posting links to FB as a number of us don't have accounts, but would like to be included in the "cool kids circle" :-P Ps. I do agree that we should remove the p*ki from the title. Hammer this is in no way directed at you my brother, but I think we should have more honour in our battles, even if it is just a battle of words as we are the Sikhs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

http://www.panjabtimes.co.uk/news/1857/

History Book of 2110.... "the battlefield thundered as they roared their war cry....the Khalsa Sikhs fought fiercely like dinosaurs..." :khalsa2:

Just to set the record straight. I have the most respect for those guys in SP who had the right intentions in their heart and made sacrifices. If we had more guys like those (as opposed to opportunists who came in for the wrong reasons), we wouldn't have half the problems we have today.

Yes bro. I'm against that. Our ancestors lived in a different time and in different circumstances. They were fighting for survival. We are not. Shere Punjab and other such organisations disappeared in the 80s and 90s because those sort of on-street tactics simply did not work. Sikhs would get smashed, muslims would get smashed, its just an on-going cycle of violence that does not get anywhere. It just creates a community divide. Young Singhs get criminal records, get sent down, put in hospital and/or even killed. All for what? Cos they want to play heroes and act out their kharkoo fantasies by saving some slutty loose punjabi girl that has been bedding muslim guys behind her parents back and has a bit of a rough domestic? Sorry for sounding like a 'papu' but I wouldnt even get out of bed for that and I wouldnt risk my neck, my family or my job by getting physical with someone over it. This Punjabi attitude about controlling all the women in our community and saving their honour is not really applicable in the UK. All the girls here are fiercely independent. Most of the time, if you tell a girl to stop hanging around with a muslim guy/gora/kala, they will stick two fingers up at you and tell you to stop interfering and mind your own business. I have come across a Singh who returned a girl, who ran away with a muslim, back to her parents and ended up get charged and imprisoned for kidnapping, and neither the girl nor her family stuck up for him in court. Clearly, I am older and more wiser than you are. I can tell that from your style of speech and your attitude. I have seen what happened in the 80s and 90s. I remember attending a demonstration in the Midlands about a similar case to this one about 10 years ago. There was a big meeting in the council building and do you know what the Muslim leader stood up and said to the Sikhs? 'Sardar ji, please stop trying to malign our whole community over this. If anything, you should be controlling and educating the girls in your community to stop doing this sort of thing!' He hit the nail on the head. At the end of the day, if we educate our girls and raise awareness of Sikhi, we can reduce this problem. If you are so much in favour of militant action and forming street gangs like Shere-Punjab, then you should go ahead and set them up. The problem with you youth nowadays is that you want someone else to set it up for you. You go to gurdwareh and ask them to set it up and provide funds for these kind of organisations to be set up. Why should the majority community that is peaceful set up and support a violent street gang? At the end of the day, anyone who is going to do anything on the streets will just go ahead and do it. They dont need anyones permission or support. Its like when people used to come and make complaints to Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale about police injustices etc, he used to say why are you coming to tell me this and expecting me to do something about it. Did Satwant Singh or Beant Singh ask for anything to be set up and ask anyones permission when they shot Indira Ghandi? Why dont you do something yourself? If you feel so passionate about such activties, then you and and your mates should get together and do something. The smaller the group the better. You dont need t-shirts, wrist bands and flyers to advertise who you are, and you certainly dont need to burden law-abiding Sikhs with your activity.

It's always Sikh girls. We need to get to the root of the problem, or accept its a culture clash of westernisation vs home culture on the youth making them fall prey

Heres the real deal regarding S.P of the 80s Shere Panjab Birmingham is made up mostly of the first British Born Sikhs to go through the U.K schooling system; In addition to that you have leading figures of sp that came to England when they were 5-12. Majority of S.P were mainly munair with a hand full of Singhs. S.P.emerged out of a gang from Handsworth called the donkies a named adopted as they wore donkey jackets. Holyhead secondary school was the core of the donkey gang. After leaving school there wasn’t much to look forward no fancy vocational courses then!! They left school on to the dole . Football, fighting vandalism, and dirking is the main pass time. Wedge head hair cuts, adidas samba, and drain pipe cords or jeans with Pringles jumpers are the order of the day. They go college but will be on there for 2 months max. At the same in Aston you have the Aston Panthers who are emerging not only as a street gang but with sinister campaign to convert Sikh girls for conservation to push in to prostitution. Aston and Handsworth are neighbouring areas with lozzles or Perry barr separating them. Clashes in college between Sikhs and Muslims result in to more people coming together in the donkey gang. Now at 19 some in job and some out of work The donkey gang peaked in 1986 when they came to Aston to the guild pub on witton rd in numbers around of 200 plus to sort out the Panthers after long rising tensions, people are hurt; weapons are used in the raid. Lads are arrested, this when it hits the media and the talking point of every Punjabi household. Some Singhs of martial arts back grounds from south Birmingham and handsworth took note of what was happening. They came on the scene started to organize meetings, training, and talks. The boozing and fighting culture is still there. The name of Shere Panjab is adopted, small local gangs and handy from Smethwick, winson green, wbrom and cape hill are brought in. S.P now have name and a identity ,sp badges were made, small orange silky handy chiefs were in a pockets a bit hanging bout of the back if jeans, Jail was a common, violence was flaring eve with blacks with of handsworth. S.P has peaked too early. In the 90s people were getting married, having kids opening business, some went the other in to organized crime. A football team is set up under the SP banner; it’s a regular meeting place on Saturdays with all day drinking. There’s criminal activity, Aston panthers and Muslims are forgotten years. Circa 1997 sp is just a football team and a group of old school lads who meet. Conversations has changed from who in prison to “hows the kids” some turned to Sikh and are totally changed, Sp were of a tough back ground where gang culture was youth culture, they deserve place in British Sikh History.

Bachan from a Brahmgiani Mahapursh "Until we are united, until we stand under the saffron Nishaan Sahib (Sikh religious flag), until we have unflinching faith in Siri Guru Granth Sahib, Khalsa Ji, we shall certainly get beatings." Sant Giani Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindranwale

See the writing in the wall sikhs r being targeted by everybody in Ludhana village few days back a dera head forced a gursikh youth to bow before a mazar who approached the jathebandis when sikh activists went there dera heads escaped and singhs saw many amritdhari sikhs paying homage to mazar then dera head openly dared sikhs to stop his anti sikh activities. That dera head is not as powerful as sirsa dera. In punjab u can come accross sikh youths being beatenup by poorbias. This is because of sikhs r more interested in luxury cars,dowry items etc. Those tring to maintain real sikh cultures of learning martial arts, shooting ,milatary knowldge r looked down upon. Unless we revert back to milatary culture I will not be surprised in future sikhs being killed like goats will be common sight.It is essential to think of ur carreer but if u r not safe then everything will be useless.