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Sant Jee always said to the Sikhs to be tyar bar tyar because you never know where and when a panga might take place.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, I am new to this forum, I saw this topic and began reading. I don't understand why people are diverting away from the original question: Are sikhs descendent of the hindu god ramchander? I want to point out I am not a scholar on Sikhi but I thought that I should share my thoughts on this topic. Firstly Guru Sahib is not a body and has never been, Guru Ji is the light of Waheguru i.e. Gurjot, which can be found throuogh Gur Shabad. It is this light that was in Guru Nanak Dev Ji from his prakash and it is this light that Guru Ji passed onto Guru Angad Dev Ji and so on until Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed on this light into the Shabad Guru, Guru Granth Sahib in 1708. For Guru Nanak Dev Ji to come to this world to spread the truth about Waheguru, he had to be born into a family. It so happens that yes this family have ancestory that goes back to ramchander but this does not mean that Guru Nanak was descended from ramchander but the family. Guru Ji is NOT human but Light. Also why stop at ramchander, he was a descendent of dasrath who was descended from someone else and so on... this ancestory can go on for a very long time, eventually we will end up that everything comes from Waheguru Ji. Therefore Sikhi is descended from the light of Waheguru, NOT from ramchander. Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is simply retelling history by explaining why Guru Nanak came to this earth. Bhul Chuk Maaf

Keeping kesh and becoming Amritdhari is the beginning of the journey, not the final destination. At home, anyone is free to read path and do nitnem etc, but when it comes to reading path in sangat at the gurdwara, then certain maryada has to be upheld, which normally means only Amritdharis are allowed to take part in Akhand Path seva. In smaller gurdwaras, where there are fewer Amritdharis readily available to do seva, I have seen non-Amritdharis participate in Akhand Path seva. I have seen plenty of non-Amritdharis/keshdharis do all kinds seva with pyar and sharda but have also seen many do seva without pyar and sharda, but then again the same applies to Amritdharis/keshdharis- you can’t tar both groups with the same brush. I guess the same thing applies to doing kirtan/katha on stage, surely it is best to practice what you preach, which is why almost always I have only ever seen Amritdhari kathavachaks/kirtanis on stage. The exception to this is sometimes you see children/teenagers with cut hair or trimmed beards do kirtan/play tabla on stage but I think this case is slightly different and perhaps it’s best to encourage and not deter these youngsters from taking part in seva, as who knows one day these children may grow up and keep kesh. The main thing is that in terms of keeping rehat, both inner rehat and outer rehat are important- you can’t have one without the other. Someone may take Amrit, wear the panj kakkars and have the outer appearance of an Amritdhari, but if that person makes no effort to maintain inner rehat and is corrupted by the panj chor and has no simran, seva, sangat or nitnem- then is this person really better than someone who may cut their hair, but makes a conscious effort to do nitnem, read and contemplate on Gurbani, do seva, attend gurdwara and sits in sangat? Maybe doing all these things will eventually lead that person to adopt kesh and lead a Gursikh jeevan. Everyone has their own unique relationship with Guru Ji, and as a result of previous karams and also efforts in this lifetime, some of us may struggle to keep kesh while others find it easy, some Amritdharis may spend many years still struggling to wake up at Amritvela and maintain nitnem, whilst someone with cut hair may find it easy to maintain Amrtivela nitnem. Becoming Amritdhari is without a doubt the minimum requirement of being a Gursikh, but there is no ‘one size fits all’ approach as everyone is at different levels in their bhagti. We should all strive to become Amritdhari and maintain both inner and outer rehat to the highest standards possible, but need to remember that Amrit di daat is given, not taken. When Guru Ji bestows kirpa on someone, anything is possible and your whole jeevan can change in an instant. To answer the question, ‘moneh’ do have the right to talk and ask questions about Sikhi- how else are they meant to learn anything? But when it comes to talking on stage or in sangat, then certain maryada has to be followed and I don’t think it’s discrimination to ensure that only Amritdhari kirtanis/kathavachaks/parcharaks sit on stage. The bottom line is that everyone has to start somewhere, whether that is by just reading Jap Ji Sahib every day, going to gurdwara every day, doing seva in langar, or becoming Amritdhari. Sometimes it’s so easy to sit back and judge others, but why not focus that energy on judging ourselves and trying to become better Sikhs ourselves?

1965 was such a war that it could have gone either way. The Pakistani army at the time was very powerful since it also had the revevue and resourses of east Pakistan(Bangladesh) at it's disposal. Gen Harbaksh Singh Jee deserves all the credit for 1965 war going in India's favour. Sadly, not many Sikhs(or Indians) know of this unsung hero of the Sikh Qaum. He deserved to be the 8th chief of staff of the Indian armed forces. No one deserved this title more than him based on experience and expertise, but since he was a Sikh he was not given promotion and was retired, Instead Indira Gandhi gave this promotion to a junior Parsi officer, Sam Manekshaw who was who was very close to Indira Gandhi. Because of this promotion he ended up receiving all the glory and praise for 1971 war.

The javaans of the Sikh regiment were clearly told that the time for Shaheedi has arrived. Not a single one stepped back. They tied anti tank mines on their stomachs and ran towards the US made Patton tanks which the Pak army had. These Singhs had themselves blown into pieces and also shred those tanks to bits, thus causing the Pakis to retreat.

The greatness of the Sikhs is not only that they uprooted the Mughal and Afghan empire, but the fact that they acted as an iron wall to the path of central asian hordes who went through Punjab to loot India. Even historian Hari Ram Gupta noted this as the main reason why Mughal empire finished is because of lack of Turkic and Afghan warriors in their armies, as a result they had to recruit and rely on the Indian Muslims who were physically weaker and not as aggressive as the central Asian warriors. With lack of fresh soldiers from central Asia to replenish the Muslim armies of India, the Muslim rulers could not resist popular uprisings through out India. You mentioned South India, did you know Tipu Sultan's empire was in South India. He had a strong army. He was also a fanatical Muslim who forcibly converted many South Indians to Islam. He like all the other Muslim rulers of India had sent letters after letters to the Afghans to invade India in order to crush the non-Muslims and replenish their armies with tough Pathan warriors. But you know why the Afghans could not come to India? it is because Sikhs would not allow them to pass through Punjab. Sikhs deserve most of the credit for ending Islamic rule over India. This is old history, even the recent Indo Pak wars. Sikhs soldiers were the deciding factors for which India did not lose territory to Pakistan. Int he first Kashmir war, the tribal Pathan army would have conquered all of j&K state had it not been for the Sikh soldiers stopping them because the coward Dogra army could not face the Pathan insurgents and began to run away instead of fighting. The Sikhs would have reconquered all of J&K state back but nehru stopped them from advancing any further. The 1965 war, the Hindu generals had told Gen Harbaksh Singh to retreat and give up all the territory up to the river Beas. But Gen Harbaksh Singh refused to follow this order because by doing so would have meant the Pakistanis would have conquered Amritsar which had Sri Darbar Sahib and this was unacceptable for the Sikhs. So Indian army(actually Sikh army) under Gen Harbaksh Singh prevented the Pakistani army from taking over such a large chunk of Indian territory. India owes a lot to the Sikhs. Unfortunately the Hindus have forgotten all this and rather than thanking the Sikhs they attacked us in 1984 and carried out the Sikh genocide.

isnt today national slavery day for the sikhs?

People forgot who they really were, started changing their identities by doing sunnats and mundans, corrupted by five vices. So Akaal purkh ji came on earth as Guru Sahibaan to remind them who they really are and showing them the right way of living. So people who realized this, came back to their real identities, which is "Sikh". It is as simple as that.

Well done GPS paji i have been watching the videos from the seminar and it was great to see such an uprala ignorance is the disease and unfortunately many innocent young people have been misinformed about dasam granth and as you know DOUBT is kalyugs biggest weapon But instead of having the desired effect actually the "nindak movement" has had the opposite effect more and more Sikhs are trying to read and understand Dasam Granth Sahbi Ji if you want to KNOW what Guru Gobind Singh jis own views were then read Dasam Granth just one section of Teti Swaiye smashes the whole brahmanvaad accusation ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque; ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥ Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12. ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take birth from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL? ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥ If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13. ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥ Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shoot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan; ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥ He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14. ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥ Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you; ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥ Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15. ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥ Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed; ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥ O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16. (Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Teti Swaiye - Dasam Granth)

Exactly.They raise this subject on purpose to create mischief. Their motive is propaganda against writings of father of khalsa Guru Gobind singh ji and attack institution of amrit sanchar.

Enemies of panth are those who are not able to comprehend writings of Dasam Pita and quote those out of context. Dasam pita's writings are deep and this granth is of khalsa panth. There is no khalsa without this granth and there is sikhi without khalsa. Those who say that benti chaupai is framed by someone else in charitropakhayan are also our enemies. They need to be identified and weeded out from us as they are attacking Amrit sanchar of Khalsa openly now. Whole dasam granth word to word is from pen of Dasam pita.If someone cann't digest it he should follow another religion.What are they doing in sikhi? Why do not they forma another sect? That is a civilized way of resolving a dispute created by missionaries and bhasaurias and govt agents.

I think most reasonable, fair-minded Sikhs on this site would say gays can lead the lifestyle they feel they must lead (even if most Sikhs disagree with it) but as long as it doesn't mean the Anand Karaj is affected. I can respect that to be honest. I guess it gets into weird territory when there's a gay Sikh who really feels strongly about Sikhi; that's when it becomes strange for all involved.

Sikhi is for humanity.

About the bold part veer ji, I have not found this to be true. A great many of my friends are Atheist, not one has ever said anything bad about Sikhi, most have the utmost respect for it. I also don't feel like the term "theist" applies to a Sikh, "Sikhi" isn't really a theistic religion, that is an Abrahamic term, we shouldn't try to twist around our faith to fit into pre-designed western boxes and labels. Waheguru is a part of His creation, we are called upon to recognize his light in our fellow man, according to Guru Nanak, God is not in some far off place, He resides in each and every heart. This belief is the foundation for other Sikh beliefs like respect for all humanity, equality of the sexes, no discrimination based on color, caste, race, religion etc... that is logical, we should also remember that Guru Granth Sahib Ji isn't just for Sikhs, anyone from any faith or lack of faith can apply it's teachings to their life, I have a Muslim friend who reads it from time to time, he doesn't feel like it conflicts with his religion, that is because the teachings of Guru Ji emphasize this life, the importance of doing good while you are still here, it talks very little about the afterlife. I went through my own period of questioning/rebelling, my family is kind of cultural, but everything came into place after I started to read Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if I could find some fault with it, I would have a long time ago, but it is perfect, and is for everyone. Kind of off-topic, but yeah, no Atheist has ever told me that the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are "illogical". Sikhi is a rational religion

Yes panth needs to do more for equality for mone while striking right balance between upholding maryada and having mones experience sikhi (kirtan/seva of maharaj etc). Its very important sikhi does not get hijacked by right wing and equally not hijacked by left wing element, right balance needs to be striked as this might set a dangerous precedence where some mona'e- communist types/atheist types will hijack the equality and freedom and walk over maryada in gurdwaras. I purposed in the past, instead of having all amritdhari in kirtan seva , having mixture of amritdharis and mona in the kirtan seva, instead of having all amritdharis doing seva of maharaj, having mixture of monee and amritdhari do maharaj di seva together so there is no segregation nor there is no abuse/hijacking by left wing mindset.

I think stressing about what other Sikhs do is never the answer. The answer is-; 1. Improve you self and do not be a hypocrite like the ones you might see around you 2. Influence the people around you, parents,siblings, cousins, friends etc to improve themselve 3. Don't stress about the Sikhs you have little or no interaction with and over whom you will never have influence If enough Sikhs do this then there will be a lot less hypocrites amongst us.

Please watch Sikh Channel as it is LIVE right now. Source: Facebook ** IMPORTANT UPDATE ON DELHI VIOLENCE** By Ajmer Singh Randhawa The sad incident at Tilak Vihar Delhi -- as reported by an eye witness; Babu singh Dukhiya president of Tilak vihar victims informed me by phone that 4-5 sikh youths were just going on their way when all of them they were obstructed by some sweepers of adjacent colony and without any provocation they attacked on Sikh youths as they had some pre-planing similar to 1984. It was a pre-planned attack as they (sweeppers) were well equipped with sharp edged weapons called Churis, Knives etc. When some elderly Sikhs watched it, they interfered and objetced, soon the scuffle was over but in a short time these sweepers gathered in large numbers nearly 100-150 and attacked once again at Gurudwara Sahidganj at Tilak vihar. It provoked Sikhs as they had already faced 1984 in their life, soon a stiff resistance was made by Sikhs who gathered at once and by collecting anything to fight, they stopped the attack and gave a befitted reply. At this point Delhi Polcie which was so far a mute spectator enterd into scene and fired the tear shells on Sikhs and simultaniously opened fire upon them who were just trying to save their place of worship - their Gurudwara. nearly 5-6 Sikh youths got wounded by bullets. One Sikh was shot in his pelvic region, two sikhs got bullets in their hands, one bullet pierced an ear of Sikh (hardly saved) and another one Sikh received a bullet in his neck. (Babu singh Dukhiya was there with this person when talked to me on phone). Other Sikhs wounded got injuries due to pelting stones by these sweepers. Police didn't made any attempt to save the gurudwara but supported the attack and by opening fire upon Sikhs. This is confirmed from Babu singh dukhiya. I hereby request you all the Sikhs to please keep some money for immediate help to victims. It may be needed any time. Though i am not part of Seva84.com but i appeal them to intervene and provide all the medical help and monetary help as immediate help to wounded Sikh brothers to support their families in need of hour as i do not have any hope on Delhi/indian govt which only support its vote bank. Kindly donate to www.seva84.com at this need of hour as this is the only trusted organization with its volunteers in Delhi to be present and provide all needed help. Gurudwara Shaheedganj at Tilak Vihar was attacked, Sikhs were fired at, 4 to 8 Sikhs have been injured, there are no causalities as of now. Sikhs of Delhi must support Sikhs of Tilak Vihar and do everything possible to assist them. Worldwide Sangat, Seva84 is looking after wounded Sikhs. Please donate to www.seva84.come and assist Shaheed Parivars of 1984 who have been once again made to face this brutality. We are keeping an eye on situation and the people who instigated Violence against Sikhs ( Dalit community of 80 Gaj area who attacked Gurughar and Sikhs).

''This time next year, ................'' he said :lol2:

Independance day gift to Sikhs. When will Sikhs wake up? Khalsa is Baaghi or Badshah. Our innocents are being hanged. Our religion is being attacked. Our Gurdwareh are not safe, turned into Mandirs or attacked repeatedly. Agencies send criminals to spread terror in Punjab by killing rural Sikhs. Anti-Sikh cults and persons have full supports of the state. The mass murderers of Sikhs have been given promotions, are ministers or decorated high ranking officers. The life sentence of (Hindu) Kishori Lal, who murdered over 15 Sikhs in 84, is being commuted but 95 year old (Sikh) Asa Singh is arrested for an alleged robbery (happened in 1987) more than 20 years later (and is kept in jail illegally since persons over 80 can't be jailed). Time to work towards achieving our Halemi Raj. Train hard, lift weights like Singhs in Puratan times, take up martial arts or boxing, keep in your mind that you live with pride and die with honor. Without weapons and Kesh - you are nothing but a sheep - who can be led anywhere by the ear An order has come from the master, without uncut hair and weapons do not come before me Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji

It's already been established anand karaj should not be between homosexuals but only sikh man and sikh woman. But i just wanted to point out after research on this shabad..this shabad does not talks about homosexuals nor it condemns them to hell a) as khusrai is known as transexual/ਹਿਜੜੇ (3rd gender) not homosexuals b) mainly because shabad is talking about nature of fools by giving examples - deep water to a fish, vast sky do to the bird, cold do to stone, married life to a eunuch, sandalwood oil to dog, teaching deaf person, light before blind man, gold before herd of cattle etc at the end - by giving all these examples guru maharaj says- this is nature of fool everything he speaks is useless and wasted. Lets not bring gurbani into this as we are inadvertently/advertently fall into misinterpertating gurbani which can be further hijacked by right wing element in our panth, uphelding maryada is good enough to ban anand karaj marriage between homosexuals.

The last Singh in the above video said it right. Time for Sikhs to be Tyar Bar Tyar. During the 84 riots, thousands of Sikhs were killed because they were caught unarmed and unaware. They did not expect an attack. This time Sikhs should become Shastardhari. If one can, they should get gun licences. DSGMC or some Sikh sanstha should train Sikhs how to react or what to do in a riot like situation.

The biggest real life joke on us is staring us right in the face. We proclaim loudly and condemn the faith and community of Chandu, Gangu, Sucha Nand, Lakhpat Rai, Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, and also the faith and community of Jahangir, Aurangzeb, Wazir Khan, Abdali, Mir Mannu etc. but are always hush about the background and faith of Prithi Chand, Ram Rai, Prakash Badal, Longowal, Gen. Brar, KP Gill, Chief Minister Beanta etc. who we outright label as "They are not one of us". We complain about how the Sikh contribution to the Indian independence struggle is always neglected because we are a minority, yet we ourselves never made an attempt (or possibly a meagre one) to highlight the significant contributions and sacrifices made by those who (in one form or another) are a minority within the Sikh community. We are proud to proclaim the ethnicity of Baba Deep Singh ji, Baba Buddha ji, Mata Bhaag Kaur ji (Mai Bhago), Shaheed Bhagat Singh, Shaheed Mehtab Singh, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Shaheed Udham Singh ji etc. but when it comes to the ancestry of Bhai Kirpa Singh ji, his brother Bhai Sanmukh Singh ji, Bhai Jiwan Singh ji (Shaheeds at Chamkaur Sahib), Bhai Singha Purohit, his son Bhai Jati Mal, Bhai Mati Das ji, Bhai Sati Das ji, Bhai Praga ji (Shaheed ancestor of Bhai Mati Das ji and Bhai Sati Das ji), Akali Kaur Singh ji, Bhai Mohar Singh ji (Shaheed at Battle of Amritsar in June 1984), Shaheed Bhai Jai Singh ji (who was skinned alive from toe to scalp) then all of a sudden "Sikhi is against caste system" and "They were only GurSikhs, not X,Y,Z". Some of my brothers and sisters will ask me to shut up and may even call me a fool. But fact is, when rules apply differently to different people, it is called hypocrisy. When this becomes widespread, it is called tyranny. When we condemn something about someone, its one thing. When that same thing becomes a part of our mentality and personality, it turns into a curse. Ok, time to delete that from my signature, enough said. Should have added Bhai Nand Lal Goya to the list as well. And I still choose to stick with this.

yes veerji u r right,sikhs were enslaved on this day in 1947

Sikh philosophy of karma is vastly different than that of Hindus, Jains and Buddhists. Mannu attributed caste system to karma in order to make it divine, rigid and unchangeable. Guru sahib rejected caste system altogether but does not mean He also rejected karma system. Guru Sahib offered the correct workings of the karma system and explained that it is not fixed, changeable and under the control of God. There is no such thing as collective karma of an entire community. I do not know why without ever properly understanding Gurbani people start rejecting karma. Gurbani must be understood on the basis of Gurbani alone not Hindu philosophy. Gurmat karma cannot be rejected on the basis of falsity of Hindu karma. This is a foolish approach. Holocausts happen due to wrong decisions made by the leaders as is clear from “Babar Vani” Shabads. Sikhs were killed because they were Sikhs. Karma works at an individual level where two people directly interact with each other. For example, when Abdali attacked and 30,000 Sikhs died as a result, it was not due to past karma of 30,000 Sikhs who had joined hands to kill Abdali in past life. This is ridiculous. Abdali made a decision based on his fanaticism and greed to control India. Even if for the sake of argument we assume that Abdali’s actions were due to the past karma, then it by no relieves him of the burden and responsibility of murdering 30,000 people. He acquired new karma and it was still a sin. Karma is not created to get even, seek revenge and kill people. Karma’s purpose is to motivate people to do good things because good deeds produce rewards. It is an exercise of free will rather than making a person a puppet at the hands of unjust false God. Agreed but this doesn’t repudiate karma system. Rejecting karma based on a false premise will not lead to a true conclusion. If we get rid of karma and claim that God alone is causing holocausts, poverty, destruction etc. then it makes Him unjust contrary to His very nature. Gurmat God is Just, Wise and All-loving. He cannot give unequal opportunities to people randomly. There has to be a basis and that is people’s karma. Material wealth etc. is due to past karma. Being born in the house of a Sikh is due to past good karma. It is a fact. In Gurbani, karma is always explained at an individual level for no two people have the same thought, deed, upbringing, birth, course of life etc. Therefore they will never have the same karma. God alone knows every intricate detail of karma but doesn’t mean karma is false. Guru Rakha

Thanks for the reminder to Sangat Chatanga Veer. The 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs in which 25% of our people were killed should never be forgotten. America was unhappy about 9/11 but imagine if the Muslims killed 80 million Americans today, only then would that give a sense of the brutal and unimaginable level of Genocide the Punjabi Muslims inflicted upon Sikhs in 1947. VanHel Singh Veer, the Sikhs were a one third minority in Majha, Malwa and Doaba. The Muslims were just as populous in these areas and had aims to include all of Punjab within Pakistan. When Muslims started to try ethnically cleanse Sikhs out of Amritsar (where there were more Muslims than Sikhs) only then did Sikhs start to defend themselves. In a war, there are innocent casualties on all sides but in the 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs one in four of our people in Pakistan were killed. One in twenty Muslims in east Punjab lost their lives, of whom the majority were rich so-called upper-caste Muslim Zamindar jihadi's who had attempted to lead the ethnic cleansing of Sikhs out of Indian Punjab. That is not to deny the suffering of around one in forty Punjabi Muslims who perhaps were not linked to the madness (but who had nevertheless voted for the inclusion of all Punjab under Muslim rule). Quite clearly, Sikhs suffered more than ten times as much pro-rata casualties as the Muslims. As we see in the 2nd World War, innocent Germans also died but the 25% of Sikh population that was killed in Pakistan is one of the worst holocausts in World History. The equivalent of if 80 million Americans were killed by Muslims today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlq2JgdUaHU The way we should commemorate the 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs is by increasing our own efforts towards the Sikh Panth's modern Dharam Yudh against drugs, sharaab, biraderi, abortion of females, cancer and illiteracy.

Who cares about our forefathers 100 generations back? Do not mind me saying this, but this isa total senseless topic/question !! Our people have this phobia of some kind of being labelled this or that.. be proud of YOUR sikhi that started in 1469.. Either our brothers/sisters are too easy to get manipulated by fake scholars or they simply enjoy drama by posting low quality dhundi type questions. Sorry for my rant !!!

Panthic unity Let us not beat about bush here.Let me ask you a question. You are a sikh. Are you a descendant of king ram chander. I guess you are not. Then why this crooked title of the thread" "Are Sikhs Descendant Of Hindu God Ramchander" Have you seen a Dasam Granth sahib.It is hundred times more critical about these figures than SGGS ji. Taran has posted those verses and you conveniently ignore those and hop to your propaganda agenda. Now let us suppose you are a Gill sub caste. Do you become descendant of KPS Gill or his dad. Think before you start such nonsense topics.

I suppose it boils down to what type of person you want to be. Everyones INTEPRETATION of bani is different you do not have the entire say so on what is and what isnt maryada etc. Now although i believe that a marriage in front of guru ji should be between man and a woman that is my PERSONAL interpretation and if said gay sikh was to question me i would advice him of the reasons why i BELIEVE that this is the reason. Sikhi is personal and for too long we have had a sant ji says this and sant ji intepreted this in his katha and thats what i believe we have become sheep to these "sants" or these more "learned" people and then we wonder why the youth leave sikhi in droves because they are forced out for asking questions. They barely know the basics because its so regimented now by the patronising people who run our gurdwara and committees. Read bani intepret for yourself be happy and everyone else who says no this is wrong or this isnt the correct way of doing this (not just in this issue) let them bark as they will never affect your life! Daya, Nimrata and Pyare are just some of the qualities that the majority of posters seem to miss on this forum (discounting Questioner/Neosingh/Mehtab Singh who always seem to exhibit these virtues and as such are the posters on this forum who actually change peoples minds or in other words bring people to the light)

We had a great seminar in california two weeks ago and followed it up at New york. Purpose was to break back of gurnindaks and we have fairly blunted their proapganda. Speech of Dr Harbhajan singh is a must to listen about these gurnindaks

Why do these opinionated folks stay in hiding when Gurbani Veechar is happening on this forum. Gurbani has been presented on this topic of homosexuality. Nobody needs your opinion on this topic. For the folks that ignored the thread that showed Gurbani speaking this topic, please take a look at this link: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/72415-revealed-the-so-called-uk-indian-gays-pushing-the-anti-sikh-agenda/page-3 And here is the Gurbani that speaks on this topic: ਪਥਰ ਪਾਲਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਖੁਸਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਘਰ ਵਾਸੁ ॥ ang 143

Exactly.Guru sahib denounces caste affiliations in his writings. But there are a few whose main work is to highlight this to create confusion among us. Seminar at san jose was a befitting slap on the face of such gurnindaks,

First thing the title is wrong - ram chander isnt a Hindu God - he was a historic Holy king during the treta yug(second age after Satyug) he is worshipped by Hindus in the modern age ----------------- Guru Gobind Singh ji briefly touches on the history of these dynasties and Panjab in Bachittar Natak There have been many dynasties, clans and lineages but at the end of this section describing ancestry, Guru Gobind Singh ji clarifies that they were all influenced by and a slave to maya and caused wars and strife due to their greed and lust.

Breaking News: 1 Day Before Independence Day, The Supreme Court on Wednesday rejected the review petition for Professor Devender Pal Singh Bhullar. Read More:http://dailysikhupdates.com/2013/08/14/supreme-court-rejects-prof-bhullars-plea/

at the end of the day we descended from the ancient punjabis , whether it was ram chander or krishan makes no difference, there's a lot of punjabis with greek blood also from the settlers of Alexander the great a simple analogy.... my dad was an alcoholic - doesn't make me one - i still descended from him he did some good stuff and some bad stuff, ....but I learnt from his mistakes and can tell people his story ....

I have watched a number of Bhai Sahibs videos and his knowledge of Gurbani and Sikhi considering he was born in the UK is something else. This one I rank very highly.

Ok found something online, can anyone verify this information below?

from the guys account i cant see where he says that being gay is acceptable or unacceptable he simply mentions it isnt expressedly forbidden (Waheguru seems not to impose limits on us instead letting us choose our way except for some bujjer kurehits) Hes not trying to alter maryadha or change your rehit he may be adjusting it for his lifestyle but dont we all some in bigger way then others, unless your strictly following maryada i mean down to the absolute T, then who are we to say he is wrong completely and im guessing if we all followed maryada we'd have a bit more love and compassion for someone we are supposed to treat as a brother

He is not a sikh ^^ but you are?? About time people started thinking themselves instead of allowing some random to tell you on a forum what is and what isnt rehat! how many people have actually read the particular shabad and understood it and then depending on your personal circumstances your interpretation will be different I for one dont think just because someone is gay you can say they are not sikh. Live and let live why we as sikhs feel we need to force maryada on people or force them into thinking our way i will never know. instead how about we all think about our own personal sikhi surely a better use of our time! I also find it very interesting that of all these posts only Questioners is worth listening to (it has subsequently become popular), a lot of the other posts are just negative and arguing without thinking about what your actually arguing about.

Brothers and sister, today is the day 1 of the Great Disaster, whereby 40% of the Sikh people suddenly became foreigners and unwanted in their ancestral homes and lands. The day where someone decided, the Sikhs will have to leave their beloved places of religion and history. Remember it, and spread it around.

I have always thought of Sikhi as a spectrum but have frequently come across those who want it black and white, yes and no. If you ban monay from asking or talking about Sikhi, how will they learn? If you do not embrace them into Sikhi, can you call yourself a Sikh? If you ban them from discussing or talking or learning about Sikhi, are you any different from those Brahmins who used to control the Hindu population? The same Brahministic control/mentality that Guru Maharaj fought against?

Deepa Heranwala was mona when he became shaheed.

I guess some of you guys are saying that you guys are better Sikhs than shaheed Harjinder Singh ji Jinda, Dilawar Singh ji, Balwant Singh Rajowana, Depa harenwale, etc. As they were money.

Guru maharaj never promoted segregation of any kind, everyone (spiritual seeker/good attributes-sikh or mona alike) was welcomed with open arms and love.. together gursikhs and sehaj dhari, sikhs, spiritual seekers all searched for spiritual truth, engaged in sadh sangat/sat sangat..surely everyone was at different state of mind, use different methods (gurbani,bhagti, shabad surat, gyan) in different different spiritual development stages but despite of diversity there was no disunity or dvaish(partiality) within sikhs of all different avastha because all consider guru maharaj as same and goal was same which is to connect with One (IkOngkar). My best freind is a mona.. one may be suprised but i am always learning something new (sikh is learner) about shabad surat from him whenever i see him ..he is been doing jaap of mool mantar since he was 14, right now he is listening to shabad dhuni (mool mantar) inside and at every advance stage of shabad surat marg which i rather not disclose but doing close to 5 hrs of naam bhyas every day so much so tribal cultish chelas at nanaksar did so much erkha against him because he was mona, he was told to sit in a corner as his sitting in meditation posture was "too distracting" to them -wth? Go figure....anyway, divine play is beautiful and it gives ones reality check when we least expect. i cannot speak for others but i don't consider myself better than moneh(all though i do admit i did in past) who is trying to connect with one, genuine spiritual seeker and slowly trying to take steps to improve their jeevan by applying sikh principles in sehaj as i came to understanding sikh means learner and is learning every day and i came to understanding recently all of us sikhs (regardless baptised or not) are in realm of panj chor/engaging in panj chor- some subtle, some little, some partial, some more thats until one gets their panj chor destroyed by guru maharaj kirpa and bhramgyan.

There is historical parsang in sri gur pratap nanak parkash/soraj parkash granth regarding karam theory and karam being of three different types of karam- sachit, kriaman and parlabdh karam. Here is more info about it: source: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/55009-brahm-gyan-english-part-1/

so sikh sakhaa ba(n)dhhap hai bhaaee j gur kaebhaanae vich aavai || He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will. (ang 601)

The same video ia also available here - http://www.prophetmuhammadillustrated.com/the-islamic-rape-of-the-u-k/

So then its Sikhs to blame, not Sikhi.

So what, the SIkhs killed hundreds of moghals, afghans in the other two ghallugharas.

I converted to sikhi, and i have been enjoying it since 5 months ago. I fell in love with sikhism after looking more deeply into it. I'm progressing quickly, the first day i came out of hiding, i stopped watching tv (except news), threw most of my computer games in the garbage, and became a vegetarian. Of course i still need more time, i still have to track down the 5 k's and learn how to pray to waheguru (if that's right). -Khalsa Starr