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Support him as much as we can so that it sets an example or path where thousands like him can come forward to expose the hidden truth. There might be some people who may felt regret of doing paap on higher orders 20+ years ago. If they get a sense of support (money/moral/emotional) from sikh kaum then they might help organizations to run case against officials like kp gill. When I say support him, i don't meant to give him Siropa or throw total trust on them.

MUST WATCH: **1984 TRUTH EXPOSED :: SANT BHINDRANWALE** FEARLESS PARCHAR IN 2013 PUNJAB BY SANT DHADRIANWALE ONLY A VERY FEW CAN OPENLY DO SUCH FEARLESS PARCHAR WITHIN THE CURRENT TIMES OF 2013 PUNJAB. THIS MUST BE WATCHED.

I know it sounds cool name but they should really consider changing the radio name to something else as that name is consider terrorist organization by US, Canada and UK and are banned (along with ISYF) by US, Canada, UK gov't. Sikh is law abiding citizen and suppose to respect law of the country (in this case abroad), we shouldn't use names which are black listed and should be slightly careful as it would attract negative media press which would show sikh community in a bad light and besides raw agents need excuse to black list innocent sikhs by even a remote suspicion..i wouldn't be too suprised if these type of facebook pages of banned organizations are created by raw agents, as a honey pot to get gullible sikhs trapped and black listed..people need to be responsible for their actions and realize they are not just representing their group but whole sikh community with their actions.

I have been busy changing this document (as well as others!) according to your advice, so sorry for the late reply. Hopefully it's better now?! :D I really cannot express my gratitude enough for all your wonderful help! Thank you so much everyone!!

There has never been a serious study done to determine how many Muslims had converted to Sikhism. After the victory of Banda Singh Bahadur many Muslims cast their lot in with the Sikhs seeing this as their only means of survival or wanting to become one with the new power that was replacing the Mughals. It is tempting to wonder what the Punjab would have been like today had Banda Singh Bahadur succeeded in replacing the Mughal rule permanently. The Muslim Jat tribes beyond Lahore had only been forcibly converted during the time of Aurangzeb a few decades before, so they might have made common cause with the Sikhs in Western Punjab. The Sikh rule might have taken the form of a Reconquista like the Christians did in Spain. The only work I have come across that tried to enumerate how many Sikhs were from a Muslim background was a survey carried out by a British official in Lahore in 1846-47. From memory he listed Hindu Sikhs and Muslim Sikhs ie Sikhs from a Hindu background and Sikhs from a Muslim background. I think the figures were 10 % for Muslim Sikhs and 90% for Hindu Sikhs. I will try and see if I can get hold of the exact figures and post them here.

Very few Sikhs were part of the army that attacked Sri Darbar Sahib. The Indian army could just get a few so called traitor Sikhs like Brar, Dyal as a show for the world, and say to them "see even Sikhs supported operation bluestar." Most of the Sikh soldiers were brought in after the attack for the purpose of cleaning up the blood. Thousands of Sikhs mutinied during the attack and were trying to make their way to Punjab. Unfortunately, since they were already moved to far off locations away from Punjab they could not reach Punjab to do anything. These soldiers were disorganized and were later caught, some were tortured and the rest were suspended.

isingh1699 has hit the nail on the head. Voluntary migration out of India was something peculiar to Punjabi Sikhs and to a lesser extent Punjabi Muslims. Of course the vast majority of indentured labourers to places like Fiji and Guyana were Hindus but these were lower caste impoverished Hindus from UP and Bihar. The only voluntary migration from higher caste Hindus was for educational purposes and this was to the UK and not to California or Canada. Legal Singh, So let's take the 1881 census to be deeply flawed and reject it outright. So is the 1891 census more accurate? It actually shows a DECREASE in Sikh Jats and an INCREASE in the number of Hindu Jats!! Even the 1901 census shows 1,539,574 Hindu Jats against 1,388,877 Sikh Jats. It is actually only in 1911 that the Sikh Jats go to 1,617,532 and the Hindu Jats decrease to 1,000,085. So were 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses flawed and 1911 the first 'correct' census? With regard to Muslim Jats, beyond the Chenab river anyone who was not a Pathan or a Rajput and who farmed land was considered a Jat. The term Jat did not have the same meaning as it did in the rest of the Punjab. That is why there are so many smaller gots which are not found in the core Jat areas of Central and East Punjab. So in these areas castes which were not Jat were enumerated as such and continued to be enumerated as such throughout the census period. In the Central and East Punjab it would be impossible for a non-Jat to claim to be Jat. The increased in the number of Sikh between 1881 and 1931 was not solely among the lower castes. Rajputs increased by 289% Sainis by 573% Aroras by 300% Khatris by 49% Kambohs by 215% Gujjars by 203%

I don't know this person. However, its a good sign sikhs in leadership/ media or authority position resigning on their own accord and own will. Usually people who love kursi or on power trip (like badal and co), they tend to hold on to their positions even when their one leg is in kabar and other leg outside...such is power of greed, ego and attachment. Anyway, not sure about his track record but good move being candid about it and giving up power, authority and giving other chance to do this seva.

Wow. If true, they sacrifice their son for our faith and we repay them with insults about their faith. We really do come across as lovely people don't we. :ohno:

We are all guilty of debating or discussing outside of gursikh principles ((which includes me off course), just wanted to take this chance to post sakhi from Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji updesh to pandits on discussion/debates and whats allowed for Gursikhs. Four types of Conversations/discussion- 1) Heth - Where you listen to someone because you know they have more kamai and more knowledge than you. You are humble when listening. This also applies to school. 2) Vaadha - Where you actually do your research and share to positively add to a conversation constructively. Even if there is disagreement, you should not hurt another's feelings or prove that you are better. 3) Jalapa - Where you say stuff to put the other down. Try to make yourself look good. 4) Vitaardha - Where you keep talking and don't listen to anyone else (the majority of us). *** This is from a sakhi where some pundits asked Guru Hargobind Ji what type of conversations are allowed. Guru Hargobind Ji said a Gursikh only takes part in the first 2 types of conversations. ***

ive heard sikhs in uk raid places cause they believe their was alchole and meat at the location and took the guru granth sahib out of the building what about people who download the guru granth sahib onto their computers and watch porn on the same computer how should those people be dealt and when are sikhs crossing the line into idol worship respect guru granth sahib teachings by practising them but it just seems like sikhism has bin mixed with hinduism with how sikhs treat the guru granth sahib and this may be do to the fact of british control of the gurdwaras and 100 years ago illiterate sikhs growing up with hindus getting two customs mixed together

All of lot of people criticise the EDL but Tommy Robinson held his own on the radio show last week.

Hello all! I have been quite upset by the prejudices people hold against other religions, so have been trying to write a book which can educate adults and children on the basics of major religions, showing the links between them. However, I am personally not a Sikh, so would be very grateful if you could look over this document and tell me what I should add/subtract/change please? Sorry to trouble you all, but if you do help, it would be most kind :')

This is the best summary of 1984 I've heard for a long time.

Canada's a shythole. My friend and his family migrated from UK there in 1987 and they were back in six months. Apnay in Canada are a queer bunch. You see them in Punjab with their maple leaf flags on their cars. You don't get apnay from UK or even USA do that. The accent is also a piece of crud as well

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh You can support them by like them on facebook...... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Babbar-Khalsa-Radio/365857486859975

hi all prices are not set by the sk team but by the individual user. if you don't agree with a price you can ask the question, such is the structure of the site. nevertheless join in with debates, loads of new posts have been uploaded

WaheguruJiKaKhalsa!!WaheguruJiKiFateh Untraced History Of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji In Nepal,

Good luck with your book and message sister! Here Guru Sahib tells us which rituals and religion is the best: http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=897

BUMP!!! Brilliant katha, would recommend to everyone to take out the hour or two that it lasts for and learn for yourself how parpakh Sant Jarnail Singh Jee really were/are. Can anyone shed any light on the book that Baba Ranjit Singh jee is referring to??? Was this the one that was banned?

this is the first katha I have heard from this baba, really good stuff

Must Listen! Beautiful story of Mata Bhaagbhari near the end of the Katha

Than you veer sat ji, I am not saying i am the perfect singh or that i am superior now i have taken amrit, but to be told that rehat is wrong meat is ok ,that the panj pyare are fake and wrong about meat , to believe in the Gurus is wrong, well to me as a new sikhi it hurts and maybe i have gone off a bit and used a strong term, i have learnt a lot from this debate and this forum over the last few months, i am not going to reply to kullykhalsa ji as i feel he has a negative attitude toward fellow amritdharis, so i will not give him cause to get upset like neo ji does and hence i dont reply to his comments anymore. I thankyou for you support sat ji.

It's actually the other way round. In the censuses before the 1911 census, if a person with Kesh and a Sikh appearance presented themselves to the enumerator as a Hindu, his religion would be recorded as Hindu but he would be included in the Sikh figure, hence the large number of Hindu Sikhs in 1881. Only in 1911 were the enumerators instructed to record the religion as whatever the person said it was. So if a person of Sikh appearance called himself a Hindu, he would be placed in the Hindu total. The only censuses of the late 1800s were the 1881 and 1891 census. Your contention still fails because the 1901 census still showed a significant number of Hindu Jats. Well in 1901 after the flawed censuses of 1881 and 1891, in Jalandhar the Dhariwal Got had 1,164 Hindus and 1,518 Sikhs.

http://www.sikharchives.com/?p=7468 Is there any surprise this sort of filth is filtering in to our Gurdware in front of Guru Sahib when we seem to be wasting out energy vehemently 'protecting the rights' of such bakwas/gandh. Whilst we don’t have hatred towards any indivisual, it is important to take a firm stance against this bakwas. I'm glad the Akal Takht has spoken out against this nonsense. We need to follow suit. http://www.sikhnet.com/news/akal-takht-says-no-gay-relationships

You must have a problem with understanding simple English. For the N’th time all I am saying is that from a Sikh prospective homosexuality is an unacceptable sin like countless others such as rape, paedophilia and slavery. I have not gone as far as saying which is worse as I don't consider that my duty. It is enough knowing it is wrong to prevent it (or you would think so).

Legal Singh Jee, you cannot just conveniently dismiss factual proof like census data just because it does not agree with your preconceived notions. Pick up any book on the history of Jatts, written by historians, they always quote these census reports for every Gote they write about. I'm not doubting your own family's historical link to the past. But to say every single Jalandhar Jatt became a Sikh during or before the 1700s is not accurate. 1700s is the most difficult time in Sikh history. Sikhs faced genocide after genocide. It was considered a crime just to be a Sikh and this crime was punishable by death. Sikhs were forced to abandon their homes and live in jungles just to survive, this was no easy decision for those brave Singhs. To say every single Jalandhar Jatt was a Sikh warrior during this time is a very bold statement. Only 5% of people in all of Punjab(of all castes) were brave enough to want to be Sikhs and they were evenly yet thinly distributed all over Majha, Malwa Doaba. Majha probably having the largest share, followed by Malwa then Doaba to be historically fair.

Legal Singh, The reason why the debate is going in different directions is because points of view counter to your own are being presented and as yet you have not been able to give an answer to these. You said 1881 census was flawed but then what about the 1891 or 1901? Your point would have value if in 1881 Hindu and Sikh Jats were equal in number and in 1891 and in every census afterwards Sikh Jats jumped to 80% and Hindus fell to 20% of the non-Muslim Jat popilation. But this is not the case. You state that no Sikh Jat has discovered that he had Hindu ancestors. If you go back long enough you will get Hindu names. Have you asked every Jat and have they given you the same answer? You might just know Jats from your area and your area as you state was an area settled by Sikh Jats. You presented your point that the Sikh Jats, if they really received so many Hindu Jat converts then they would have increased as a percentage of the total Sikh population but I showed you with statistics that this was not the case because the non-Jat converts during the same period were so much higher. Unless you answer the above points then this debate will not be going anywhere.

The Sikhs that he killed were probably all young Sikh boys. Imagine the pain their mothers and fathers must have gone through knowing their young son is no more. The worst part it, these Punjab police men doing the dirty work were belonging to Sikh community themselves. But greed for money was so strong in them they didn't once think what a huge sin they are committing for a few ruppees.

Legal Veerji again u are missing a glaringly obvious point. Let's say African Americans (or Sikhs for the purpose of the analogy) comprise 5% of the American population in 1797. Let say half of the African Americans are Baptists (or from the Jatt tribe in this analogy). Let's say some argue that all African Americans that are Baptists today in 2013 were already Baptists in the 1700's. Then if the African American percentage of the American population jumps to 13% by 1947 (and in the analogy Sikhs, Hindu's and Muslims have equal birth rates in the period 1797-1947) ... then the Baptist percentage of African Americans should be closer to 20% in 1947. Do you agree with that or do you even disagree with that in terms of how the analogy relates to Punjabi's? Muslims and Hindu's are absolutely relavant as they are who overwhelmingly comprised the non-Sikh majority in 1947 If there are five red apples and eight green apples in a basket of thirteen would that make the red apples a minority? If there are five Dhariwals and eight Dhaliwals at a gathering do the Dhariwals consitute a minority of those present? As u know in 1797 Sikh were barely 5% of all Punjabi's and in 1947 Sikhs were 13% of all Punjabi's. Therefore in absolute numbers the "pre-1800 Sikh ancestry" Sikhs are a 5 in 13 minority within the Panth in this context. If the percentage of Sikhs with Jatt ancestry was 50% in 1797 then the Jatt percentage should fall to 20% of the Panth with a 160% influx of new non-Jatt converts to Sikhi. It didn't fall as low as that and without the Singh Sabha movement doing the massive parchaar they did to folks of all ancestries Haryana state would have been much bigger than the 1966 boundary and the Sikh Panth's current population far far smaller. By the way are u Dhaliwal or Dhariwal? :lol2: But seriously why not just throw your tribal identity in the trash as Guru Sahib ordered? When the Pakistani Muslims and Hindu Jatts in Delhi Police unleashed genocide on the Sikh Panth they didn't really care too much if one was of pre-1800 convert ancestry or if a Sikh was from one tribe or another. All the Muslims + Hindu's who despise us were interested in was that we Sikhs die a painful death as they fear+hate the Sikh ideology of equality + Manas ki jaath sabhe ek hi pechaanbo

Canada is a different thing to 2 different types of people. The ones who live in Canad and the ones who don't. The ones who live there don't seem to realise or understand what their true position is. For example my cousins in Toronto tell me Toronto is the most mult-cultural city on earth. This is in fact a fairy-tale and shows how a single remark can get re-hashed when used over and over again. In fact, 20 years ago, someone important (i'm not sure who) said Toronto was "one of the most multi-cultural cities" in north america. Since then, Canadians, through their media, have re-used and misquoted that and now actually believe their city is the most multi-cultural. Anyone who goes there from London, where 350 different languages are spoken on the streets each day, sees very quickly how false that is. Canadians keep thinking they have a truly world class city in Toronto. They don't. According to the world city rankings Toronto is a 3rd tier city on the same level as Frankfurt, Mumbhai and Jakarta. Cities such as Paris, Tolyo and Sydney are in the 2nd tier with only London and New York considered top tier Alpha ++ cities. But the Candians arn't told any of this. They are not told how backward and behind other cities their mass transit system is for example. They are not told how most other civilised countries, such as those in Europe, have free health-care and safety nets and free public housing and free education etc. Instead, Canadians simnply compare these values they have with the Americans and conclude that Canada must be the most caring and civilised in the world. I know the country well and I know it to be full of misconceptions. For example Canadians convince themselves they are the best environmentalists. They are not and thats not how the world sees them at all. In fact, by per population Canada is the worst polluter on earth just slightly behind Saudi Arabia and the USA. Canadians think of themselves as caring but what they don't realise is that when most of the world thinks of Canada it instantly thinks of images of Canadians clubbing baby seals to death as that is the only time Canada is mentioned on TV. They think they had an Olympics there a few years ago but what they don't realise is that apart from a few people in the snow mountains of Switerland, the French Alps and Norway, nobody in the world even knew there was a winter olympics going on. Its a nice country to live in. Probably the nicest in fact. But thats it. Its everybody's 'nice friend'. Nice friends are exactly that.....simply nice. They don't have attitude and they don't move with the big boys. Read international media and you wouldn't even know Canada exists. Read the Sikh media and you'd think Canada is the most important and powerful country in the world. The fact is Canada could have a Sikh Prime Minister and a Cabinet made up entirely of Sikhs and the rest of the world would still be none the wiser as to who the Sikhs are. The country would have to experience a tsunami, earthquake and plague all in one day before it finally gets mentioned in the world media. Having all the Sikhs in the world in Canada is very similar to having all the Sikhs in the world in Punjab : Little or no exposure to the wider world who ignore both places So.....whats the point of all this ? Well, its to remind my Canadian cousins that they should sit back and enjoy life because that personal life is extremely comfortable and good. Sometimes its good to be boring and ignored because you can get on with a peaceful family life. You can enjoy home life far more when you know nobody's watching. And trust me....there ain't nobody watching.

This Policeman should be encouraged to tell all about the Genocide of Sikhs. The shocking thing is that a low level Policeman can kill 83 Sikhs , multiply that out with the thousands of policeman involved and figures of 250,000 Sikhs murdered seem quite plausible. He should be encouraged to spill the beans on his senior officers KP GIll, Saini and the political people involve from the Congress and some Akalis. The Sada Haq film and the general awareness of the Genocide is bringing people to talk about what happened.

There are many sad parts to this whole story, but one of the most saddest parts that stood out to me is the fact that even this man's truth isn't clean and free. His truth has many strings attached to it and is covered with corruption, anger, revenge and greed. The only reason he came out with this truth is to vent his frustrations and to get back at all of his higher-ups who didn't give him the promotions which he was promised in return for conducting all of those fake encounters. After all of these years he probably didn't feel bad about anything and was probably drooling and dreaming about all of the promotions that he would get sooner or later. Then after 24 years of working with the Punjab Police, he realizes that he isn't getting any more promotions and didn't reach nearly as high-up as he dreamed, so now he comes out with the truth. To me, that's one of the saddest parts of this whole thing. That the truth isn't even the truth anymore. It has corruption, greed and strings attached to it. If he got (close to) all of the promotions he wanted, he probably would never have came out with this confession. Maybe this is why Guru Sahib wrote the following, in order to combat such types of 'truth tellers': Sachoh Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar |5| Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5|| Because even if someone tells the truth, it is still nothing compared to truthful living. A prime example is the case we have here in this topic. Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Jeeo Maharaj!!!

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Dhanaasaree, First Mehl: ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ If the Lord bestows His Glance of Grace, then one remembers Him in meditation. ਆਤਮਾ ਦ੍ਰਵੈ ਰਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ The soul is softened, and he remains absorbed in the Lord's Love. ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਏਕੋ ਕਰੈ ॥ His soul and the Supreme Soul become one. ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥ The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1|| ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ By Guru's Grace, God is found. ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ One's consciousness is attached to the Lord, and so Death does not devour him. ||1||Pause|| ਸਚਿ ਸਿਮਰਿਐ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥ Remembering the True Lord in meditation, one is enlightened. ਤਾ ਤੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਰਹੈ ਉਦਾਸੁ ॥ Then, in the midst of Maya, he remains detached. ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਐਸੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ Such is the Glory of the True Guru; ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਚੇ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥ in the midst of children and spouses, they attain emancipation. ||2|| ਐਸੀ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ Such is the service which the Lord's servant performs, ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੈ ॥ that he dedicates his soul to the Lord, to whom it belongs. ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ One who is pleasing to the Lord and Master is acceptable. ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵੈ ਮਾਣੁ ॥੩॥ Such a servant obtains honor in the Court of the Lord. ||3|| ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਾਏ ॥ He enshrines the image of the True Guru in his heart. ਜੋ ਇਛੈ ਸੋਈ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ He obtains the rewards which he desires. ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ The True Lord and Master grants His Grace; ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਕੈਸਾ ਡਰੈ ॥੪॥ how can such a servant be afraid of death? ||4|| ਭਨਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Prays Nanak, practice contemplation, ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਿਉ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ and enshrine love for the True Word of His Bani. ਤਾ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ Then, you shall find the Gate of Salvation. ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਇਹੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੫॥੨॥੪॥ This Shabad is the most excellent of all chanting and austere meditations. ||5||2||4|| ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Gond, Fifth Mehl: ਅਚਰਜ ਕਥਾ ਮਹਾ ਅਨੂਪ ॥ Wondrous and beautiful is the description, ਪ੍ਰਾਤਮਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਰੂਪੁ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ of the beauty of the Supreme Soul, the Supreme Lord God. ||Pause|| ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬੂਢਾ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬਾਲਾ ॥ He is not old; He is not young. ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਮ ਜਾਲਾ ॥ He is not in pain; He is not caught in Death's noose. ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ He does not die; He does not go away. ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ In the beginning, and throughout the ages, He is permeating everywhere. ||1|| ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਉਸਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਸੀਤੁ ॥ He is not hot; He is not cold. ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਦੁਸਮਨੁ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ॥ He has no enemy; He has no friend. ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਹਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਸੋਗੁ ॥ He is not happy; He is not sad. ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਇਹੁ ਕਰਨੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥ Everything belongs to Him; He can do anything. ||2|| ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਬਾਪੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ He has no father; He has no mother. ਇਹੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਹੋਤਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ He is beyond the beyond, and has always been so. ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਕਾ ਇਸੁ ਲੇਪੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ He is not affected by virtue or vice. ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਜਾਗੈ ॥੩॥ Deep within each and every heart, He is always awake and aware. ||3|| ਤੀਨਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਇਕ ਸਕਤਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ From the three qualities, the one mechanism of Maya was produced. ਮਹਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਹੈ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ The great Maya is only His shadow. ਅਛਲ ਅਛੇਦ ਅਭੇਦ ਦਇਆਲ ॥ He is undeceivable, impenetrable, unfathomable and merciful. ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਸਦਾ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥ He is merciful to the meek, forever compassionate. ਤਾ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥ His state and limits cannot ever be known. ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੨੧॥ Nanak is a sacrifice, a sacrifice to Him. ||4||19||21|| ਤ੍ਵ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ BY THY GRACE ਦਿਨ ਅਜਬ ਏਕ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਅਨਭਉ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਹਦ ਅਕਾਮ ॥ On a day the curious soul (asked): The infinite and Desire less Lord, the Intuitive Entity. ਅਨਛਿੱਜ ਤੇਜ ਆਜਾਨ ਬਾਹੁ ॥ ਰਾਜਾਨ ਰਾਜੁ ਸਾਹਾਨ ਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥੧੨੬॥ Of everlasting Glory and long-armed; the King of kings and Emperor of emperors.1.126. ਉਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥ The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible; ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥ What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127. ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥ The Higher Soul said: ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥ This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless. ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥ Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228. ਡੋਬਿਓ ਨ ਡੁਬੈ ਸੋਖਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਟਿਓ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਨ ਬਾਰਿਯੋ ਬਰਾਇ ॥ It is neither drowned nor soaked; It can neither be chopped nor burnt. ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਸਤ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਤ ਪਾਤ ॥੪॥੧੨੯॥ It cannot be assailed by the blow of weapon; It hath neither an enemy nor a friend, neither caste not lineage.4.129. ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਹੰਸ ਸਤ ਸਤ ਪ੍ਰਘਾਇ ॥ ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਖੰਡਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ By the blow of thousands of enemies, It is neither wasted away nor fragmented. ਨਹੀ ਜਰੈ ਨੈਕ ਪਾਵਕ ਮੰਝਾਰ ॥ ਬੋਰੈ ਨ ਸਿੰਧ ਸੋਖੈ ਨ ਬਯਾਰ ॥੫॥੧੩੦॥ It is not burnt even in the fire. It is neither drowned in the sea nor soaked by the air.5.130. ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਮੀਤ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਪੁਰਖੋਤਮ ਪੂਰਾ । ਪੋਖਨਹਾਰਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਨ ਊਰਾ । ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਪਤਿ ਸਦ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਾ । ਵਾਹ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਓ ਪੁਰਖ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸੂਰਾ । ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਜੀਅ ਜਪਿ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੀ ਵੇਲਾ । ਵਾਹ ਵਾਹ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ ੧੪ ॥ The life patron of Puranas, is the perfect Supreme Soul. Har, the Sustaining Lord, is not deficient in protection. Hail! Manifested is the Supreme Being in the countenance of gallant Guru Gobind Singh, Who is spectacular, and with his marvels, profusely he is Satguru, the True Lord. Remember day and night, the virtues of Har who, at the times honest, endows truth. Hail, hail (Guru) Gobind Singh; He, Himself, is the Master and the Disciple too. | 14 | Also check out this Shabad... http://sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID=B&PageNo=&ShabadID=6463&Format=2 paarabreham pooran purakh paramaesur dhaathaa|| pathith paavan paramaathamaa sarab a(n)thir jaathaa|| har dhaanaa beenaa baesumaar baea(n)th bidhhaathaa|| banavaaree bakhasi(n)dh aap aapae pithaa maathaa|| eih maanas janam amol hai milanae kee vaelaa|| vaah vaah gobi(n)dh si(n)gh aapae gur chaelaa ||11||

I totally agree with you, Jonny, that having a longer line of ancestors who were Sikh means nothing. It is foolish to feel pride in such a thing if you yourself are falling short. And yes, I too have seen examples of Sikhs who come from well known families (from the Lahore Darbar or families that were prominent during the misl period) who are now monay. I can only speak for myself, but the main reasons I am interested in this discussion have nothing to do with trying to establish which group of Sikhs are more "pakkay" or true. Rather, I want to know: 1. Considering how we are one of the only major faiths which did not grow by forced conversion, it is interesting to learn about when and why our ranks grew 2. I find it rather surprising that basically all punjabi-speaking jatts in India are Sikh while basically all hindi-speaking jats in India are Hindu. Why is this split so perfect? 3. It's always interesting to hear perspectives that challenge what we conventionally hold to be true, and that's why I wanted to know more about the example of your family 4. Identity is such an integral part of Sikhi, and it is interesting to explore what has defined us over the years and what that might say about our future Anyway, what would you say about my theory that the shift in numbers largely had to do with how people were being identified (by themselves and the British)? From what I've read about Punjab prior to the Singh Sabha movement, there was a large population of Punjabis who observed some Hindu practices along with some Sikh practices. Perhaps it is most accurate to say that what the Singh Sabha movement did was not so much convert people, but rather define more clearly for the masses how Sikhi was supposed to be practiced, and in turn influence people who had already been exposed to Sikhi to start practicing it properly. In 1881, for instance, a sardar who practiced some Hindu rituals might have been counted as a Sikh. On the other hand, monay jatts who partook in Sikh practices as well as Hindu practices might have been counted as Hindus. After the Singh Sabha movement, many Sikhs had stopped practicing Hindu rituals so it may have been easier to distinguish between Hindus and Sikhs. Moreover, I'm wondering if many of the monay jatts of 1881 who tread the line between Sikhi and Hinduism (and were probably counted as HIndus) had by 1931 become keshdhari sikhs (or their descendants had become keshdhari sikhs). That could explain both the discrepancy in the Sikh/Hindu division among jatts, while at the same time not directly conflicting with the widely held view that the vast majority of jatt Sikhs have had Sikhi in their family (whether in the strict khalsa tradition, or as monay who observed some Sikh practices) since the early 1700s.

Not at all. If you talk to any Jatt about there being such a thing called a Punjabi Hindu Jatt before the Singh Sabha movement he will cry out "BLASPHEMY!!" nearly all of us have grown up to think that we were converted to Sikhi since either the Guru period or 1700s. It makes us feel good about ourselves knowing that almost like we have divine roots. But when we find out the truth we react in disbelief like a kid when he finds out Santa Clause is not real. There is no shame if your ancestor became a Sikh post 1700s period. My own family: my Dadke became Sikhs during Singh Sabha movement, my ancestor from my Naanke became a Sikh during the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule and they are from Patti(tarn taran) and subsequently joined the army of Lahore Durbar. So both sides of my family became Sikhs after the 1700s period. But today, except for my own family, everyone from both my naanke and daadke are now monay/patit. For me that is more shameful than anything else. The British were very meticulous when it came to their census reports. They had good reasons too. Most of their army was recruited from so called martial castes belonging to Punjab and Rajputana. Their census not only recorded how numerous the members of each caste were, but even down to every single Gote/gotra, it's population and which religion it's members subscribe to. Even the modern Indian census is not this detailed nor this accurate. The Brits used this information and created manuals on to which Gote they thought seemed fit enough for their army. For example amongst the Hindu Rajputs, some Rajputs were not recruited because members of their Gote might have participated in the 1857 mutiny, while those people belonging to the Gote which were loyal to them were given preference. Amongst the Punjabi Muslims, the Brits gave preference in recruitment to the Rajput Muslims of Pothohar region over all other Punjabi Rajput Muslims. Sikhs whose ancestor converted before the 1700s is not high nor mighty. I personally know of descendants of such respected puraatan Singhs like Mehtab Singh(killer of Massa Ranghar), Teja Singh Samundary(Akali movement leader) even a descendant of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee who are now Monay! does that make them a better Sikh than a rehitvaan Sikh whose ancestor became a Sikh post 1700s? or even a newly converted Sikh who is rehitvaan? Lets not act like how Arab Muslims act who treat non Arab Muslims as inferior to them.

They had foxes in everyone's dens.

putt halle nah magaj maari ja, padhhaayi shadhhaayi mukaa lai, saari umer pei aa, theeka? ja shabash mera shona bachhaa...hor koi chajj di gall haigi puchhan nu??

Someone once asked me to sum up Sikhism in one word. I did it in two : Organised Compassion Many European countries do of course better articulate the above Sikh ideals better than Canada. For example, in most of the northern European countries everything is free regardless of social status ; pure equality. The benefits are universal. Both rich and poor get the same welfare whether they want them or not. The same free education etc etc. Not sure what the 'Canadian spirit' is but in essence doesn't history show us that it is being an American anglican who moves north out of loyalty to the crown at the time of American independence and has since then been ruled by a German monarch sitting in another foreign country thousands of miles away in another continent ? Happy Canada Day :biggrin2:

Vaheguru.... How could we have let this happen? a mother of a Shaheed is a mother of all Sikhs. She should be treated as a queen not like this. This is the biggest shame on all of us if we cannot do anything for this blessed lady. Is there a way we can help her financially?

What the hell? Is there any way we can help? This is no joke, we need to help Bibi Ji. Perhaps someone could ask Pinglewara to get involved? I know they're a hospital, but Bibi Ji is mentally ill.

Legal Singh Your theory falls flat because areas such as Jalandhar and Hoshiarpur which were a part of the Lahore state had more Hindus Jats than Sikh Jats. This was also the case with Sialkot and Gujranwala districs. If your theory was correct then in Gujranwala most of the Hindu Jats would have been Sikhs because Gujranwala had been the base of the forefathers of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and there would have been a great urge among the HIndu Jats to become Sikh being from the same area as the Maharaja. The Gujranwala district also witnessed a great deal of turmoil because of the wars between the forefathers of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the Muslim tribes, Exactly the type of situation which if your analysis was correct would have led to a large number of Hindu Jats becoming Sikhs. You theory also falls flat because the three districts of Punjab which were under British control before the annexation of Punjab, Ferozpur, Ludhiana and Ambala, only Ambala district had more Hindu Jats than Sikh Jats. This was because half the district was in the area now known as Haryana. Your theory also doesn't hold true because Ferozpur had been under a Misldar until it was taken over by the British in 1835. It was under the protection of the British from 1809 as same as the Sikh states in Malwa. Patiala, Faridkot and Nabha states which were under the protection of the British since 1809 also had more Sikh Jats than Hindu Jats. In the case Patiala and Nabha this is all the more remarkable as they included large parts of the region now known as Haryana.

Did someone from the forum go up to them and insult their religion? If we are so sensitive about what someone claims to have done for us. There being no verification for their story, then we should really be thinking about changing some of the verse of Bachittar Natak. I mean is it not highly insulting to these good Muslims' religion to say that Mohammed subverted his own mission for which God sent him and created his own sect rather than bring people to the worship of God? How about the insult of referring to Allah as endowing each being with his light so how can anyone say who is good or bad. The Quran clearly tells us that non-believers are like animals so are we not insulting Islam by dismissing the Quran's claims? How about when the same verse refers to Allah as permeating in all his creation, something that is heresy in Islam? I suggest we get a committee of LegalSingh, Neo, Thunderousdominator together so they can start to process of editing, so that Muslims don't feel insulted.

The family itself claims they are staunch Muslims. Just for your info, Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj is Jagat Guru, meaning Guru of ENTIRE humanity, NOT just Sikhs. Not happy to delete them either. Fine, then let them.

I don't really agree with the comments on this. If you were to get a part time job in say Tescos, you'd be selling meat and alcohol. You aren't actually consuming these so whats the harm? If you live in the western world and want a part time Un-skilled job, you really have no choice in this matter. I think its a little naive to say sit at home unemployed just because you refuse to scan a bottle or stack some bottles on a shelf.

i hope some of the bandhars on here learn from this

thanks for reply.. sorry i resonded to your other post here regarding sikh gangsters in us.. again personally lets not get confused with culture background and religion..Anyway back to the point i made for me personally i see both as insults or maybe you are not aware of groups who more or less supported and justified the woolwich attack... veer i hope you can appreciate thats its difficult for convo on forums so pls do a little research into the incidents we are talking about.... I do not speak on behalf of the sikh nation or this website but something i woukd expect from myself and sikh authorities if we were in a similar situation as muslims are in... If somebody or group was to insult our gurus publicly i would protest and " go nuts", but i would also react the same if a sikh butchered aninnocent person, for exampl an innocent hindu (i say hindu because of 1984 which is still fresh to this day).... now we cannot be responsible for individuals who claim to be sikh but if they were shouting sikh slogans and being backed (or actions being justified) by some sikh organisations in the uk personally i would protest out side those sikh organisation buildings to shut down and/or go back to india... now we have a sitation connected to the woolwich incident where muslim groups are justifing their action inparticual the luton group..check out ajem choudry... my question to uk muslims with their TV speeces was why not protest against these people and their hate ideology...make a real statement.. I agree with you that this tommy guy is a dangerous man as he is clued up and in my opinion is genuine...

So selling/drinking alcohol is wrong, but then in another post /topic you said that to tell a new to sikhi person that his drinking alcohol is against sikhi would frighten him away. Seems you are changing your views as you are going along, surely if you dont tell someone that his drinking alcohol is wrong in sikhi that is also against Gurmat. Irrespective of whether it will turn them off sikhi or not. quote below you said I did't want to post here, but it's really hurting to see ke apan kise nu sewa vi ni karan dinde. Members here are bashing on "BasicsofSikhi" for no reason. He did not say that alcohal is allowed, he meant at this point based on OP's level, as he's just new. BasicsofSikhi's youtube links provide all the required knowledge. Don't you think, one bhajj jana, je onu pehla hi kehdo tu daru ni peeni, meat ni khana, kesh rakh ke parna ban, prayian istaria nu ni dekhna, amritvele uthke path karin roj ishnana karke etc. These changes doesn't happen like this ke somebody ask and we do it. These happen from internally and by itself. And meditation is the key step for internal change. He'll get more knowledge of Sikhi as he has or will start reading books and translation of Gurbani. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/71965-new-with-sikhism/page-6

Yeah, still has my grandad as the jameen owner, even though he died like 6 years ago. No mention of my dad being the owner.

The Karai on SK are not the same as the cheaper mass maufactured ones Shastar man used to sell. These karai are professionally hand made using the highest quality steel and the finished to perfection. They are made to measure, not whatever fits you best. Its these exact kinds of budget Punjabi attitutes, that has caused a decline in our Gyaan, Kirtan, Architecture, Literature to name just a few areas. Weapons produced by the Sikh mainstream are laughable in quality and practicality. In the old days, a Singhs most expensive possessions were his shastar. He would get them hand made, to measure, in the highest quality and craftsmanship he could afford. The tears of the singhs who had to give up their prized possessions after teh 2nd Anglo sikh war are commemorated by the Biritsh eye witnesses who saw this sad day . Since then, Sikhs have never been able to claim back that great tradition of producnig the highest quality shastar. It seems that when ever apne make an earnest effort to bring quality to the Panth, all hell is raised. People have made Sikhi in many aspects... cheap. Every Singh who truly honours shatar should happily invest in and support those that procude quality shastar. And then they should do satkaar of those shastar and learn how to use them 'realistically' to a high level.