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truth can be a bitter pill to swallow for our elders, they are accustomed to burying things like this under the carpet. bhai mohan singh is bringing these issues out in the open and it is painful to hear how our daughters and sisters are being targeted. may vaheguru bless bhai mohan singh and his group for spreading the awareness. i dont hate muslims but their condemnation of the rapists is never as vocal and heartfelt as their condemnation for say israel or issues affecting their own 'brothers'.

We are not your western audience. We are from same region you are from so we have a different take than the western audience on this subject. We are all aware the Taliban resistance are a loose confederation such as the main Taliban group, Haqani network, GulBuddin Hekmatyar group, even TTP carries out operations in Afghanistan. But all of these groups owe their allegiance to Mullah Omar whom they regard as Amir Ul Monineen. Once the western backed government in Kabul is toppled and the Taliban take over, all of these groups of fighters will be part of the Taliban's main body. The Taliban takeover of Afghanistan will have a spill over effect in all the neighboring countries. It will embolden the Islamic radicals in Pakistan to demand Sharia laws. The Kashmiri separatists will probably have a boost of Jihadis in their ranks(not good for the Indian army). In China, the Uighur resistance will get a boost in their resistance against the Chinese which is close by to Afghanistan and central Asian states will also have a resurgent Islamic militant movement. It will have an effect on large parts of Asia which is probably why Iqbal called Afghanistan the heart of Asia.

Wow. :respect: The days of Indian rule in Punjab are surely numbered. 29 years. Each and every year the numbers just get bigger and bigger. Don't know how many were there today.....some put the figure at 80,000. 80,000 Sikhs united in openly calling for Khalistan. Its the first time I'd seen this. It used to be that there were just a handful of older men calling for Khalistan, with most worried about being denied an Indian visa oif they did so openly. But today, virtually every man, woman and child was united in Khalistan. You gotta hand it to the UK sangat. Other countries get 100,000 for nagar kirtans but even then these are organised as fun events with music and dance. What we had today was 80,000 people in unison shouting for Khalistan. Amazing :respect:

I think we need to get away from assuming that when Khalistan is created then the rest of India will remain united. The likelihood is that any state that secedes from India will create a ripple effect which will see the creation of a number of other independent countries out of India. Th edges of the Indian state will secede, states like Assam, the north eastern states like Meghalaya, Tripura, Bengal etc. In the West will be Khalistan, Gujarat. In the South Maharashta, Tamil Nadu, Andhra etc. What will be left will be a rump India made up of UP, Delhi, Bihar, Madhya, Haryana and possibly Rajasthan. Sikhs will need passports to go and do a yatra to Delhi and Patna Sahib from the rump India. They will need another visa to go to visit Nander from a Maharashtra state etc. Same as Hindus from the rump India will need a Khalistan visa to visit Durgiana Temple and possibly Kurukshetra if the Sikh manage to include that into Khalistan.

Wrong... Not everyone is racist and what is so proud of being racist...it just shows your ego...allot your comments are really childish Sikhs have to be nirvair... Which means no hatred . I am also daughter of Guru Gobind Singh but I don't curse and discriminate.....this is not what our Guru taught us.... ...

The musalmaan had abused a lot of people here but he complains when I called him a LIAR. He displays the usual Musalmaan trait of being the aggressor who when attacked then claims to be the victim! The only pagal kuttay I have seen on here are Musalmaan who come here for a few days, display their Islamic supremacist gandh and then go back to their sad lives watching revert videos and reading how great the Islamic empire was and how evil the Americans and the West are. He lied when he claimed that non-Muslim places of worship aren't allowed in Saudi Arabia because they do not allow the ownership of private property by foreigners. He claims to know because he lived there. He doesn't seem to know that the law was changed in 2000. So why have we not seen Gurdwaras, Churches, Synagogues and Mandirs in Saudi Arabia in the last 13 years? The liar won't tell you that if someone has a non-Muslim religious text in Saudi Arabia then it will be confiscated and destroyed. Imagine how the Islamic rageboy will react if someone destroyed in the Quran in a non-Muslim country. The root of Islam is falsehood and hypocrisy. He claimed that he considers the Arabs as nothing, yet in Pakistan the Arabs are close to being worshipped. The liar's whole belief system teaches him that he has to emulate the 'prophet' whose whole lifestyle is what being an Arab is all about. Yet he makes remarks against the Arabs!

Don't stoop down to the level of a person using bad language. Like a kamal in dirty water it remains unaffected. KUbu qyrI pgrI mITy qyry bol ] Bhagat Naam Dev Ji Raag Tilang 727

PakistaniPunjabi veer recognizing historical facts doesnt count as an attack on your religion: Will Durant argued in his 1935 book "The Story of Civilisation: Our Oriental Heritage" (page 459): The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period. Writer Fernand Braudel wrote in A History of Civilisations (1995), that Islamic rule in India as a "colonial experiment" was "extremely violent", and "the Muslims could not rule the country except by systematic terror. Cruelty was the norm burnings, summary executions, crucifixions or impalements, inventive tortures. Hindu temples were destroyed to make way for mosques. On occasion there were forced conversions. If ever there were an uprising, it was instantly and savagely repressed: houses were burned, the countryside was laid waste, men were slaughtered and women were taken as slaves." The Afghan ruler Mahmud al-Ghazni invaded India no less than seventeen times between 1001 - 1026 AD. The book Tarikh-i-Yamini - written by his secretary documents several episodes of his bloody military campaigns : "The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously [at the Indian city of Thanesar] that the stream was discoloured, notwithstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink itthe infidels deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed." In the contemporary record - ' Taj-ul-Maasir' by Hassn Nizam-i-Naishapuri, it is stated that when Qutb-ul- Din Aibak (of Turko - Afghan origin and the First Sultan of Delhi 1194-1210 AD) conquered Meerat, he demolished all the Hindu temples of the city and erected mosques on their sites. In the city of Aligarh, he converted Hindu inhabitants to Islam by the sword and beheaded all those who adhered to their own religion. The Persian historian Wassaf writes in his book 'Tazjiyat-ul-Amsar wa Tajriyat ul Asar' that when the Alaul-Din Khilji (An Afghan of Turkish origin and second ruler of the Khilji Dynasty in India 1295-1316 AD) captured the city of Kambayat at the head of the gulf of Cambay, he killed the adult male Hindu inhabitants for the glory of Islam, set flowing rivers of blood, sent the women of the country with all their gold, silver, and jewels, to his own home, and made about twentv thousand Hindu maidens his private slaves. This ruler once asked his spiritual advisor (or Qazi) as to what was the Islamic law prescribed for the Hindus. The Qazi replied: Hindus are like the mud; if silver is demanded from them, they must with the greatest humility offer gold. If a Mohammadan desires to spit into a Hindus mouth, the Hindu should open it wide for the purpose. God created the Hindus to be slaves of the Mohammadans. The Prophet hath ordained that, if the Hindus do not accept Islam, they should be imprisoned, tortured, finally put to death, and their property confiscated. Timur was a Turkic conqueror and founder of the Timurid Dynasty. Timur's Indian campaign (1398 1399 AD) was recorded in his memoirs, collectively known as 'Tuzk-i-Timuri.' In them, he vividly described probably the greatest gruesome act in the entire history of the world where 100,000 Hindu prisoners of war in his camp were executed in a very short space of time. Timur after taking advice from his entourage says in his memoirs : "they said that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty. In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword Timur thereupon resolved to put them to death. He proclaimed : "throughout the camp that every man who has infidel prisoners was to put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasir-ud-din Umar, a counselor and a man of learning, who, in all his life had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives". During his campaign in India - Timur describes the scene when his army conquered the Indian city of Delhi : "In a short space of time all the people in the [Delhi] fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground....All these infidel Hindus were slain, their women and children, and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors. I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death." The Mughal emperor Babur (who ruled India from 1526 -1530 AD) writing in his memoirs called the 'Baburnama' - wrote : " In AH 934 (2538 C.E.) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had been Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslims) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (a muslim nation)." In Babur's own words in a poem about killing Hindus (From the 'Baburnama' ) he wrote : "For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer, I battled infidels and Hindus, I determined to become a martyr Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!" The atrocities of the Mughal ruler Shah Jahan (who ruled India between 1628 - 1658 AD) are mentioned in the contemporary record called : 'Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori' and goes on to state : "When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars (Noblemen)" The Afghan ruler Ahmad Shah Abdali attacked India in 1757 AD and made his way to the holy Hindu city of Mathura, the Bethlehem of the Hindus and birthplace of Krishna. The atrocities that followed are recorded in the contemporary chronicle called : 'Tarikh-I-Alamgiri' : Abdali's soldiers would be paid 5 Rupees (a sizeable amount at the time) for every enemy head brought in. Every horseman had loaded up all his horses with the plundered property, and atop of it rode the girl-captives and the slaves. The severed heads were tied up in rugs like bundles of grain and placed on the heads of the captives...Then the heads were stuck upon lances and taken to the gate of the chief minister for payment. It was an extraordinary display! Daily did this manner of slaughter and plundering proceed. And at night the shrieks of the women captives who were being raped, deafened the ears of the people...All those heads that had been cut off were built into pillars, and the captive men upon whose heads those bloody bundles had been brought in, were made to grind corn, and then their heads too were cut off. These things went on all the way to the city of Agra, nor was any part of the country spared. Bro do you seriosly believe that hindus never converted to avoid all of that and to save the lives of themselves and there familys also pakistanis muslims are a proud people do you honestly think that they will teach there children"our ancestors were hindus who converted out of fear" instead saying the majority converted because of sufis became a conveniant exvuse also bro you cant have it both ways you may think that some sikhs here have said some intolerant things and certantly some users here have said things that shhould never come out of a sikhs mouth but atleast on here its only the same 2-3guys whos only purpose whenever they log in is to hate on islam but ive lurked on multiple muslim forums and muslims have said much worse about sikhs than any so-called sikh has about muslims6

Lets say Khalistan is made. Lets say a Sikh living in Khalistan wants to visit a Gurdwara in Delhi would he or she need a passport to cross the boarder ? and go through immigration control ??

Police at the end confirmed numbers were 15-20% higher than last year. Route was quite good. Good to see Panj Pyare at Whitehall, 10 Downing Street, Houses of Parliament etc. Would be great if some could post photographs. Last year the police said numbers were up by 30% on the previous year. The turnout was amazing - considering event was organised late (last 2/3 weeks), Sikh Channel did very little to promote the event. Could have had many more banners and placards, more megaphones needed and those to make speeches on route to tell non-Sikhs what was happening and what we were remembering. Entrance to stage should have been better controlled and more co-ordinated speeches in English. Meeting to take place in early July to plan for 30th anniversary. Everyone should start to think of ideas to make start (hopefully in Hyde Park), march (through London) and freedom rally at the end a huge success.

I know what is going on in UK.... I just want to say that this is sikh sangat forum not Islam bashing forum....we need to improve ourselves and stuff like this happen in our gurdwaras too but I don't want to go into details but this is true that our religion does not support it Again who cares about other religions? Lets work on improving ours....

Three-quarters of the UK's Sikhs have experienced racism but 95% are proud of being born or living in Britain, a survey suggests. The first British Sikh Report (BSR) has been launched in Parliament. The report is based on an online questionnaire of 650 Sikhs, who were asked about issues including politics, religion and culture. It is one of the largest studies of Sikhs in Britain and gives a more in-depth insight than the 2011 Census. Britain's only Sikh MP, Paul Uppal, welcomed the report. The Conservative MP for Wolverhampton South West said: "It is great to see a proactive approach being taken by the British Sikh community to highlight their concerns, wants and needs in such a comprehensive way. '' Labour leader Ed Miliband said: "The British Sikh community has made and continues to make a huge contribution to our nation. "I welcome the British Sikh Report in its attempt at engaging politicians with the British Sikh community." Asif Sadiq, chair of the National Association of Muslim Police, said: "It is clearly shocking that such high numbers of British Sikhs have been victims of racism. "Maybe Sikhs are being targeted because they are perceived to be Muslim by some people, it is therefore very important to understand the nature of the racist incidents that Sikhs are facing." Jasvir Singh, chair of the BSR, said: "Sikhs have a rich history in Britain. There has been a Sikh presence in Britain for almost 160 years. "The aim of the report is to develop an understanding of the key needs and issues within the British Sikh community. "It also provides an invaluable resource for government and Sikh and other faith organisations to help them understand the views and opinions of Sikhs living in Britain." One of the central tenets of the Sikh faith is equality for all, including gender equality. But the report suggests only 55% believe there is gender equality within the Sikh community. Among the women questioned, 43% said they had experienced discrimination based on their gender, compared with 14% of men. Mr Singh said: "This study gives Sikhs an insight into their own community and raises some important issues and concerns that Sikhs need to address themselves. "It's hoped we can use this information to take positive steps and changes." The report suggested a high degree of political engagement within the Sikh community - 70.9% said they voted in the 2010 general election, while 23.6% said they had not voted in any elections during the last four years. The inaugural report has been put together by a team of Sikh professionals and academics. The BSR will now be published annually with the aim of highlighting the changing attitudes and concerns of the British Sikh population. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22782524

So most Sikh youth are not only Drug dealers, but even Sikh rape gangs now??? ਯਾਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਨੂੰ ਨਾ ਇਹ ਕਿਹ ਦਈ। ਇਹਨੀ ਵੱਡੀ ਗੱਪ ਮਾਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਪਿਹਲਾ ਥੋੜ੍ਹਾ ਜਿਹਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਮਾਗ ਦਾ ਇਸਤੇਮਾਲ ਤਾਂ ਕਰਦਾ। ਇਥੇ ਇਹ ਦੁਕੀ ਦਾ ਪਾਕਿਸਤਾਨੀ ਇਕ ਪਾਸੇ ਸਿਖ ਫੋਰੁਮ ਤੇ ਆਕੇ ਸਾਡੇ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੁਰਾ ਕਿਹ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਨਾਲ ਦੀ ਨਾਲ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਤੇ ਮੁਸਲਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਕਿਹ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਸਿਖਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਇਸਨੂੰ ਖਾਮੀਆਂ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਆਉਂਦੀਆਂ ਨੇ, ਪਰ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਇਕ ਭੀ ਬੁਰੀ ਗੱਲ ਨਜਰ ਨਹੀ ਆਉਂਦੀ। ਇਸੇ ਲਈ ਤਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਏਸ ਨੂੰ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਦੇ ਇਤ੍ਹਿਹਾਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਦੱਸ ਰਹੇਂ ਹਾਂ। ਅਸਲ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਸੁੱਲਾਹ ਇਥੇ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ। ਸੋ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਨੇ ਹੀ ਭਰਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਾ ਭੰਡੋ, ਤੇ ਇਸ ਮੁਸਲੇ ਬਾਰੇ ਥੋੜ੍ਹਾ ਜਿਹਾ ਸਾਵਧਾਨ ਰਹੋ। ਮੈ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿਚ ਤਾਂ ਲਿਖ ਰਿਹਾਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਸਾਡੇ ਸਿਖ ਵੀਰ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਸਕਣ।

I don't care what people say, Michael Jackson is a legend.

Most Sikh youth in California are drug dealers???? I think you need to go out more

You're not racist if you don't believe in an ideology.

Veerji read his post carefully....he said SALI first to me....... If someone is abusing tell them not to do so..... I respect ur opinion though.....I will take care not to repeat these acts....the line is "Chawlein kiddan mardi sali huh

Post news links and proof, you're from California, like me. You don't know what goes on in the UK lol. Yes, there are also Punjabi gangsters who are born into Sikh families but the difference is these Punjabis don't claim to be Sikh nor are they brainwashed by some mulla or religious Islamic preacher to go on and groom non Muslims to convert them. I'll give you an example from New Jersey. There was a criminal Punjabi (I think nijjar something) and he had like 40-50 gas stations and he part took in criminal activity and illegally changed the petrol pump so he would steal extra cents off the gas pump. Long story short the man was crazy and he heard about some Pakistanis shouting gandian gandian gaallan to Punjabi/Sikh woman and families and they would basically terrorize the t own but the police couldn't do anything. This nijjar fellow hired a few men and they sprayed the Pakistanis down with autos. Nijjar was arrested but they let him go and instead thanked him for getting rid of the pestilence...soon after he got caught for murdering his employees and now he is in jail for life. Moral of story is he was a hard core criminal and scum of the Earth, but he didn't do it because he was brainwashed by a giani ji from Gurdwara to do this lol Most of the criminal gangs that are Punjabi could care less about their identity and being Sikh nor do they take pride in it. In the UK these dirty sex/rape gangs even have their moms defend their son's actions blaming it on the victims. In our community the parents would end their kid if they found them doing anything remotely close to this. ~~~ Of course majority of Muslims also, like us, find this disgusting, but that doesn't change the fact there is a population that does what I mentioned above. The bigger majority needs to actively address these problems and that will be the only way to shut up critics.

I don't think you can blame our PunjabiPakistani friend, Islam has a tendency to turn people into LIARS. Oh Dear, there I wrote it! Now some of the liberal Sikhs on this forum will attack me for being a 'hater' or spreading 'hate'!! Let me explain. I will take one example out of many. His excuse for the Saudis not allowing non-Muslim places of worship in their country is because the Saud family has a monoploy! He is clearly lying. If non-Muslim places of worship are so welcomed in the rest of the middle east, then why aren't the organisations that oppose the Saud family's rule not making that as one of the reasons for why they want the Saud family out? Well, they don't because even the most ardent enemies of the Saud's know that by refusing to allow non-Muslim places of worship in Saudi Arabia, the Sauds are following the teachings of Mohammed. Mohammed that 'peace unto mankind' was the one who ordered the Muslims to make sure that there were no non-Muslim places of worship in Arabia. So why would our PakistanPunjabi friend give a totally false reason for why non-Muslim places of worship are not allowed in Arabia? don't think that he is that stupid or ignorant not to know the true reason. Could it be that he is a LIAR? As for the Punjabi language in Pakistani, it's doing great according to our friend. How great a language is doing in Pakistan can be seen from the fact that the only existing Punjabi newspaper in Pakistan was founded in 2004! And our friend thinks we Punjabis from East Punjab are jealous of the Punjabi from Pakistani!! There is an interesting article about the status that Punjabi has in pakistan. http://www.gowanusbooks.com/punjabi.htm Our friend wants us to believe that his ancestors were converted to Islam by Sufis rather than what by a combination of a Muslim's sword and the oppressive Islamic state's discriminatory policies. One can understand why he wants to believe the former rather than the latter. In fact this is a tendency that one finds in most Muslims from Pakistan. No one whats to admit that the faith that they have was thrust upon their ancestors at the point of a sword. As the Sufi excuse has been wearing a bit thin nowadays, I have noticed some Muslims who now want us to believe that their ancestors were Sikhs and not Hindus! They know how difficult it was to convert the Sikhs to Islam by the sword, so they can now claim that their ancestor was converted not by the sword but by the 'truth' of Islam!

Guru Gobind Singh ji di kudi aa......dardi ni kise to..... Huh........bechara PakistanI.......

Hi all, just was thinking and thought about people that get better from sant or brahmgiani, like obviously i know its all Waheguru and gods hukam and mehr if they glance their grace, but does one lose somethin from another side, like somebody passing away or other loss when we go to them to ask for help?

Dont worry about not being to do what you could before, God knows why you cant, but keep tryin, and keep the love for god inside you. Its all gods grace that makes us also do path simran seva. Hope you went to the docs?

You know what veer ? Today was like an epiphany moment for me. It is foolish to try and understand Waheguru's will but today I think I did. For example, often I used to wonder why in our history we had suffered so much.....What if Aurungzeb was never born etc. But the truth is that if Aurungzeb was never born or we never went through so much suffering, Sikhi as we know it would not have come into being. Our character, and the message that shines through, could only have come into being because of the suffering. Same with the suffering since 1984. I used to keep asking myself what Waheguru's plan was when, for the last 30 years, nobody was paying any attention to our pain. But today, on seeing and hearing the new young generation, I felt I understood Waheguru's will. You saw for yourself today how there is a new very young generation of UK born Sikhs, many of whom who are moneh, with intense Khalistani pride, an intense desire for justice, and a fantastic realisation of how to get it done. This new generation of very young Sikhs is simply awesome. To get to this stage we had to go throiugh 30 years of pain. There was no other way. His plan is masterful. I mean just look what we had today. The most inspirational - motivational speeches came from little youngsters. We had people shouting Khalistan Zindabad that would never have done so a year or two ago....and they did it with so much passion. We had white English speakers such as members of parliament openly mentioning the word Khalistan, saying how important it was if we desired justice. I truly sensed today that the wind of change is here. I truly believe that the little Sikhs today are gonna achieve something that neither we nor our parents could. They really are awesome.

I think you give too much credit to the people of those states that you're hoping will want to break away from India IF Sikhs manage to wrestle into a position for gaining Khalistan. Most people are more worried about being fed and keeping a roof over their head than any idealistic fight for freedom, which'll most probably lead to years of unrest and instability. Indians are an apathetic lot.

The youth will only get 100% support from the Gurdwaras when they start to use their democratic right and start to set up committees such as the ones our Canadian brothers have set up. The youth always complain that when they have ideas about how to help they Panth, they get no support from the committees, this will never happen if the youth themselves are in charge of the Gurdwaras.

This whole grooming issue and the Leicester case in particular are absolutely disgusting and saddens me deeply. I’m just thankful that there are people like Bhai Mohan Singh and SAS out there who are trying to combat this. Having been on this forum for many years, I do get concerned when allegations are made against individuals or organisations on here. Singh1986, can you please share any FB comments or posts that you are referring to made by these elders or organisations?

GPS Veerji, Kartar Singh Jhabbar was a brave Singh of the Panth who never was scared and would certainly not use women as shields. Women may have been in his Jatha but that doesn't mean he used them as a shield. This may be similar to how when Bhai Randhir Singh Jee led a Jatha to free Rakab Ganj Gurdwara, many women were in his Jatha. At that time too the opposing side was the Nihangs who played in the hands of our enemies opposed the Jatha of Sikhs but ended up being beaten up. This is what Nihangs did when Singhs came to free the Akal Takht from the Pujaris. The Beadbi of the Dasam Granth story was most probably created by some Nihang I suspect. This is similar to how stories have been created by Nihangs to put down Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and in our life times even Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. We should not believe these stories against our respected Singhs. On the link you provided a member named Tony who I think is proactive of this forum wrote this: MDS, Your quote as usual proves nothing. The impression given by the quote is of a forcible removal of Nihangs from the Akal Takht, but what you did not include was the lead up to this event as described in the book you quoted. The Nihangs were not in Akal Takht as caretakers but they had attempted to forcibly take over the Akal Takht from the Akali Jatha at the instigation of the Punjaris. The Pujaris after having lost control of Akal Takht went around instigating the Sikhs of the villages surrounding Amritsar spreading rumours that the low castes had taken over the Harmandir Sahib and mobs of Sikhs armed with lathis and chiviyan started to arrive in Amritsar to liberate the complex from the lower castes! They only left after they came to know that it was the Akali Jatha that had taken over. The Pujaris having failed then went to the Nihangs and said that they wanted to hand the Akal Takht to them. It was then that the Nihangs went and tried to take over the Akal Takht. The above is in the same book as you quoted. The book also states that the Nihangs were high on bhang which might or might not be true. Unlike the sanatan myth that Neo alluded to which implies that the Akalis forcibly removed the Nihangs from the Akal Takht where they had always been and the Nihangs did not fight back because women were put on the forefront by the Akalis. The truth is that the Akalis were in control of the Akal Takht having taken it from the Pujaris, the Nihangs at the instigation of the Punjaris tried to wrestle control of the Akal Takht and were beaten up severely and in one case a woman beat a Nihang up. The sentimental story of Baba Sahib Singh allowing himself to be beaten up by a woman rather than fight back might or might not be true but what did he think the Akalis would do when confronted by a band of armed Nihangs intent on forcibly taking over the Akal Takht and undoing the work of the reformers? If they were going to interfere in an ongoing tussle, the least they could have done is to find out the facts. The apology of the Nihang jathedar was because they had as usual allowed themselves to be used by Anti-Panth forces against the Panth.

Should be supporting those Singh 100%. Atleast they got off their backsides to do something to protect their sisters. Disgusting.

Sister don't apologise. What you say is spiritually true. And you re-inforce to our Pakistani Punjab brother that we have no hatred for him on an individual level at all. He seems to be a decent kinda guy who has just been brainwashed by the usual Mullahs. But in the real world Sikhs say let Muslims be good Muslims and let Sikhs be good Sikhs. But Arab Muslims in Saudi Arabia who control Islam (so I am not even talking about our dear Pakistani Punjabi brother) think let Muslims commit all kinds of crimes against non-Muslims and let Muslims work on turning Sikhs into Muslims. Then it's obvious why Islam has grown more via the sword. The Jews tried to say let Jews be good Jews and concentrate on there own lives and let the Nazi's be good Nazi's. After that, the Holocaust happened and 6million Jews were killed off by the Nazi's. So Miri and Piri both have there respective places. Bhul chuk maaf.

All I have to say for this is to listen and understand shabad " bande Khoj dil har roj" In this shabad you will understand what our Guruji wants us to do... He explains those people are foolish who argue over the religious books and try to prove them as wrong.....which is worthless Instead of wasting our energy on this we should look into ourselves and improve ourself Bhul chuk maaf ji

ekgurjaskhalsa please don't be so hard on our dear brother Pakistani Punjabi. I am sure he reads the Quran a lot as he is a student of Religious Studies at Harvard or some other top prestigious university. The Holy Qur'an: Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made sexually lawful to thee all thy wives and all those slavegirls whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has awarded to thee" This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Prophet Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners. Others are restrained to four wives, but may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear: Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or the slavegirls (whom their right hands possess)..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (70:29-30). Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those slavegirls whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible. Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them." Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's). Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored). From the Hadith: Bukhari (80:753) - "The Prophet Muhammad said, 'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'" Bukhari (52:255) - The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven. Bukhari (41.598) - The Prophet Muhammad said Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt. Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Prophet Muhammad's Muslims after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Prophet Muhammad's approval. Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Prophet Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Prophet Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus. Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Prophet Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave). Bukhari (34:351) - Prophet Muhammad sells a black slave for less money as a racist slave trader. Bukhari (72:734) - Some contemporary apologist Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to admit openly that Prophet Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of multiple places in the Hadiths where a reference is made to multiple innocent human beings owned by Prophet Muhammad. In this case, the slaves are of black African descent. Muslim 3901 - Prophet Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave. Muslim 4112 - A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four slaves in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free. Bukhari (47:743) - Prophet Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command. Bukhari (59:637) - "The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, 'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?' When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, 'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'" Prophet Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really "wives," since Prophet Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living. Abu Dawud (2150) - "The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Qur'an 4:24) 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those captive slavegirls whom your right hands possess.'" This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Qur'an. Not only does Allah grant permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands. (See also Muslim 3432 & Ibn Kathir/Abdul Rahman Part 5 Page 14) Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?" The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Prophet Muhammad looks on in amusement. Ibn Ishaq (734) - A slave girl is given a "violent beating" by Ali in the presence of Prophet Muhammad, who does nothing about it because she was from a poor background. Abu Dawud 38:4458 - Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: “A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those slaves (whom your right hands possess)”. A slave girl is ordered by Prophet Muhammad to be beaten until she bleeds, and then beaten again after the bleeding stops. He indicates that this is prescribed treatment for slaves ("those whom your right hand possesses"). Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Prophet Muhammad trades away women and innocent children captured from the Banu Qurayza tribe to non-Muslim slave traders for property. (Their men had been executed after surrendering peacefully without a fight). Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveller) (o9.13) - According to Sharia, when a child or woman is taken captive by Muslims, they become slaves by the mere fact of their capture. A captured woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.

What determines group as cult it's not the group itself but rather it's member cultish behaviour super imposing themselves on the group and I am afraid it's not limited to one group.. In fact cultish members are in all groups, these people have nothing else to do but flame wars.. you will find them everywhere I. E - Nihang, nirmalae, udasi, taksali,3ho, nanaksar, akj, dodras, neeldhari, etc.. I think overall issue is with cultish followers as opposed to actual group. Even western/tech society have same problem for eg tight knit Apple and Microsoft fan base are considered cult.. Also peta animal rights group and environmental groups are considered as cult because of their hard core fan base. So it's not the group but it's cultish fan boys. These cultish fan boys have serious psychological issues, some may even turn total extreme as there are cases of environmental right wing groups committing demostic terrorism.

Lol gotta love the "rape gangs" bit.

Unfortunately now it seems that our own Sikh community and committee in this Gurghar talk against Bhai Mohan Singh and those involved in the Mughal Darbar incident and are working with the Police to get Naujawaan arrested that took action! I never thought this would happen in Leicester whereby our own elders and organisations such as Leicester Sikh Alliance -- who should hang their heads in shame after the posting they made on facebook calling youth involved as thugs!!!! and from what I understand are pushing for people like Bhai sahib to stopped for "hate" speech! I am so angry that as a community even those that do something our committees and organisations have completely stabbed those that take action in the back!!!

I know I heard Giani Ji kind of speak out against evolution. 1)What is Giani Ji's thoughts about evolution? I remember listening to Sant Singh Ji Maskeen's katha and he kind of hinted in favor of it. Personally I believe in it, but I would like to see Giani Ji's views. 2) What is Giani Ji's views on the SGPC and Akaal Takhat being run by Badal and how the Guru's golak is being stolen by masands? Recently when dhundi was making his money making tour in California no one from our seats condemned him. How do we take back our institutions and establish a unified panth? Really hope these questions are asked.

Free speech is important. Don't be bullied into submission sister! Exchange of ideas can never be wrong. It humbles, reaffirms beliefs/opinions, readdresses beliefs/opinions and allows for progress.

I guess thats the biggest problem in our Quam. This guy atleast has his turban and beard. He was also one of the founding members of Sikh Coalition. Rather than standing besides him and taking an opportunity to educate the masses, we are always criticising others. He hasnt gone to a brothel or a strip club. Further he went with his wife to listen to music. I dont see anything wrong. Please guys, lets stick together. United we stand, divided we fall!

http://www.scribd.com/nanaksargursagar/documents

Whats your analysis of the bilderberg group? Do the members / attendee's wish ill on humanity or make life better for most people? Do they really run the world as some claim or do some other shadowy secretive group (freemasons, zionists, roman catholic Vatican church, Jesuits, etc)

Sounds like a bit of a chamcha to me. By all means bring your fellow religionists to task, but don't let off the "man" so easily. It seems he's laying all the blame for what's wrong firmly at the feet of his own lot when we know Western intervention is as much as to blame as anything else. Sounds like someone is desperate for mainstream approval and congratulations for being a good guy by accusatorily wagging his finger in the direction of his fellow Muslim.

see guru sahib is not ur enemy that they will cause u difficulties in life,guru ji is ur father

~ Khalsa Movements ~ This video brought to you by Khalsa Movements is a speech in the early 1980's by Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderanwale. The speech was invoked by a series of actions and events by the Indian Government which brought about great injustice to the Sikh community at this time. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji a prominent Sikh leader explains to the sangat about these injustices and how Sikhs should stand strong and battle the injustice. Twitter: @khalsamovements Facebook: www.facebook.com/khalsamovements Instagram: @khalsamovements Email: khalsamovements@gmail.com Like - Comment - Subscribe

ITS NOT KAACHI BANI OF SANTS

True. This was one of the major factors for the downfall of the movement. Sikhs should never have boycotted the elections, consequently making the congress win. Actually we can say there were a number of reasons for the downfall to have happened. -Boycotting elections. Congress of Beanta should not have won. -Lack of forest, mountain cover was also a contributing factor because it meant Kharkoos had to depend on the good will of the people for their survival. People also have Tauts amongst them. -Benazir Bhutto going against the ISI, and betraying the Sikhs. She not only shared intelligence with the GOI, but even handed over some Kharkoos to the Indian security forces who were later all killed. In the end, look how Karma got her back. -The Punjab police. They were also overwhelmingly Sikhs. So the war between PP and Kharkoos, both sides were Sikhs. Any side that were killed, it was essentially Sikhs that were dying. In the early years of Kharkoo movement, many PP men were sympathizers of the Kharkoos and would even provide them with intelligence People like KPS gill knew this, so he started to make his black cats(fake kharkoos) kill PP families to turn PP totally against the Kharkoos.

Singh Ji, I didn't even mention singh sabha here not sure why you bringing singh sabha into this discussion i have no qualms with singh sabha..atleast not the original singh sabha anyway by panthic akaali singhs which nirmale and udasi backed them too, but i cannot speak regarding rest followed as there were factions and factions within akaali. But point being i never mentioned singh sabha here Have you looked at the outrageous reforms of bhausaria especially bit about rejecting dasam granth/sri guru granth sahib tried implemtating and compare it with these missionaries outrageous reforms...its same thing...they are rejecting/justifying on the same premises - sheer hysteria/hindu paranoia insecurity, inferiority complex, hyper tension..that is the crux of the argument here that them rejecting banis on the same premises..!!!!!!!!.Your point regarding these people being influenced by communist ideology is incorrect as communist are outright atheist and if these missionary are more influenced by communist ideology than bhausaria than they would reject sri guru granth sahib ji as well not just sri dasam granth sahib as communist are simply against organized religion or God. Yes i agree they could be influenced by communist ideology as well but they are far more influenced by bhausaria idea than communist.

Veerji I don't know why you are brining in the term Protestant in every discussion here. By protestant I think you mean Singh sabha or AKJ. Just to clear some points here. If you read Makhan Purewal's other articles, he has critisized Singh Sabha scholars like Prof Sahib Singh and Bhai Kahn singh Nabha, since these Singh Sabhiya scholars were firm believers in Dasam Bani. So I don't understand how these modern heretics can be linked with Singh Sabha. These heretics are not Singh Sabhiyas. They are mostly former communists. This distinction needs to be known in order to understand fully their mindset. This is especially true for their founding leader Gurbaksh Kala Afghana and Ghagha. There is a HUGE difference between a Singh Sabhia and a communist minded Sikh.

How ironic that Sant Ji who died fighting the government controlled by Brahmins is being called a “bippar” and Makhan who considers himself a “true sikh” does not feel an iota of shame for using the last name ‘Purewal’ which is part of the caste system designed and advocated by the Brahmins. Then who is the real bippar here?

We are no body to decide when we come to this earth and nobody to decide when we go from here. There are many ways that you can make yourself useful to the society, to y our family to yourself. You seem to be putting question after question on different topics. Its good to be curious and finding out answers. But how about some action at the same time. Volunteer at your local Gurughar for some sewa. There is tons of stuff to do at Gurughars. examples in kitchen are Preparing Langar, mopping the floor, cleaning/organizing the kitchen. doing dishes. Dishes never stop coming to cleaning from morning till all sangat is gone. Cleaning/organizing the langar floor. Volunteering to be the leader to have sangat do simran for 5 mins. before they start eating. Serving food to the sangat, then picking up plates and picking any residue from the floor. In Deewan hall, doing the sewa of Chaur to Guru Sahib (if you wear washed clothes to Gurughar) Organizing the side rooms where they put all supporting supplies they need in deewan hall. Helping with any khalsa school activities. doing shoes cleaning and organizing sewa. Cleaning bathrooms sewa. There is tons more I can write about sewa in Gurughar or in some hopital or ins ome school or in some shelter for homeless and poor etc. etc. But lets start from Gurudwara first, where you will get to listen to Gurbani as well. You won't be firing question after question, once you get under the spell of sewa. not that I don't want you to find these answers, but the reality is that you wont' have questions anymore. you will find answers yourself in your activity and in your own mind. Vehla mann shaitan da ghar. Free mind is the devil's workshop.Thats the case with you right now. So get busy, do good to yourself and to society at the same time.